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Antique cushion experts - what's the difference?

nanarama

Rough_Rock
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Nov 7, 2010
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19
I've watched a few of the GOG cushion videos but I got totally overwhelmed!

What is the difference between a vintage cushion, a chunky cushion and an "august" vintage cushion... are they all the same thing?? Do they all show as "Old Mine Brilliant" on a GIA certificate?

What would you consider the best type antique cushion (best sparkle factor)? Do all antique cushions have a large culet and is this a good thing?
 

Rockdiamond

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Hi nanarama,
The GIA terminology is "Old Mine Brilliant"- every other name mentioned is a trade name created by a seller, or a generic description.

There are many variations on the Old Mine Brilliant theme- some of them are discussed in this thread
 

ame

Super_Ideal_Rock
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The August Vintage is a brand and cut developed and cut by GOG, only through GOG. Those are new and designed to look antique but are not actually antiques.
 

Rockdiamond

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ame- please read the thread I linked to- it explains who cuts different stones.
There are virtually no cases of retail sellers cutting their own diamonds- but there are cutters who do cut specific cut stones for specific sellers.
 

ame

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I might have missed who actually cuts the AVC, but it's still GOG's design and cut parameters that its cut to, they own the design, IIRC and they have a specific cutter/facility cut them to that design and parameter, correct? I would like to think most people know that Jon's not back there actually physically doing the cutting himself.
 

J_Rock

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Mar 17, 2011
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ame|1313523922|2992057 said:
I might have missed who actually cuts the AVC, but it's still GOG's design and cut parameters that its cut to, they own the design, IIRC and they have a specific cutter/facility cut them to that design and parameter, correct? I would like to think most people know that Jon's not back there actually physically doing the cutting himself.
LOL...I read this comment and immediately had the thought of someone calling GOG wishing to speak with Jon, only to get a response like "Jon cannot talk right now because he is busy cutting a new chunky cushion for a new video he's planning to shoot for a client"
 

ame

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I can picture it now! "Im sorry, the master is back in the workshop grinding away a perfect new AVC for a new video in which he wears a single glove and does the Michael Jackson Heee heee! Would you like to speak to Sarah or leave a message?"
 

Rockdiamond

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Actually, I don't think it's practical to "claim" ownership of a given diamond cut design.
If you read the thread I linked to, the cutter of the stones is participating ( Yoram- aka Diagem)
Once it's out there, competitors can buy one, and reverse engineer similar designs- even virtually identical designs.
 

ame

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Right, but then you get into patents and copyrights. And if it turns up on the market, and there's a purchase trail anywhere obviously found, that's pretty easy to prove.

I read the thread, and must have missed where Yoram claimed to be the cutter. I don't doubt that he is, but I just don't see him mention it.
 

Rockdiamond

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DiaGem|1313271024|2990257 said:
NARRISHKEIT|1313199236|2989781 said:
You asked for another example I gave you one.
I thought you might have cut the AVC as well but I guess you have chosen not to answer that one.
It's not another example, those two examples are actually opposites as far as objectives. One wishes it was a Lighter shade closer to colorless and the other wishes it was darker into Fancy territory. And the differences in the pictures you posted above clearly show that. Two different cutting objective on similar type material and facet design.
Regarding the second question..., since it was asked in public I feel obliged to acknowledge and answer.
Back in late 2008 when Jon (GOG) approached me and asked  if I would be willing to join efforts with him into developing a new consistently cut chunky cushion while combining both my knowledge in the Cushion cut arena and his extensive knowledge of Light behavior, I took his offer on but wished to stay behind the scenes for personal interests. Jon respected those wishes.

So to your question..., yes I am the cutter of the AVC you posted above.

Since I made the decision to slowly increase public exposure of my works, I would like to take this opportunity and inform of a new cushion brilliant I just completed the design and cutting of, this new cushion brilliant achieves the AGS 0 Light Performance grade while taking in account other important factors needed to compliment the light behavior of a cut Diamond.  I am hoping it will be released soon.
In terms of protecting patents- it's already been tried, and failed by Henry Grossbard, the inventor of the Radiant Cut. It's not practical for many reasons.
ETA: More accurately stated- Henry won in court, but it was not a win that provided any gain to him- the settlement was entirely eaten up by legal costs. Moving forward it became very apparent that it was not practical to protect this type of patent.
 

ame

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Ah, there it is. One liner. Thanks.

I think it's quite unfortunate that a patent and copyright cannot be easily and fiercely protected for cuts like that, radiant, etc.
 

Rockdiamond

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I disagree Ame.
When designs are "open source" it allows others to improve on the design.
Since it's not possible to protect cut design patents, open source is the rule of the road
 

NARRISHKEIT

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Rockdiamond said:
Actually, I don't think it's practical to "claim" ownership of a given diamond cut design.
If you read the thread I linked to, the cutter of the stones is participating ( Yoram- aka Diagem)
Once it's out there, competitors can buy one, and reverse engineer similar designs- even virtually identical designs.
It seems nowadays several PS advertisers select from general inventory, slap their name or trademark on it and call it a "branded" diamond. ERD A Cut Beyond, Leon Antique Cushions and several round vendors come to mind. Obviously these PS vendors cannot claim they own the design as they had practically nothing to do with it, other than to select from general polished inventory.

As for your "Antique Cushion Brand" the application of Diagem's Vintage Cushion design by him to pale yellow (cape?) rough (with attention to color uniformity and saturation) is hardly groundbreaking or unique enough to qualify for patent protection. The "brand" has no unique optical signature nor a strict set of proportions or signature appearance, not nearly enough to differentiate itself from Diagem's prior work or the work of other cutters who cut vintage faceted colored diamonds.

This is in sharp contrast to Rhino's AVC design which has been executed by Diagem and by other cutters. Rhino was intimately involved in the optimization of angles and the optics of the design from the very beginning and is also involved with QC to ensure a tight control of the light return properties and signature of the brand.

Despite what you might "claim" some vendors and companies spend the time and money on R&D to develop or optimize cuts of diamonds and cutters may play a smaller role in the process. The companies can rightfully claim ownership of a design and a patent.They don't just slap their name on a cutter's prior work for marketing and sales purposes. You certainly should not be speaking for him or for other brand owners.

You are also not a lawyer and shouldn't brush with broad strokes the application of patent law based on your limited knowledge of the case(s) involving The Radiant Cut. Some patents have serious teeth and its ignorant to think otherwise, try testing Tiffany's or Cartier's patents and see where it gets you.
 

NARRISHKEIT

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nanarama said:
What is the difference between a vintage cushion, a chunky cushion and an "august" vintage cushion... are they all the same thing?? Do they all show as "Old Mine Brilliant" on a GIA certificate?

What would you consider the best type antique cushion (best sparkle factor)? Do all antique cushions have a large culet and is this a good thing?

vintage cushion = general term for older cut design usually with shorter fatter pavilion main facets
chunky cushion = term to describe larger virtual facets on a cushion (larger flashes of light)
August Vintage Cushion = Branded vintage and chunky cushion optimized for high angle light return and brightness sold exclusively by GoodoldGold.com

You may find that diamonds with any of the three desctiptions above may be called Old Mine Brilliant or Cushion Brilliant by GIA.

More information found here.

There is no best, some stones are brighter than others but in terms of scintillation (on/off flash) some prefer more smaller flashes some prefer fewer larger ones.

No not all antique cushions have a large culet, a culet is like a window, light passes through so it looks like a hole and the hole can be reflected onto other facets. A culet is generallly considered an integral part of vintage facet designs and part of the charm and general appearance of the older cut style, but since many of these are recently cut they come with culet sizes from none to Extremely Large.
It is very much up to buyer preference if they want a large culet or not.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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NARRISHKEIT|1313571230|2992478 said:
Rockdiamond said:
Actually, I don't think it's practical to "claim" ownership of a given diamond cut design.
If you read the thread I linked to, the cutter of the stones is participating ( Yoram- aka Diagem)
Once it's out there, competitors can buy one, and reverse engineer similar designs- even virtually identical designs.
It seems nowadays several PS advertisers select from general inventory, slap their name or trademark on it and call it a "branded" diamond. ERD A Cut Beyond, Leon Antique Cushions and several round vendors come to mind. Obviously these PS vendors cannot claim they own the design as they had practically nothing to do with it, other than to select from general polished inventory.

As for your "Antique Cushion Brand" the application of Diagem's Vintage Cushion design by him to pale yellow (cape?) rough (with attention to color uniformity and saturation) is hardly groundbreaking or unique enough to qualify for patent protection. The "brand" has no unique optical signature nor a strict set of proportions or signature appearance, not nearly enough to differentiate itself from Diagem's prior work or the work of other cutters who cut vintage faceted colored diamonds.

This is in sharp contrast to Rhino's AVC design which has been executed by Diagem and by other cutters. Rhino was intimately involved in the optimization of angles and the optics of the design from the very beginning and is also involved with QC to ensure a tight control of the light return properties and signature of the brand.

Despite what you might "claim" some vendors and companies spend the time and money on R&D to develop or optimize cuts of diamonds and cutters may play a smaller role in the process. The companies can rightfully claim ownership of a design and a patent.They don't just slap their name on a cutter's prior work for marketing and sales purposes. You certainly should not be speaking for him or for other brand owners.

You are also not a lawyer and shouldn't brush with broad strokes the application of patent law based on your limited knowledge of the case(s) involving The Radiant Cut. Some patents have serious teeth and its ignorant to think otherwise, try testing Tiffany's or Cartier's patents and see where it gets you.
You seem so familiar Narrikeshet- have you ever posted here before under a different name?

No, I''m not a lawyer, although my very good friend Stan Grossbard is.
I've had very lengthy discussions about patents- and how this applies to diamonds.
Do you know where these cushions are cut?
Where would you apply for the patent?
Is there such a thing as a worldwide patent?
If you have a patent in the US for a facet design, how can you prevent cutters in Israel, India, China, Russia, etc from cutting copies?
If you have a patent for a facet design, and a cutter changes one small facet or angle, it then becomes a different design- could you protect against that?
How much does it cost to protect a patent?
Can you point us toward a successful defense of a patented cut design?

The term "optical signature" is a commercial descriptive- like "Snap Crackle Pop", it has NO scientific meaning whatsoever.
There is NO distinct physical aspect which could be used- like DNA, or fingerprints- to identify a given diamond.
EVERY diamond has an "optical signature" - all that means is how it looks.
Like my optical signature- which could lose 15 pounds :naughty:

There are stones that are incredibly similar to your favorite brand on the market being sold by others. So similar visually that they are indistinguishable to the naked eye.
There are many amazing Old Mine Brilliant Cushions being cut today- the difference consumers can see is who is selling them.

What you CAN prevent is someone else advertising a diamond using the same name as your favorite seller. What a seller CAN do is offer more information- better guarantees- and customer service assocaited with that diamond- and in doing so that seller can create a "brand"
Do you work for them by the way? How would you know that the brand you refer to is cut by other cutters beside Yoram?

More on cutting, and brands and how they relate to sellers:
How much input does any seller have into the design of their branded stones?
If one is not a diamond cutter, wouldn't it be more of the retail seller approving a design created by a cutter- as opposed to designing the specifics themselves?

**edited by moderator. please recall our policies on self promotion here**

Since I'm in the Fancy Colored Diamond business, they will be a GREAT interest to me!
 

Cehrabehra

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Ugh, seriously? You blatantly brought your **edited** brand into this thread, isn't that against the rules here?
 

Ella

Brilliant_Rock
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I apologize for the intrusion but a previously banned poster has been trying to provoke PS members and staff.

If this individual comes back please report them immediately. Thank you for your assistance in keeping PS a great place. :))
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Thanks ella!
It really felt like I was in a time warp or something....lol


AS we were discussing patents- does anyone know if any of the brands under discussion are actually patented?


It seems nowadays several PS advertisers select from general inventory, slap their name or trademark on it and call it a "branded" diamond. ERD A Cut Beyond, Leon Antique Cushions and several round vendors come to mind. Obviously these PS vendors cannot claim they own the design as they had practically nothing to do with it, other than to select from general polished inventory.
Also- NAKARASHETT also made disparaging comments about branded cushions of some other well respected sellers.
Those comments were totally out of line as well- that individual does not have knowledge about how those designs were created, or where any of the sellers he impugned get their branded stones.
 
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