Another School Shooting. This time in Santa Fe, Texas

[Arkteia]

Yesterday night, my kid was checking instagram and got a message from his school. There was a shooting threat and they advised kids to stay home for the next day. Today the school is open - the threat was not serious, they say. But it surely hit close to home.

School shootings are a complicated issue. The worst part? We shall never know much about the shooting unless someone wants to explore it. And even then, it will be in five years or so because of all the lawsuits that originate after each of the shootings. So we do not learn.

I do believe that there are at least four arms there, kids (mental issues), toxic atmosphere in schools (sometimes starting from the top), easy accessibility of the guns (but even if guns are banned, and I don't believe it will happen, we shall still have something happening - see "Toronto van attack"). Last but not least, the parents - who, surprisingly, are often good people (I read Sue Klebold's book and was shocked to find out that Dylan Klebold's parents were pacifists and anti-gun - but they missed their kid's depression and felt that they had no right to read his journal, which was so telling). But given the estimated rate of depression in teenagers (about one-third) and the fact that they do not confide in parents, we have one more, serious factor.

Our schools, like our police, protect their own and vehemently deny any bullying. But here is a story from the Columbine, just to illustrate how toxic the atmosphere can be. The biggest bully, R.S., was a wrestling champion transferred into the Columbine after an altercation with another kid. One day, he was standing next to the coach, and the coach lent him his megaphone. So the kid started commenting on everyone passing by. When one girl, a beauty (mind you, belonging to the popular group), appeared, he said, "here goes such-and-such., she has slept with such-and-such, and such-and-such, the whole football team". The coach allowed him to say it, and only afterward did he take away the megaphone.

As to the Columbine perpetrators, Harris and Klebold, once in the school cafeteria they were surrounded by a group of jocks, called "gay" and "faggots", and ketchup was squirted on them. They had to wear the clothes till the end of the schoolday. And neither told it to parents.

So since I read mentioning of the Texas shooter being bullied, especially since the coach was mentioned, I wonder what really set him off. We shall know the truth in five years. Until then - let us be very attentive if schoolkids we know complain of bullying.

 

[Indylady]

That is what I meant when I said responsibility should happen, the weapons should have been inaccessible especially if this kid had issues. The father should be held responsible as well.

This is a really interesting concept, Redwood. Are you suggesting that the parents can also be held criminally liable (and go to prison, etc.) for the crimes committed by their children using their guns? Our criminal justice system is not really set up for that to happen, but its a very interesting idea to have a gun owner be liable for crimes committed using that gun. Similar concepts do extend in a civil space--ie. in a general sense (there are exceptions) I would be held liable for purchases on my credit card or accidents involving my car.

 

[Arkteia]

This is a really interesting concept, Redwood. Are you suggesting that the parents can also be held criminally liable (and go to prison, etc.) for the crimes committed by their children using their guns? Our criminal justice system is not really set up for that to happen, but its a very interesting idea to have a gun owner be liable for crimes committed using that gun. Similar concepts do extend in a civil space--ie. in a general sense (there are exceptions) I would be held liable for purchases on my credit card or accidents involving my car.

As I know, Ray Fryberg, the father of Jaylen Fryberg (WA), was sentenced to 24 mo for lying on application forms. It was a loophole - the real reason was for leaving out the Beretta that his son used for killings.

http://www.newsweek.com/father-marysville-pilchuck-gunman-fryberg-sentenced-414060

 

[redwood66]

This is a really interesting concept, Redwood. Are you suggesting that the parents can also be held criminally liable (and go to prison, etc.) for the crimes committed by their children using their guns? Our criminal justice system is not really set up for that to happen, but its a very interesting idea to have a gun owner be liable for crimes committed using that gun. Similar concepts do extend in a civil space--ie. in a general sense (there are exceptions) I would be held liable for purchases on my credit card or accidents involving my car.

On vacation so just a quick check in. If the gun is used by a child in this kind of act due to negligence on part of the owner then yes. If the weapons are stolen by others or the child breaks into an otherwise properly stored safe then no. If an owner has done everthing possible to keep anyone from accessing their firearms then they should not be criminally responsible but if they are negligent then yes. Does that make sense? I think civil cases should be the same.

 

[perry]

Another tragedy; and I don't know all the answers.... I see multiple causes; and today's society and culture is much different than when I grew up. My background is that I was taught by my father how to use guns between ages 8 and 10 in the 60's; and encouraged to target shoot 22's as a healthy activity at the local shooting range.

By age 13 it was not uncommon for me to take a 22 riffle, ammo, targets and ride a bicycle through town with all of that headed to the shooting range (and back) - perhaps with friends with similar guns... and the local cops would just wave at us. Nobody was concerned.

None of us would ever think of shooting someone except in cases of extreme self defense. Us kids were all very responsible with guns.

By age 15 I had a 22 riffle in my bedroom closet with ammo, and had permission to take the handgun or shotgun to target practice as well (but limits on ammo use due to cost).

Of course, I started deer hunting with shotguns and other larger caliber rifles I think about age 14 or 15 (with adult supervision).

Both my Jr High and High School had school sponsored Gun and Hunter Safety Classes; and students brought in their own (or family) guns to school for those classes (properly cased and unloaded).

I won't say we did not have shooting events in my community and surrounding area. We did (Major memories of a family of 7 killed when I was in High School by a young man who had been a hired hand; but was fired as he was not a good worker; and my best friend committed suicide with his hunting riffle). But, they were much smaller events than today and more rare.

The issues I see today are:
- We have less effective methods with dealing with mental health issues.
- There is a general lack of requiring younger people (and adults) to be responsible for their own actions (and in teaching them to be).
- There is a numbness towards violence in general I think due to movies, TV, and video games (which in general appear to be more violent with more mass killings than in my youth).
- There is a much larger proliferation of large capacity magazines for certain kinds of guns (those kinds of guns and large magazines have always existed; but were fairly rare in my youth).

I was amazed to find out in the mid 1970's that Europe R and X rated movies based on violence (except for historical accurate war films and other documentaries - showing the realities and ugliness of battle was considered a good thing); which the USA R and X rated portions of anatomy, physical love, and any sex (which were G rated in Europe).

While the US has loosened up a lot on what an R and X rated film is to include modest anatomy, love, and sex; is there any wonder that people in the US view violence as more natural...

I'd love to be able to find a way to implement European Violence ratings on Movies, TV, video games, etc. I think it would start to make a difference within a decade - and clearly by 20 years.

I have put a lot of thought into possible gun control - and I think I have a realistic workable solution for our current common large capacity magazines (which I think is the only thing you might able to change). Why not regulate large capacity magazines just as other regulated firearms and devices that can produce large effects (Full Auto Machine Guns, silencers, etc).

For every magazine, clip, etc larger than 10 rounds you would have to pass medium level criminal and mental health background check, individually register, and store the magazine (or clip) in an appropriate safe when not being used. Registration fee could be tied to the size of the magazine, clip, etc. Say $200 per for up to 15 rounds, $300 for up to 20 rounds, $500 for up to 30 rounds, and $1000 for over 30 rounds. There would be a several hundred dollar application fee to cover the cost of processing the permit and running the background check.

So, for example if I were to own 4 handguns with 15 round magazines (not saying that is the number I own - just an example) I would either have to get rid of those large capacity magazines and use 10 round magazines, or pass a background check and pay $800 in registration fees; as well as perhaps have to buy better lock boxes than my current gun safes.

People would have several years to make the transition (3-5 years likely). My guess is that would eliminate 80% of the large capacity magazines, clips, etc. The other 20% would have much better storage controls.

Penalties for violation... confiscation of all firearms and fines. Lost or stolen large capacity magazines or clips would have to be promptly reported.

That would work; allows collectors and responsible people who have the $ to have those large magazines, clips, etc. (as they did exist in the 60's as well); and greatly minimize their use during a shooting event.

There is functionally no difference between many common type of Semi-automatic hunting riffles and military style semi-automatic riffles. The key difference is the size of the magazine or clip.

As far as the storage issue and liability on the parents. I agree with that concept. However, in several of the shootings that I am aware of (including 2 school shootings in Wisconsin); the teenager broke into a locked gun cabinet or had someone else open the gun safe under threat of severe violence (I believe it was Sandy Hook where the young man killed his mom to get to the guns). In cases like this where the guns were stored in proper locked storage... There is no criminal liability. I see the storage issue as having relatively low impact. Teenagers and young adults can figure out how to get the firearms...

I wish all well, and hope my thoughts are meaningful,

Perry

Edited to add: Be cautious of reading too much into the school shooting data. That is only part of the picture. I have vivid memories of being part of a gun control research and debate in Madison Wisconsin in the early 1980's. One of the surprising statistics was while Japan had a very low gun violence rate, they had a much higher overall violence rate than the USA due to knives - and more people died from knives on a per thousand basis in Japan than did people by guns in the USA.

Thus it's important to pay attention to the total violence level (by whatever device), than just focus on guns.

However, I will admit that the USA has a violence rate higher than many other nations (and lower than others); and I believe the USA has a violence problem that needs to be addressed.

Have a great day,

 

[chrono]

@perry
You’ve offered a unique solution which I’ve never considered. It keeps the amendment intact, yet limits the number of rounds, which is what kills so many so quickly.

 

[Arkteia]

Good morning, PSers. Shootings at Noblesville Middle schools in Indiana. They are live now. Is there going to be a day without shootings?

 

[Calliecake]

Just another day in America. The way our country clings to the 2nd amendment knowing full well our founding fathers never dreamed we would have weapons and magazines capable of killing many people in seconds is disgusting.

They need to conduct a study that states how these shootings impact the victims and their families for years to come.

It’s very hard to be proud to be an America these days.

 

[ksinger]

Hey! Wait! And here I didn't even get to note MY state's latest shooting in here before a new one got shoved to the top of the heap. Of bodies.

http://www.kktv.com/content/news/Ci...hooting-at-Oklahoma-restaurant-483693911.html

Today I'm feeling the ghost of what I felt the day after the Murrah Building was bombed. Both of these things, so shocking, so close. sad

 

[MonnieDBL]

My neck of the woods.(ETA: Noblesville,IN.) My cousin’s wife teaches 6th grade there. Fortunately they are on vacation in Florida right now. He just posted a photo of the UNARMED hero that tackled the shooter, Jason Seaman. Many thanks to him.

 

[AGBF]

I just came here to post about the same incident, Monnie. It reminds me of James Shaw and The Waffle House. Maybe we are creating a new breed of heroes with our mass shootings: men who run into the line of fire from madmen in middle schools and fast restaurants and disarm them Davy Crockett style with their bare hands...while being hurt or killed because of our gun policies.

"Newser) – A seventh-grade science teacher is credited with tackling a young gunman who opened fire in his classroom Friday morning, reports WTHR. Teacher Jason Seaman was shot three times in Noblesville West Middle School in Indiana, his brother tells the Indianapolis Star. An unidentified student also was shot, and a male student is in custody. Police say the young gunman asked to be excused from class, then returned with two handguns and opened fire, reports the AP. At that point, witnesses say Seaman, who played football at Southern Illinois University, tackled the shooter.

'It’s not surprising, to be honest,' brother Jeremy Seaman tells the Star. 'He’s not really ever been the person to run away. When the safety of the kids is at hand, it’s not surprising to me that he was going to do what he had to do.' Police have released few details about the shooting, including whether the gunman was targeting anyone deliberately. One student witness says the teacher 'immediately ran at him, swatted a gun out of his hand and tackled him to the ground,' adding that 'if it weren't for him, more of us would have been injured for sure.' Seaman's mother posted online that her son was 'out of surgery and is doing well.'"

 

[Gussie]

I had to duck out of this thread because TBH this was just too close. My stepsister 's daughters are in the same area as Santa Fe. They are friends with lots of kids there and the schools do things together. My stepmother told me that both girls wouldn't get out of the car to go to school the other day. My heart breaks for these kids. And in all honesty I am scared for my kids. I realize that it is still a rare event in the whole scheme of the world but it seems commonplace now. I talked to my son who starts high school next year and he said that he does think about it but prays it doesn't happen. It is not right that our kids have this to deal with.

Please note that I am venting. I can't read anymore about solutions. I guess I am the type to just duck my head in the sand. We are considering private school though. Smaller, and the staff know the kids better and are able to watch closer.

 

[Calliecake]

I’m so sorry @ceg .