Any thoughts on this diamond?

[Iceman_India]

GIA: 1258769888

2.51 carat, seems to have a nice spread. Decent other specifications too.

Planning to see this in person, what to look for (novice here)? And how to judge a good price?

 

[Luce]

Welcome Iceman,

The crown angle is shallower than reccomended here but it does have a complimentary pavilion angle. I would also be concerned with the cavity on the table and the crystals under the table, it may not be eye clean.

 

[Luce]

Forgot to add, H color is nice, SI1.

 

[Iceman_India]

Thanks Luce. Aside from checking if it's eye clean, what else should I look for when I see it in person? How does the shallow crown you mention manifest itself in how it looks vs an ideal stone?

And any thoughts on how I should think about the price for a stone like this one?

 

[blueMA]

The stone will probably look quite bright, and if the price is good and performs well in various lighting (away from jeweler's light) then it could be a decent buy. Due to the shallower crown than optimal, you may notice less fire from the stone while noticing more white light return. Assuming the optical symmetry is good with decent H&A patterns, the spec still fits within the AGS ideals.

 

[Iceman_India]

Thanks blueMA. Is something like this stone a reasonable benchmark for that one, in terms of thinking about the right price?

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3639112.htm

 

[blueMA]

If a Whiteflash ACA choice is anywhere near the price of the stone you're paying at a B&M retail store, go with Whiteflash. The ACA stones are superideal precision cut stones, and the price actually comes at a premium for the offered quality. Whiteflash also offers a great upgrade policy.

 

[Iceman_India]

I'm seeing it at supposedly the wholesaler. Unsure how these 'wholesale' prices compare to websites.

Based on the stats for the two stones, is it your view that the WF one is meaningfully better? Such that unless the other one is 10% cheaper or more, I should avoid it?

 

[tyty333]

Thanks blueMA. Is something like this stone a reasonable benchmark for that one, in terms of thinking about the right price?

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3639112.htm

This WF stone seems to be at a pretty good price. I'm not seeing much markup for a branded super ideal compared to what JA has.

 

[blueMA]

I'm seeing it at supposedly the wholesaler. Unsure how these 'wholesale' prices compare to websites.

Based on the stats for the two stones, is it your view that the WF one is meaningfully better? Such that unless the other one is 10% cheaper or more, I should avoid it?

I can't recommend a stone without a photo nor Ideascope images by what's notated on a cert alone. If the price is less than 10% difference against an ACA, then you should choose the ACA if you want a sure performer.

 

[rockysalamander]

I'm seeing it at supposedly the wholesaler. Unsure how these 'wholesale' prices compare to websites.

At the risk of being pedantic....by definition, wholesale means "the sale of commodities in quantity" to others for resale. This vendor may or may not be selling at some margin between real wholesale and a full retail...now way to know. But, you (the retail public) are not buying at wholesale, you are buying at retail from a retailer.

 

[Iceman_India]

Thanks guys! Of course, I am aware that I am not going to be getting a wholesale price, which is why I use the quotes. The problem is that I won't know what a good price is.

For example, the one I posted has a pretty large diameter, for a 2.5 carat (I think). How does that translate into price vs the shallow crown?

As a novice, it is very hard to have the right benchmarks for how great a diamond is etc. Clearly the WF ones are great, based on everything I read here, but perhaps I need to go and check out some super ideal stones to have the right benchmarks.

 

[ringo865]

Hearts on fire has super ideal cut stones. They are called "wallets on fire" though because of their super inflated prices. So if yo have a HoF retailer near you - LEAVE YOUR WALLET AT HOME - and go there to see some ideal cut stones in varying colors and compare them to some of their non-ideal (but probably GIA excellent) stones. You can look (not buy) and compare at HoF side by side in person in one stop,

THEN, come back here and report what you preferred. People can then help you find super ideal, ideal, or excellent stones within your budget and other specs.

 

[Iceman_India]

Thanks Ringo. I looked it up online, and they don't seem to have a store in Manhattan. The ones that pop up are watch stores or Saks 5th Avenue, so not great. But might look to use the James Allen thing where they let you see three stones, and pick similar sized ones in the excellent, ideal and super-ideal categories. Thanks for the advice, and help so far!

 

[sledge]

I have no horse in this race, so I don't care what you buy but I will say if I was spending my own money on a 2.5ct stone, then I'd want images, certs, etc. so that I felt all warm & fuzzy and had sweet dreams about that damn diamond I'm buying.

I definitely wouldn't be paying money to bring in a stone. If said "wholesaler" wanted my business, I'd make them earn it or I'd take my cash elsewhere. They need to treat you like a valued client and not a customer that is only focused on getting your $.

If you listen to the advise here, you will learn you will get a cream of the crop stone from quality vendors that treat you with respect for pricing that most local guys can't compete against.

FYI, @Wink with HPD posted this on another thread, but I think you needed to hear it as well so I am quoting his post from the original thread:

I am going to have a different view than you have been given so far.

First, LOOK AT THE DIAMOND! Only your eyes will know if they look at it or not. If at all possible, ask your chosen jeweler to place at least two and preferably more diamonds on a slotted tray without telling you anything about the diamonds. Then, using only your eyes, pick your best or least favorite diamond. Almost all of my in house clients will pick out the least favorite and we keep going until there are only two or three and at that time the eye will choose THE ONE.

side note: It has been my experience, that if you are in a location that can show you both super ideal cut diamonds and generic cut diamonds that your eyes will immediately choose to delete the generic cut diamonds. In one five diamond comparison held in a retail store in Houston, there were three super ideal cut diamonds and two AGS0 cut diamonds that were significantly less expensive than the super ideals. I had been told not to bother sending the super ideals, as they were 10% more and there was no way it was worth the money. I told the client that he had to choose between the two non super ideals anyway, he might as well see what he was missing, as it was not costing him a dime. When the five diamonds were placed randomly on the tray, the client looked at them and commented that two of them just did not seem to sparkle as well as the other three. The jeweler removed them from the tray. Then the guy got a little gray around the gills and said, "Please don't tell me that those were the two I said I was going to choose from." They were. He bought the largest remaining diamond that was $500 cheaper than the other two because it was an SI1 that he told me not to bother sending because he had read that SI1 were not worthy. It was larger and thus had larger flashes of white and colored light and believe me, when it comes to sparkle, bigger is wonderful! Oh, he chose the largest one before he knew the prices.

end side note:

Nearly always, THE ONE will not be within the narrow parameters that were chosen by reading about the paper grades. Rather it will be chosen by your eye because of something within the diamond speaking to you about how perfect it is. Often it will be a slightly lower color than you thought you had to have, but significantly larger than you thought you could afford.

Since the vast majority of my business is not with local clients, I am always pleasantly gratified with the many reports from clients when they receive their diamonds that it is even more beautiful than they expected. This is even more gratifying when it is a client who has purchased a diamond from me, on approval, that is one or two color grades lower than they were "willing" to go in order to reach a minimum desired size.

Although almost everyone will tell you how important the color and clarity are, it is really about the CUT! Cut trumps all but the most egregious color and clarity issues.

Q color, the knee jerk reaction is YUCH! The truth is that it is a rich buttery warmth. Probably not for most, but as a recent thread here showed, a magnificent opportunity for something completely different than what you see every day.

D, E, F colors? Stark cold white, very expensive, very desired, yet in blind taste tests, not the most chosen. For those that do choose them, they are what their eyes liked best. One of my in-house clients looked wistfully at the J color and said, "I wish I could love that color, it is so much larger than this D. (I try to show similarly priced diamonds in these showings.)

This is why it is important that you allow your eyes to see and do the choosing rather than choosing what you have read is the best for you.

In my opinion, it is important to first look at the diamond, then look at the report to see what it is that you have chosen. It is only a piece of paper, and yes, if you love cut, it should most likely be an AGS0 cut grade unless you know enough about cutting to judge if the GIA report is at least in the neighborhood of a truly well cut diamond, not the 68% of all of the diamonds on the market that GIA says are Excellent cut. Trust me, do your research and you will soon agree that the GIA Excellent cut grade is only right a very small percentage of the time. The cutters make too much money cutting to fat semi lifeless numbers that they can sell "cheaper" per carat for a diamond that is very much not Excellent, in spite of the paper saying it is. If the cutter can cut it fat enough to cross a price break barrier, say 1.00 carat, they can sell the stone for MUCH more than it is worth while bragging about their low pricing. Please DO NOT be fooled by this.

Still the report is your friend, especially when it is correct in identifying the probable light performance of the diamond. If the mapping of the inclusions has been done correctly, it is also your friend in giving comfort, as you can use that report to verify that the diamond you get back after setting, or after having your ring sized is in fact the same diamond that you left with the jeweler. I always recommend to people that they look at their diamond under a microscope when they leave it with someone for work. If no microscope, go find a jeweler that has at least this basic piece of equipment. Let your jeweler know that you will be looking again when you pick it up. That way the jeweler knows that there will not be any wrongful claims of switching and you know that there will not be any switching. If the jeweler is insulted, repeat the act found just after no microscope.

As for clarity, hmmm? If you want a VVS or an IF, cool, get one. If you want an SI1 or SI2, fine, get one. If you want to tell me your definition of eye clean includes from the side, fine, tell me and I will tell you what I see. I will not waste my time arguing with you, but you should perhaps spend a little of your time looking at some SI1-SI2 diamonds from the top. If the side view that has barely discernible inclusions bothers you, then get a smaller diamond or a more expensive one at the size you want. Those are personal taste issues and I personally will try never to be guilty of trying to tell you what you "should" want. I should be better than that, so I know how hard "should" is.

What I do know however is this. When you are looking at diamonds without knowing what they are, you will NOT be able to see the difference between Flawless and VS2, and from the top, between Flawless and SI1and most SI2 unless you have incredible, way younger than me, eyes. I fondly remember the days when my close up without glasses vision was nearly 2x. I never could see well at ten inches without my glasses, but man, I could see the heck out of things at four inches.

So, when you look at diamonds, choose the one you like the best, will you suddenly hate it if it is an SI1? Perhaps. Some do. They even tell me that it is only in their minds, but I always respect the fact that it is their mind, not mine. Most, however, are grateful to have found the diamond that they love, at a size that is bigger than they thought they could afford and just change that mind clean thing to a more inclusive mind clean thing.

That choice, will be yours. You will however have seen some diamonds that you may or may not like that are possibly way different than anything you ever thought about seeing. When you are done choosing, most likely, you will be much happier than if you chose on paper first and only then saw the diamonds.

Wink

 

[Iceman_India]

Thanks Sledge!

The wholesaler is more than willing to show me the stone, and has generally been quite helpful. In fact, I have actually seen this stone, and quite liked it, in a line-up of about 10 stones. But my concern is that I don't have actually have eyes that are well-trained enough to know how good/bad it is, and I am ending up comparing stones with each other where none may be super-ideal.

Ideally, he would show me ideal and super-ideal stones right next to it, but I am doubtful that this will be the case. In any case, I intend to request that before my next visit to him (tomorrow).

If there is something I can do in terms of pictures etc to be able to get better advice here, pls let me know, but I don't think an iphone camera will be able to capture anything of value

 

[Rpb]

If you are in NY,you can get in touch with IDJ.com and ask them for PS standard diamonds with your requirements and see what they can come up with.
Also if you wish to see a super ideal, get in touch with Melissa from hpdiamonds.com and see if she can arrange for you to see the diamonds in person.