Anti-Engagement Ring???

[trillionaire]

Date: 6/5/2008 9:40:55 AM
Author:LitigatorChick
An interesting article... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080605.wring05/BNStory/lifeFamily/home

Thanks for posting this article! I think expectations nowadays are ALL over the board. My friend, from a family with not much money, is adamant about a 2ct ring, but has been dating someone off and on who has VERY little money. (she did say, however, that she would be willing to help pay...) He is very stressed by her expectation.

I have another friend who got engaged right out of college with a 10K ring, before an elaborate 200+ person wedding, which they paid for. Sounds very extravagant to me. I want a 1 ct Trillion solitaire, but have no qualms about how much we pay to get it I have seen very reasonable stones of decent cut, color and clarity for well under 5K, and I think that is reasonable for my SO's salary range. FAR less than 2 months salary, if that is the "rubric". He got a motorcycle, on a whim, that cost more than the ring I have my eye on.

And if he wasn't buying me my dream ring, I would just buy it for myself. An e-ring is a wonderful gift, but nothing that I wouldn't treat myself to

 

[LtlFirecracker]

It is an interesting article. I remember when a friend of mine was starting med school and he proposed to his GF with a 2 ct ring. His reasoning, I am only doing this once, and I want to do it right. She of course accecpted, but told him she was expecting a band and would have been happy with that (and she was from a wealthy family). Several years later, still married and doing well with 2 kids, she never wears the ring. They are still happy because she chose to be with him because he would provide her with love and support, and that was all she ever expected. I think with our current media centered culture, people feel that the only way to be happy is by obtaining material items and they forget the truely important things in life.

 

[rockzilla]

Date: 6/5/2008 8:43:52 PM
Author: softly softly

Date: 6/5/2008 2:07:22 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady
Sorry about the threadjacking...I easily wonder off on a tangent. Rockzilla, you are right. They were in management consulting, he went to harvard bus. school and now she''s going as well and the cost of a 2 carat ring seemed like a drop in the bucket compared to their overall grad school debt. He did take out an extra school loan for the ring. The thing is that it works for them and they plan to upgrade after graduation. To each his own!

But isn''t this the sort of irresponsible borrowing that has contributed to the current crisis in debt management? I''m sorry, but I really struggle to understand the concept of spending money you assume you will be making in the future. And what good is earning a good wage if a large portion of it is eaten up in interest on loan repayments. My dad always tells me that it isn''t what you earn, but how much you save that counts and the older I get the more sense this makes. I''m all for enjoying the fruits of your labour, but shouldn''t the labour part come first???

It''s not any more irresponsible than taking out huge home equity loans for granite-countered kitchens and assuming that it will be paid for by the increase in you are expecting in the value of your home? Many people I know going to bschool with a guarenteed job offer coming out.

Its an example of the economic concept known as income smoothing. For example, people take out student loans with the expectation that their income will be greater after college, and thus they''ll be able to pay back the loans for both tuition and room and board. If you had to save up the entire cost of college and cost of living for 4 years before going, its unlikely you would ever go. On the other hand, you presumably are saving up throught your working years to pay for your retirement.

I''m going to play devil''s advocate here. Obviously its advantageous to keep spending to a minimum during the time you''re not working, but if you know (and a lot of people have offers after summer internships, etc) you''ll be getting, say, a $20k signing bonus upon school completion, why not get your fiance the ring they are dreaming about? Sure, there''s always going to be something more responsible to spend ir on or save it for, but you can apply that logic to anyone. I think the majority of people on this board could think of several more "responsible" things to do with the money they spend on their ring (whether it is saving for retirement, saving for a rainy day, giving to charity, etc.)

 

[2Artists]

Very interesting article. I think that the ring is a matter of being simpatico. If your guy can only do a blade of grass or a wooden ring or a simple band then accept it with the heart and love that it was given with. The person you love giving you their whole heart is priceless. A simple well thought out band is quite romantic with a sweet inscription. Swoon. On the other hand if rings and jewelry were your thing and the guy was rolling in it and blows lots of money on himself all the time and got you a piece of crap (he put no thought whatsoever) into then I can see that there could be a leetle problem. Simple ring from a just starting out student or artist or writer or musician- perfectly fine very dear and sooo priceless. Simple ring from a guy similar to Donald Trump-that could be potentially raise a few eyebrows unless that is just the thing you asked for and wanted. In which case rock on. By the way did any of the rest of you read any of the comments on the article link? Wow!

 

[HollyS]

The article actually makes some valid points. The expectations concerning everything ''bridal'' have become skewered by media, celebrities, and the industries which stand to make a huge profit.

However, don''t we already know this stuff? How many books and articles will be written as backlash against ''the wedding machine''?

 

[Bev]

Very interesting article. It does amaze me how much people are willing to pay for an engagement ring. Dh paid a little over $2,000 for my ring because that is what we could afford at the time. I am a believer of spending what you can afford right now, but really...to each his/her own. Some people like taking out loans for houses or cars...and some like to take out loans for rings.

 

[2Artists]

Years ago I read that when your guy gives you a gift you should picture all the trouble he went to to pick it out. Just picturing all the work that went into it and how they thought about you and worked so hard to make you happy melts my heart. And if he didn''t pick it out then picture how hard he worked to earn it. Very sweet.

That would be sad if some poor guy did his very very best and got turned down for a ring not being expensive enough. Love him for him-he is not a $$goodie pinata right? LOL.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 6/6/2008 6:08:59 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
It is an interesting article. I remember when a friend of mine was starting med school and he proposed to his GF with a 2 ct ring. His reasoning, I am only doing this once, and I want to do it right. She of course accecpted, but told him she was expecting a band and would have been happy with that (and she was from a wealthy family). Several years later, still married and doing well with 2 kids, she never wears the ring. They are still happy because she chose to be with him because he would provide her with love and support, and that was all she ever expected. I think with our current media centered culture, people feel that the only way to be happy is by obtaining material items and they forget the truely important things in life.

I think this is why it''s so important to discuss the ring and the budget together as a couple. When DH and I started discussing a ring, his budget and my budget were very different--if he had spent as much as he''d budgeted, I would have accepted it with love, but I would have been frustrated with him spending too much. We sat down and went over our priorities which were 1. To buy a home without taking out a mortgage 2. To always have enough stashed to buy a new vehicle if need be, to go to graduate school if we wanted (no loans for either) 3. To retire early!

An engagement ring and wedding simply were not priorities to me because being in our twenties and just starting out in life, we wanted to stay focused on these other financial goals first, especially since we''d been working very hard and saving all we could for nine years. Every penny we spent on anything engagement or wedding-related, was a penny away from something more important.

This is why both people need to be on the same page. If an e-ring is the number one priority and both people are aware of the sacrifices they have to make to get it and they are both completely willing to make those sacrifices, then so be it. Nobody on PS would ever recommend going into debt for a ring, because that''s just...well, not smart. There''s a reason why wealthy people are wealthy (unless they inherited the wealth) and that''s because they are good with their money. Paying interest on something you can''t afford is a bad financial choice, no matter how you slice it.

 

[GemView]

te:[/b] 6/6/2008 5:42:02 AM
Author: Pandora II

I''m so sorry, I have spinal stenosis and two herniated discs on top of that.


I''ve had one lot of surgery that reduced the pain and paralysis is my left leg by about 40%, and two other lots that did nothing. It''s now back again and in both legs this time. Sadly they won''t operate again for 15 years because of my age and the newness of artifical discs. They also took away a lot of bone the first time.


I now have Had a permanent cocktail of Tramadol and Lamotrigine and add in 60mg of codeine and 10mg of amitrypriline as and when I need it for the last 5 years. I do pretty well on it, but I couldn''t live without it. I used to be on 60mg of morphine a day for 2 years, which I still went to work on, but made me feel completely out of it!


I''ve been on just about every pain management course existing with no real results. I''ve resigned myself to the meds and at least I have a near to normal life. That said, it''s driving me nuts this morning! It''s one of those can''t sit, can''t stand, hop around and can''t stop moving my feet mornings. Grrrrrrr


I know only too well how crippling it can be - and to make things worse you look so well that people don''t realise how disabling it can be![/quote]


I can relate to absolutely everything you''ve said, Pandora. Isn''t it awful?

My back pain has been going on nearly 10 years and like you, I''ve been through pain management and PT as well. The epidurals made a significant dent in the nerve pain but I still have debilitating flares at times. The pain management was of no help to the degenerative disc pain, however. One of the discs is ruptured and there is degenerative disc disease at that level as well as above and below that. One doctor wanted to implant an artificial disc, another surgeon insisted I would still have pain unless they fuse the last three levels of my lower back. The doctor who was willing to implant the artifical disc was very prestigious, but admitted on a consult that he was collecting royalties for implanting the devices. I held off only to learn a year later that the Department Of Justice gone after the device maker as well as just about every other orthopedic implant manufacturer operating in the US because they were paying surgeons who used their products illegal kickbacks.

Everyone who I know who has had back surgery has, unfortunately, required multiple surgeries over the years. Initially the situation improves and/or stays about the same but a few years down the line they are the same or worse than they were prior to surgery. I have been told there is a 1/3 chance of recovering, 1/3 chance of staying the same, 1/3 chance of getting worse. But rarely is an improvement 100 percent. In my own research, I learned that surgeons consider back surgery a success if the pain reduction is as little as 20 percent! Meanwhile, I''ve had a multitude of anti-inflammatory and prescription pain medications thrown at me that gradually ulcerated my stomach lining. Next, I began breaking out in hives and had to stop using all OTC and prescription Asprin-related anti-inflammitories (NSAIDS). I can still take Tramadol but it isn''t cutting it. However, I don''t have the cocktail you mentioned --- maybe that''s the problem. The pain management clinic wanted to put me on the Duragesic patch but the insurance only covers generics, and the generics have been known to kill people (resulting in numerous FDA warning label revisions). I wouldn''t be surprised if it is taken off the US market soon. No thanks!

Exactly as you mentioned, people who see me can''t imagine a problem because there''s nothing outwardly to see (but for looking a bit stiff). The irony is that I once dated a fellow who was blind from birth and he had trouble with people assuming he couldn''t do certain things for himself when, in fact, he was gainfully employed and living on his own. He carried around this mental map in his head and never forgot where anything was and never got lost (knew all the compass points just by what little light he could perceive outdoors). Once we toured a historic Victorian home in my area and later had a debate about the layout of the house. He won. By contrast, I have the opposite problem. People think I''m fine because I look fine. Looks are deceiving, however. Sometimes I wish there were an online support group for people enduring this year after year. There comes a point where nobody else can relate except people who have been there. It''s good to know your not alone and to trade ideas on what techniques or medications are most successful. Not to get too far off topic, but if you know of any such group please post the link!

 

[GemView]

Date: 6/6/2008 6:08:59 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
... Several years later, still married and doing well with 2 kids, she never wears the ring. They are still happy because she chose to be with him because he would provide her with love and support, and that was all she ever expected. I think with our current media centered culture, people feel that the only way to be happy is by obtaining material items and they forget the truly important things in life.

I think that blind guy in the article who literally killed his wife-to-be for not wearing her e-ring should not have been cited as an example. That fellow was just nuts. If it wasn't the ring, he would have killed her for burning his toast.

On the other hand, if a woman is lovingly given a 2 carat ring and doesn't wear it, as is apparently the case with the friend you mentioned, I can understand if a husband in that circumstance felt a bit hurt (not sure if that was the case here). Just the same, he should have found out if she were the jewelry loving type to begin with. Some women shun jewelry. I have a sister, for example, who has been wearing the same gold ball earrings since high school and doesn't wear any other form of jewerly. I thought she would take her engagement ring off because she just doesn't care for jewelry, but she wears it because of its symbolism. Meanwhile, many other women go gaga over jewelry and would wear it whether they had to buy it for themselves or wait for the proposal. In fact, I would guess that the type of people who are inclined to join PS are potentially more appreciative of such gifts than average.

If the gift giver knows that the recipient will appreciate the gift, then the purchase of a diamond and how it is paid for is really a personal decision that nobody on the outside looking in is really in a place to judge. Reading the Globe and Mail website comments, however, revealed a lot of judgmental attitudes. It seems some of people find it impossible to believe that the desire for a diamond can't be attributed to a De Beers marketing campaign or materialism for materialism's sake. Rather, a decision to buy a diamond engagement ring may be more indicative of the symbolism or the aesthetic qualities of such a gift.

I draw the line at women who openly deride their man for buying a rock that is too small. That's just plain tacky. But even there, I can see exceptions. A Donald Trump type who is too thoughtless or stingy to care what their women want -- those kind of men are tacky in their own way. In another case, one of the comments to the article was from a gal who indicated that she takes good care of her fiancé and his income is totally disposable. He buys her an inexpensive ring without finding out what would really make her heart sing, and yet goes on to blow his paychecks on more toys. Under those circumstances, I can understand her disappointment. Sadly, the comments in return to her were rather rude and insensitive.

In the end, I think that the article is based on exaggeration. Women in the real world do not turn up their noses at $10,000 rings. Facebook isn't necessarily New York Times quality source material. Just the same, I will give due credit to the idea that the wedding industry, as a whole, is a racket.

 

[softly softly]

Date: 6/6/2008 6:42:17 PM
Author: rockzilla

Date: 6/5/2008 8:43:52 PM

Author: softly softly

Date: 6/5/2008 2:07:22 PM

Author: NewEnglandLady

Sorry about the threadjacking...I easily wonder off on a tangent. Rockzilla, you are right. They were in management consulting, he went to harvard bus. school and now she''s going as well and the cost of a 2 carat ring seemed like a drop in the bucket compared to their overall grad school debt. He did take out an extra school loan for the ring. The thing is that it works for them and they plan to upgrade after graduation. To each his own!

But isn''t this the sort of irresponsible borrowing that has contributed to the current crisis in debt management? I''m sorry, but I really struggle to understand the concept of spending money you assume you will be making in the future. And what good is earning a good wage if a large portion of it is eaten up in interest on loan repayments. My dad always tells me that it isn''t what you earn, but how much you save that counts and the older I get the more sense this makes. I''m all for enjoying the fruits of your labour, but shouldn''t the labour part come first???

It''s not any more irresponsible than taking out huge home equity loans for granite-countered kitchens and assuming that it will be paid for by the increase in you are expecting in the value of your home? Many people I know going to bschool with a guarenteed job offer coming out.


Its an example of the economic concept known as income smoothing. For example, people take out student loans with the expectation that their income will be greater after college, and thus they''ll be able to pay back the loans for both tuition and room and board. If you had to save up the entire cost of college and cost of living for 4 years before going, its unlikely you would ever go. On the other hand, you presumably are saving up throught your working years to pay for your retirement.


I''m going to play devil''s advocate here. Obviously its advantageous to keep spending to a minimum during the time you''re not working, but if you know (and a lot of people have offers after summer internships, etc) you''ll be getting, say, a $20k signing bonus upon school completion, why not get your fiance the ring they are dreaming about? Sure, there''s always going to be something more responsible to spend ir on or save it for, but you can apply that logic to anyone. I think the majority of people on this board could think of several more ''responsible'' things to do with the money they spend on their ring (whether it is saving for retirement, saving for a rainy day, giving to charity, etc.)

I agree that taking out huge home equity loans gambling on your home increasing in value is also risky, and is not necessarily a more responsible use of money. I''m not against spending on luxury items such as diamonds, I just don''t understand the concept of spending money before you have actually earned it. Sure it''s great to have a guaranteed job offer to back you up while studying, a signing bonus is even better, but what if the company goes under before you finish school? What if you bring all this debt with you that you are comfortable servicing while employed and you find yourself unable to work for some reason? I realise all borrowing, whatever it may be for is essentially spending money you don''t have, but unfortunately borrowing is often necessary to finance major purchases such as homes and cars, surely it is always better to limit debt to essential items? You are right, there will always be a more responsible use of money than jewellery, and I certainly don''t see it as a waste of money, it''s just that I personally would not be comfortable taking on debt to fund a diamond purchase, but that''s just me. I am also relatively cautious by nature and prefer to avoid debt where possible.

I guess I should also point out that I live in Australia and at the moment we have a higher education system that is largely funded by the government (I''m not sure how much longer that will last though), so the concept of student loans is relatively foreign here, although I take your point about needing to take on debt in order to fund an education that will enable you to maximise your earning potential.