Any lawyers here? I could use some advice

[XChick03]

I have a situation and even though I'm a first year law student, this is something I'm really unsure about.

My great-grandmother, who some of you have already heard about, has just been "banned" from her church. Her faith is one of the only things she has left to hold onto and going to church is something she really enjoys. My grandfather called last night and told me about this situation and asked me if it was even legal. The preacher of the church told her not to ever come back and the people who live next door used to give her rides to church since she's unable to drive but now they refuse. When my grandfather called the preacher to ask him why he'd say such a thing, he said she was too much of a "liability" because if she fell at the church the family could sue. For one, people like this are the exact reason I stopped attending church. Southern Batptists (and I apologize if any of you are, I mean no disrespect) have always seemed highly judgemental and hypocritical to me, but this just seems ridiculous even to me. How can a preacher of all people, be more concerned with money than with an old woman, who won't live many more years, hearing the word of God she loves so dearly?

On the legalities of it, for one, I think he's being utterly ridiculous in saying the family would even have grounds for a lawsuit if she fell and injured herself. That's like saying if I went to McDonald's and got a headache I could sue them. Secondly, isn't it illegal to tell someone they can't attend church? I'm not sure on this, but it seems like a discremination issue to me, because they are saying that based on her age and phsyical condition. Am I wrong in this? Any help is very appreciated.


ETA I've e-mailed my criminal law professor but she's out of town for the week, and I really need to find out before then. Thanks again.

 

[indecisive]

I am def not a lawyer, but aren''t most churches private institutions, that can decide who can and can not be members? That does really suck though. Is there anyway your grandma could go to another church where there wouldn''t be so much animosity?

 

[XChick03]

Date: 3/2/2006 3:21:15 PM
Author: indecisive
I am def not a lawyer, but aren''t most churches private institutions, that can decide who can and can not be members? That does really suck though. Is there anyway your grandma could go to another church where there wouldn''t be so much animosity?

She could, but it wouldn''t be the same for her. She has friends, or so we thought, at this church and she doesn''t respond well to change.

I was thinking the same thing you are, but I believe that even privately owned places that provide a service, including chruches, can not discriminate. For example, they can limit their memberships, but not for reasons that could be deemed discrimination. I could be wrong though, thats why I''m asking.

 

[decodelighted]

I think that''s just reprehensible! Your poor great grandma!!! I''m not sure of the legalities, but I honestly think you should take your tale to the local press/tv news! I''m sure a lot of people would be outraged and maybe the whole discrimination system would be impacted. Probably wouldn''t help your g.g.''s situation too much because they''d be angry with your family for exposing their shenanigans publicly. Outrageous!

 

[FireGoddess]

Well THAT's not very Christian, is it? As I recall, Jesus interacted with lepers. But the church won't let your great-grandma in for fear of being SUED? That disgusts me, truly.

 

[XChick03]

Date: 3/2/2006 3:26:38 PM
Author: Virginia
I dont know the answer to your question. I just wanted to say that people like that give Christians a bad name. I am sorry this is happening to your grandmother. I would try finding a new Church....that is so sad. I have had bad experiences at Church and had to really evaluate what I believed. Not everyone at every church would be like that...you need to find another church that would be a better fit.... I will pray for your grandmother and your family as you go through this tough time. I hope you dont lose your faith over this incident...

Thank you very much for your kindness. I agree people this narrow-minded and petty give the entire religion a bad name. Sad to say, I don''t have much faith anymore, I haven''t for a while. But I don''t hold this, or anything else, against Christians as a whole. It just makes me sad that people could be more worried about money in a situation like this.

 

[XChick03]

deco, I''ve actually thought of that already, but I''d really like to know the legal issues before I make a move.

And FG, me too. I still can''t believe it. It just makes me so mad.

I forgot to add, the church is already threatening to get the state involved with my grandmother''s situation and have her forced into a nursing home. My grandfather already told the preacher that he''s trying to find a nice nursing home for her where she''d be well taken care of. I guess they think that by threatening us with this nonsense, we won''t act on their banning her or whatever. This whole thing is just ridiculous.

 

[lmurden]

This is outrageous!

The church may be a private institution but they certainly get federal and state funding!
Lets not forget about the money your grandmother has given to church either!

 

[Kaleigh]

Oh my, that is just awful. I can''t believe that a church would do such a thing. I can''t wait to hear what the lawyers on here have to say. Grrrrrr

 

[sslkrissi]

Hello,
Well, I am not technically a lawyer yet (I just took the Bar exam and don''t find out the results until 4/17/06). But, I think I may know a little about this. First off, churches are private institutions, so they can pretty much do whatever they want. Unless, there is some sort of state action, like the state funding the church or providing them with a building, etc. It is not likely that there is state action though b/c the state shouldn''t be getting entangled with religion. Ya know, separation or church and state? Anyways, if there was some state action, then it would be discrimination based on age (most likely), which is the easiest for the govt to do. They use the rational basis test which means that if the law/rule is rationally related to a legitimate purpose, then it is ok. Protecting yourself from a lawsuit by banning an elderly woman from church doesn''t seem to further any legitimate purpose to me. But, like I said before, if there is no state action, then none of this matters.

Well, that is just my take on it. If there are any other lawyers/law students out there, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. That is a really crappy thing that the church did to her. I hope you can find some way to help her out.

 

[E B]

XChick,

I am outraged, and she isn't even my great-grandmother. How dare a church ban a sweet elderly lady who's done it no harm. If you want someone to call and speak to this preacher, I will. He deserves a little piece of someone's mind.

ETA: I forgot to mention that my father is a lawyer. I'll mention this to him tonight and get back to you tomorrow!

 

[littlelysser]

X-Chick -

Hey there.

I'm a lawyer...and here are my thoughts...

Having done absolutely no research on this issue - my thoughts are this -

Is it rude and wrong? Yes. Are the making this decision based on her ago and condition? Yes. Is it illegal? No. The church isn't a state entity and it isn't your grandmother's employer... there are protections in place to prevent discrimination by those groups...but I just don't see where she would derive the cause of action.

And as much as I hate to say this, if your grandmother were to fall, the church could be liable, particularly if they were negligent in some way. Think of it this way...if you got a headache at McDonalds you couldn't sue them, but if you slipped on a milkshake that they negligently failed to clean up and hit your head and got a headache then they could be liable.

Add to that the fact the eggshell skull plaintiff rule (is that the name of it...graduated too long ago)...if you grandma got seriously injured in an accident (by say breaking a hip or something) that would have resulted in another person only getting a bruise, the church would be liable for all of her injuries, again if they were caused by the church's negligence.

Perhaps a way to settle this could be that your grandmother would agree to sign a waiver of any injuries that occur at the Church.

Those are my thoughts...although I must tell you I had a couple of other thoughts...

1. THere is something going on here other than a fear of injury on the part of the church. I could be wrong here...

2. This question should not be directed to your criminal law prof, as it deals entirely with civil issues.

Lyss

 

[belle]

Date: 3/2/2006 4:21:10 PM
Author: lmurden

The church may be a private institution but they certainly get federal and state funding!

in what form?

 

[belle]

xchick,
i am so sorry to hear this.

i wish there were a way your grandmother could continue to attend church. maybe this just means it''s time to find another place of worship.

 

[E B]

Date: 3/2/2006 4:56:47 PM
Author: belle
xchick,
i am so sorry to hear this.

i wish there were a way your grandmother could continue to attend church. maybe this just means it''s time to find another place of worship.

I agree. If the people who once gave her a ride refuse to now, she definitely needs to find a place that will welcome her with open arms. My 93 year old grandmother attends church every Sunday, and she loves it. I can''t imagine anyone banning her.

 

[fortheloveofdiamonds]

Wow! I will pray for your great-grandmother and your entire family Xchick. I think her church has lost its way and is more concerned with itself. I know where you must have "lost" your faith along the way Xchick. Religion or religious doctrine wants to impose certain rules upon the people. Some use their "church-going" status as a badge of honor. Some feel that because they go to church they are better than those who don''t. They label themselves as good and others non church goers as bad. This is religion. I don''t believe in religion. I believe that Jesus died to cleanse us of our sins and that when I believe in Him every sin I have past, present, and future is forgiven just by the mere fact that I believe. This is Christianity. Believing in the Lord''s promise. Lawsuits, money, and religious doctrine rule this church. Not God. I pray that she will receive the word of God somewhere else and that it won''t be tainted by selfish motives.

 

[XChick03]

Date: 3/2/2006 4:47:53 PM
Author: littlelysser
X-Chick -


Hey there.


I''m a lawyer...and here are my thoughts...


Having done absolutely no research on this issue - my thoughts are this -


Is it rude and wrong? Yes. Are the making this decision based on her ago and condition? Yes. Is it illegal? No. The church isn''t a state entity and it isn''t your grandmother''s employer... there are protections in place to prevent discrimination by those groups...but I just don''t see where she would derive the cause of action.
I assumed that much, I just wanted to check with someone who would know more than myself.


And as much as I hate to say this, if your grandmother were to fall, the church could be liable, particularly if they were negligent in some way. Think of it this way...if you got a headache at McDonalds you couldn''t sue them, but if you slipped on a milkshake that they negligently failed to clean up and hit your head and got a headache then they could be liable.


Add to that the fact the eggshell skull plaintiff rule (is that the name of it...graduated too long ago)...if you grandma got seriously injured in an accident (by say breaking a hip or something) that would have resulted in another person only getting a bruise, the church would be liable for all of her injuries, again if they were caused by the church''s negligence.

I suppose that could be true, given it was somehow caused by something they were repsonsilbe for. But what bothers me, is that they have several other elderly members who are in just as bad, if not worse shape than my grandmother. She doesn''t need a cane or walker and there are many members at this church that do. I just don''t understand it.

Perhaps a way to settle this could be that your grandmother would agree to sign a waiver of any injuries that occur at the Church.

I doubt they''d be willing to work with us at all.

Those are my thoughts...although I must tell you I had a couple of other thoughts...


1. THere is something going on here other than a fear of injury on the part of the church. I could be wrong here...
Its possible and actually, seems very likely, though for the life of me, I can''t imagine what. That is the only thing the preacher told my grandfather.

2. This question should not be directed to your criminal law prof, as it deals entirely with civil issues.
My criminal law professor is more than just that. She''s been a cop, a criminal defense attorney, a cooperate attorney, and is now judge who deals mostly with civil matters. So, she''s well-learned in every branch of the law, which is why I asked her.

Lyss

Thank you very much for your advice, you''ve been very helpful. And thank you so much for the kind words from everyone.

 

[littlelysser]

I''m sorry I couldn''t give you the answers you were hoping for...and there may be something you can do...I just don''t know what.

And I may be totally out of line here and entirely incorrect, but considering that the church wants to get the state involved and there seems to be some validity for their concern as your grandfather is considering placing her in a nursing home, perhaps there is something going on that impacts her ability to care for herself or handle herself at church...again, I could be entirely wrong here...but that might explain the church''s actions. Of course, the church could also just acting unreasonably...I don''t know...

 

[ladykemma]

wouldn''t a wheelchair solve the problem? unless she is senile/abusive?

 

[XChick03]

She doesn''t have any problem walking.

 

[Mr Majestyk]

"How can a preacher of all people, be more concerned with money than with an old woman, who won''t live many more years, hearing the word of God she loves so dearly?"

Good question. This conduct is egregious and totally reprehensible for one who has pledged to minister to the people. What, only the healthy ones?

I''d find a new church. Who needs that attitude?

 

[MissGotRocks]

My guess too is that there is more going on than meets the eye. Just what that is I can''t say because I don''t know the whole situation but that seems like a thin excuse for banning an older woman from worship. Even if they were sued, they have insurance.

If the minister was a true Christian, he''d be going to pick her up every Sunday. Shame on him - when the organization of religion prohibits the fellowship of religion then the church and the minister need to take a cold, hard look at themselves and what they represent.

I am sorry for her - and am truly appalled at this story.

 

[princessv]

Just a lowly 2L here but my first thought (after being appalled that the preacher would say that to your great grandmother) is that can individuals really bring suit against a church for a negligent/tortious issue? I would have thought that they may have some immunity from suits unless it was infringing on a religious 1st amendment type issue.

XChick I hope everything works out in the end...that''s so terrible about the church. Yuck...btw I''m from SC as well and was raised Catholic so was more or less an outcast in my community of Southern Baptist high school kids.

 

[hlmr]

Date: 3/2/2006 9:07:55 PM
Author: MissGotRocks
My guess too is that there is more going on than meets the eye. Just what that is I can''t say because I don''t know the whole situation but that seems like a thin excuse for banning an older woman from worship. Even if they were sued, they have insurance.

If the minister was a true Christian, he''d be going to pick her up every Sunday. Shame on him - when the organization of religion prohibits the fellowship of religion then the church and the minister need to take a cold, hard look at themselves and what they represent.

I am sorry for her - and am truly appalled at this story.

Amen to that missgotrocks!!!

XChick I am sick to my stomach thinking about your great-grandmothers plight. It is so awful. Have you considered contacting the preacher directly to ascertain what is really going on here?

Heather

 

[scarleta]

Really sorry to hear this... How about involving other church members in this? You may be able to get lots of support.... keep us posted ..

 

[Mara]

xchick i may be going off of faulty memory but doesn't your grandmother have alzheimers? or something like that? possibly it's something to do with her condition while at church? could she be forgetting and getting scared or belligerent or something and maybe this is just a thin excuse for them not wanting her there aka 'to deal with her' anymore?

i'm not super familiar with churches or that whole thing but that was just a random thought. i find it very odd that they would suddenly ban her when others are there that are as old as she is and even just to ban her to begin with? just seems strange for a church and for a preacher to be behind supporting it. i'd also look for some other reason than what you have been told.

 

[XChick03]

Date: 3/2/2006 9:38:25 PM
Author: hlmr


Amen to that missgotrocks!!!


XChick I am sick to my stomach thinking about your great-grandmothers plight. It is so awful. Have you considered contacting the preacher directly to ascertain what is really going on here?


Heather

Yes, I think I am going to give him a call. I just wanted to find out more before I did that.

As for everyone who thinks there''s more than meets the eye, I agree but that''s the only thing he told my grandfather. At first, I thought maybe she''d fallen and gotten hurt and they just said it because of that, but one of the ladies who attends the church called me an hour or so ago. I''ve known her since I was very young, but I''ve never trusted her. I can''t explain why really, she''s just always seemed a little shady to me. She claims that nothing like that happened and the church just decided it''d be better if she didn''t come anymore.

Though, this same woman called my grandfather, who lives 60 miles away, a few months ago and told him that my grandmother was driving on the wrong side of the road on a busy highway and that she was pulled over by a cop. My grandfather and I bought thought this was fishy as soon as we heard because 1. My grandma doesn''t even how to get to that road. In fact, I had to drive her anytime she had to go somewhere near there and 2. This is a very, very busy highway and I''m sure she''d had gotten in an accident if that was true. At the time, I was an undergrad majoring in criminal justice and several of my teachers were cops. So, I had one of the higher ups, Lt. Col. of the Charleston PD check into it and no there was no report even related to something like that occurring on that highway.

So, I really just don''t know who to believe except for what the preacher told my grandfather. If I still lived in Charleston, I''d just go to the church myself and ask.

 

[XChick03]

Date: 3/2/2006 10:16:41 PM
Author: Mara
xchick i may be going off of faulty memory but doesn''t your grandmother have alzheimers? or something like that? possibly it''s something to do with her condition while at church? could she be forgetting and getting scared or belligerent or something and maybe this is just a thin excuse for them not wanting her there aka ''to deal with her'' anymore?


i''m not super familiar with churches or that whole thing but that was just a random thought. i find it very odd that they would suddenly ban her when others are there that are as old as she is and even just to ban her to begin with? just seems strange for a church and for a preacher to be behind supporting it. i''d also look for some other reason than what you have been told.

Yes, she does have alzheimers, but its never affected her at church. At least, not before. I''m just going to have to call the man and ask him more. Though, I''m not sure he''d be willing to share anything else besides what he already said. It seems very odd to me, though. If he did have other reasons, why would he pick such a stupid thing to tell my grandfather? The whole thing really baffles me, honestly.

 

[Mara]

well not to be belligerent but how do you know it hasnt affected her at church? maybe no one has said anything? maybe an incident just happened?

anyway, maybe the preacher told your grandfather that thinking he wouldn't question it, maybe not knowing that you'd get involved? sometimes people do tend to take advantage of older people or think they are not as intelligent just because they are older. could the church somehow be involved in something and your grandma found out and then forgot it but they are afraid she will remember and rat them out?

sheesh i have been watching WAY too much alias....anyway just throwing stuff out there. it may be all wrong.

 

[XChick03]

Date: 3/2/2006 10:21:46 PM
Author: Mara
well not to be belligerent but how do you know it hasnt affected her at church? maybe no one has said anything? maybe an incident just happened?


anyway, maybe the preacher told your grandfather that thinking he wouldn''t question it, maybe not knowing that you''d get involved? sometimes people do tend to take advantage of older people or think they are not as intelligent just because they are older. could the church somehow be involved in something and your grandma found out and then forgot it but they are afraid she will remember and rat them out?


sheesh i have been watching WAY too much alias....anyway just throwing stuff out there. it may be all wrong.

Well, I supposed I don''t what''s happened recently, but when I lived there, it was never an issue. And not to be rude or disrespectful, but I think I''ve just decided the preacher is a moron and I don''t think the church collectively, could pull off any sort of a scandal. The average member is over 70 years old and it''d be like the moronic leading the elderly.