Another Man in Need of Help

[DiamondDudley]

I need help.

" src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/20.gif" border=0>
I am married to a wonderful woman and certainly deserving of a nice ring.

" src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/12.gif" width=15 border=0> We have been married many years and still have great kids at home, so I have limited time to do a great deal of research, but I have been reading your forums and found them helpful in my search for a good quality diamond at a fair price to be put in an annaversary type ring for my wife. I think I would like the total ring budget to be near $30,000-$40,000, is this realistic for a platinum 2-4 ct ring?

" src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/20.gif" border=0>

I am looking for a Round 2 ct. at this time. I do think since she has a 1 ct. Solitare at this time she would very much like a larger diamond and of course sparkle is key.
We have looked at a very nice Round Vs1 or Vs2 2 Ct. H in Color, at a local retailer that is priced at $35,000. I must admit it is beutiful and no flaws are visible to the naked eye. It glows in the dark with fire. It has the pattended Millineum Cut which brings me to the first question?
Does this 88 to 89 facet add value or to the reason I should pay more for this stone? Have you heard of the J.C. Millenium cut by John Ceulemans Master Diamond Polisher of Antwerp, Belgium? or the 88 Facets by Stelman?
What about the 57 facets of Tiffany? Do the facets play a role in the price you should pay? I have not seen this anywhere but with the retailers marketing their wares.
Is there good value to be found in a diamond that is 1.9 cts vs 2.1?
The jeweler claims that I would be getting old pricing before the USD$ fell in value recently. How much do currency exchanges impact the price I should be williing to pay for the diamonds?
You have mentioned Good Old Gold several times in your threads, you all must like and trust them? How do they work as far as makeing a setting for you that I could surprise my bride with, or would it be necessary to go there for her to get what she wants?
I do want a great primary stone to surround with a stunning setting.

" src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif" width=15 border=0> Do you suggest any particular video galleries for us to look at for options to choose?
I just want to get a fair deal and not get taken by someone taking advantage of my ignorance and desire to please my super wife.

" src="http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/22.gif" width=15 border=0>
Do you have to pay sales taxes on Internet purchased diamonds if they do not have a domane in the state you reside?


I hope you can help me to do the best I can. I really like the idea of having a group of unbiased helper like yourselves.

DD

 

[gwendolyn]

Just to get this party started, have a look at this 2.32ct H VS2 H&A from GOG for $27,677.83: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3133/

Or, a 2.01ct H VS2 H&A from GOG for $23,979.50: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3488/

Or , there's this bigger one, although it's higher in colour and not an H&A (and lots more money!): 2.51ct G VS2 from GOG for $38,986.58: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/3712/



Any idea what setting you want to put it in?

 

[niceice]

Hi Diamond Dudley,

Okay, the post is a little hard to read because the forum script apparently didn''t convert the HTML into smilies, emphases, etc. but let''s see if I can get through it.

You''re looking for a nice 2 - 3 carat round brilliant. You''ve looked at a diamond which looks nice to you, it was H color, VS clarity. You''d like to know whether you can find any deals in the 1.90 - 2.10 carat weight category and whether there is a visible difference between round brilliant cut diamonds cut with (57) or (80) something facets...

As dealers, we''re prohibited from discussing price on the forum and/or from referring you to specific stones, so the best place to start is the diamond search engine incorporated on the main page of this web site. Enter the range of weight, color and clarity that appeal to you, click the button and a myriad of results will appear. I''m willing to venture that very few options will appear within the 1.90 - 1.99 carat weight range because of the price increase which occurs between the 1.99 - 2.00 carat weight marks. The fact of the matter is that a cutter is better off from a financial perspective to produce practically "anything" over the 2.00 mark as opposed to cutting something fabulous in the 1.90 - 1.99 range - but hey, it happens so search the range!

Okay, so you''ve clicked on the Search button and a whole bunch of stuff popped up (hopefully). Now what? Well it depends on the results, if you''re looking at what seems to be the same diamond listed by several different dealers, then you''re looking at a diamond which was picked up by the dealers off of the multiple listing services available to the trade (think MLS for the Real Estate trade). It doesn''t matter, click on the links until you find one that provides a copy of the lab report (or ask somebody to get a copy of the lab report for you) and punch the Total Depth, Table Diameter, Crown Angle and Pavilion Angle measurements into the Holloway Cut Adviser (available off of the drop down menu "Tools" above) to determine whether the diamond has potential. You''ll need to do this for any of the options which seem interesting to you...

Once you''ve narrowed down the field of possibilities, I suggest obtaining a full Sarin / OGI / Helum computerized proportions analysis to determine the consistency of the facet structure of the diamond. No need to explain this here, there are lots of tutorials and conversations to this regard to be found by searching the forum.

If all of this seems like a hassle, find a dealer who seems to gel with your personality / preferences and ask them to embark on a quest to help you find the diamond of your dreams... Sometimes that''s easier than trying to figure all of this out for yourself, but then again life is an adventure and diamonds can be a lot of fun! Many people who are regular contributors to the PS forum started out as people looking for a diamond and fell in love with the details along the way. One of our clients actually called me the other day to announce that he had just completed the Graduate Gemology program offered by the Gemological Institute of America and was now ready to shop for a diamond. Very cool

57 versus 80 something facets. Do I dare go down this road? We all know that I''m going to... Creak... Opening the door for the debate, looking around cautiously, running for it...

I have experience with what I''ll refer to as the modern round brilliant ideal cut diamond which has 57-58 facets depending on whether you count the culet (bottom point) of the diamond as a facet, and a modified version of a round which has 81 facets which is called an Eighternity diamond. There are several different variations of what I''ll call "extra faceted rounds", the names are different, the concept is the same, I''m going to talk about the one I''m familiar with and everybody else will chime in with their observances.

In my experience, the modern round brilliant ideal cut diamonds will exhibit broader flashes of brilliance and dispersion. The eighty something facet rounds will break up the light into smaller sparkles and more often than not will exhibit more white sparkle than colored sparkle. Recent discussions here on PS indicate that this phenomena might be explained by the presence of "virtual facets" which is a phenomena that involves the appearance of smaller facets within larger facets, in the form of surfaces or images, which occur due to reflection and refraction within a diamond. Putting this into real world perspective, as a diamond is worn and moves about, it is viewed at different angles and the presence and degree of virtual facets is believed to have a direct effect on what will be seen by the observer (that''s you).

If you''re thinking "say what?" you''re not alone... I was completely lost when I first heard this explanation, but John Pollard, who is a friend to many here on PS, took the time to explain it to me like this:

Here is a screen shot of a computer simulated diamond as created within DiamCalc (select Draft + Single Reflection). It is assumed that the diamond used in the example has perfect optical symmetry (cut precision) and no tilt.

virtualfacet-01.jpg shows the button to click on within DiamCalc (highlighted by a green arrow)

 

[niceice]

virtualfacet-02.jpg shows the appearance of virtual facets within the model. The light blue lines that are the primary framework of the model (green arrow points to example) represent the actual facets of the diamond and the bluish-green lines (red arrow points to example) represent the virtual facets created within the diamond (from this vantage point).

 

[niceice]

Looking at virtualfacet-03.jpg you can see that the frequency and size of the virtual facets shifts and changes as the diamond tilts. People who have a copy of the DiamCalc program can move the model 5 – 10 – 15 degrees South and East to see how the frequency of the virtual facets increases and their size decreases. It is easy to see how fast these virtual facets become tiny and reduce the possibility of seeing fire. Since the facet size of eighty something round brilliant cut diamonds are smaller than those found on a modern round brilliant cut diamond of the same carat weight, there will be smaller virtual facets and thus smaller pinpoints of light. Does this mean that one version of the round brilliant is better than another? Nope. It’s a matter of personal preference, some people prefer to a diamond which exhibits more of a balance of brilliance and dispersion and some people prefer diamonds with a lot of brilliance – but now you have an explanation of a concept that might help you distinguish the difference between the options which are available to you.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

In short, what Todd is explaining so eloquently:

More facets means that the average size of the sparkles coming out of the stone will decrease. Now, you would say, no problem, because there will likely be more sparkles.

Well, even if that last presumption is the case, the smaller the sparkle (defined by the virtual facet), the less likely that your eye is going to observe fire from that sparkle. Bottom-line: your are losing out.

Of course, this is a generalisation, and there are various exceptions. Say, for instance, a 10 Carat-stone. Because of the size of the stone, it can handle more facets.
Live long,

 

[strmrdr]

leaving the science out for a bit I have seen some 2.5-3ct extra facet rounds(88 and129) and I liked them a lot.
I don''t like them in a 1ct but in 2ct and above they can be breath taking.
That said I preferred the 2ct well cut RB I compared them too.
In larger sizes there is nothing wrong with the better extra facet rounds its a different look some people love!

 

[niceice]

Date: 2/21/2008 4:59:23 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

More facets means that the average size of the sparkles coming out of the stone will decrease. Now, you would say, no problem, because there will likely be more sparkles.

Well, even if that last presumption is the case, the smaller the sparkle (defined by the virtual facet), the less likely that your eye is going to observe fire from that sparkle. Bottom-line: your are losing out.

And of course, the amount and type of light return that is seen within a diamond by an observer, is also dictated by the type of lighting and environment that the diamond is being observed from. For instance, when viewing a diamond outside in direct sunlight, your pupil will contract which results in less light being let in... Thus the diamond may appear to be more brilliant. But inside, in dimmer lighting conditions, your pupil will open up to let in more light and the "same" diamond suddenly seems to exhibit more fire! The AGS Laboratory calls this concept "Fire Mapping" and it is something that we''ll be hearing more about soon... I can''t wait! Geek. Geek. I''m a Geek

Where''s Adamas? He can explain this so much better than I can... Marty Haske (Adamas) is a leading specialist in diamond optics and has done a lot of research which indicates that tighter cut precision results in purer spectral hues during scintillation (sparkle created when you or the diamond is moving). This is because the virtual facets in precisely cut stones are more orderly so the fresnels don''t mix.

 

[WinkHPD]

I am beginning to see the wisdom of waiting for Todd to speak before I speak. He speaks in GREAT DETAIL and with much clarity.

If you have followed Todd so far, you either have been much illuminated ( a little brilliance pun there) or you have a headache, much like both he and I had when we first started trying to digest this information.

Long story short.

If you have a really big rock, the smaller virtual facets might still show fire and look incredible for both white and colored light. If you have a smaller gem, you will see more white sparkle, and not much colored sparkle, the smaller the gem the less you will see color. Thus a big gem with 88 facets will likely look much better than a smaller gem with the same 88 facets.

This picture will help to explain why.

This is a picture of the disperion metric that AGS is currently working on. In the picture of the Tolkowsky cut gem you can see that there is MUCH more yellow and orange showing than in the less well cut diamond. The important part of this metric is the lminimum and maximum spread of the dispersion when seen at the normal viewing distance, I believe that was 28 centimeters, but I could be wrong.

When the length of the ray of dispersion is narrower than the pupil of the eye, you will only see white light. When it is longer, you will see the spectral colors. On a bright day you will thus see way more dispersion than you will on a cloudy day or in a dimly lit room as your pupils will get much larger and thus more and more of the dispersion will be detected only as white light.

Also, the further away from the diamond you are, the more dispersion you will see, so if you have a smaller diamond with a bazillion virtual facets that are all white light to you who are wearing the diamond, it may in fact be a fireball of flashing colors to some one ten feet away.

Don''t know if this helps or confuses you, but it is part of the picture that you are asking for help on.

 

[tickintime]

Dear lord in holy heck!!

This is a thread in rocky talk about finding this man a present for his ever deserving wife! Not a thread on the optics of a diamond...

Summary, storm loves higher facets in 2+ct diamonds. The rest of the world thinks (based on science

) that they belong in much higher ct'ed diamonds.

Now 2-3ct RB? Did I see clarity and color requirements?

ETA: AHH there we are VS and H color! Was this what you were looking at in store because they showed it to you? or is this actually what you are looking to buy? B&M would show me a ruby if I was looking for a emerald and this is why I ask.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/21/2008 5:25:34 PM
Author: niceice

Date: 2/21/2008 4:59:23 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

More facets means that the average size of the sparkles coming out of the stone will decrease. Now, you would say, no problem, because there will likely be more sparkles.

Well, even if that last presumption is the case, the smaller the sparkle (defined by the virtual facet), the less likely that your eye is going to observe fire from that sparkle. Bottom-line: your are losing out.

And of course, the amount and type of light return that is seen within a diamond by an observer, is also dictated by the type of lighting and environment that the diamond is being observed from. For instance, when viewing a diamond outside in direct sunlight, your pupil will contract which results in less light being let in... Thus the diamond may appear to be more brilliant. But inside, in dimmer lighting conditions, your pupil will open up to let in more light and the ''same'' diamond suddenly seems to exhibit more fire! The AGS Laboratory calls this concept ''Fire Mapping'' and it is something that we''ll be hearing more about soon... I can''t wait! Geek. Geek. I''m a Geek

Where''s Adamas? He can explain this so much better than I can... Marty Haske (Adamas) is a leading specialist in diamond optics and has done a lot of research which indicates that tighter cut precision results in purer spectral hues during scintillation (sparkle created when you or the diamond is moving). This is because the virtual facets in precisely cut stones are more orderly so the fresnels don''t mix.

I believe you are correct about this.

I believe you are stating this backwards. As I understand it, when the pupil opens up, it accepts more light, but the wider apperature of the eye is now seeing more of the smaller dispersion events as white light, since the length of the ray when it reaches the eye is now less than the width of the pupil. If you are defining fire as the colored light or dispersion, then I would argue that you have stated it backwards. You will actually perceive more dispersion in the out of doors environment on a bright day when your pupil is small, and less indoors when your pupil is large.

Of course by now this has probably been answered as I have had clients in between when I started to reply to your original post and again now after my first reply. I love being busy!

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/21/2008 6:17:05 PM
Author: tickintime
Dear lord in holy heck!!

This is a thread in rocky talk about finding this man a present for his ever deserving wife! Not a thread on the optics of a diamond...

Summary, storm loves higher facets in 2+ct diamonds. The rest of the world thinks (based on science

) that they belong in much higher ct''ed diamonds.

Now 2-3ct RB? Did I see clarity and color requirements?

ETA: AHH there we are VS and H color! Was this what you were looking at in store because they showed it to you? or is this actually what you are looking to buy? B&M would show me a ruby if I was looking for a emerald and this is why I ask.

LOL! But he did ask, "Does this 88 to 89 facet add value or to the reason I should pay more for this stone?" to which we took off.

He also asked if he had to pay sales tax if the vendor he chooses does not have a presence in his state. The correct answer is not to the vendor, but he is required by law to turn himself in at the alter of taxation and pay the tax on his personal income tax statement.

Wink

 

[mrssalvo]

Hi diamondDudley,

umm, i'm just an average consumer and all the tech stuff being discussed above is waaaaaaay over my head. I just wanted to say you have an amazing budget and i'm sure whatever you get will knock her socks off. stick around on the forum and you'll see who the popular vendors are here and why. i would also suggest checking out Pearlmans website for a huge selection of settings...

 

[tickintime]

Wink if I could come through your monitor!!

I think stock in Advil would be a good thing to buy. This thread is just one big technical headache!

To the OP (DiamondDudley thats YOU!) I would recommend starting another thread in RockyTalk asking for some help finding first the stone. List your ideal color (H I gather), clarity (VS), and size goal (2-3ct?), and price point for the stone and setting (separately preferred). DO NOT ask questions as you did in here. As you can see this thread is a train wreck of knowledge. Consider this thread your headache (ahem answer to the 80+ vs 57 facet question).

Also, stick to the basics. Apparently the smile icons aren''t too happy with you, leave them out. It makes it nearly impossible to read.

Good Luck. Stick around, you will find that special something!

BTW When do you need this by?

 

[DiamondDudley]

Thank you all for your help? I do think I got an anwers to some of my questions and perhaps a bit more information that I may have needed in some areas. But, the idea of more facets in a cut may determine the value if a buyer is willing to pay for what may be an optical enhancement by making the stone appear a bit larger and perhaps to flash more often.

It is also helpful to understand that several dealers may be representing the same diamond.

Thanks for the tax advice as well, as I was not clear on that law.

I did not get much advice on the budget question or web sites to go to in order to see settings.

I did get the Certificate n of the stone in question. It is 2.17 CT - H in color - SI1 in color and it lights up the room in all forms of light. From shadow under the counter to the outside lighting it is stunning in apparance. Should I post the certificate number to have you all give me an opinion of the stone?

So sorry about the messyness of the first submittal.

DD

 

[strmrdr]

To answer another part of your question..
videos:
http://goodoldgold.com/video/

Watch:
A very interesting comparison of a 3ct GIA Ex with 40.8 pav/35.0 crown alongside a 2.68ct GIA Ex w/40.8 pavilion/34.5 and a 3ct Eighternity. The two 57 facet rounds differ most in their lower girdle facet length. One at 75% and the other at 82.6%. The difference in appearance is notable

An awesome 3ct Eighternity alongside a 2.51ct AGS Ideal and a 2.36ct Hearts & Arrows Ideal.

Then go down too:
Product Comparisons
And watch:
The Eighternity Diamond
The Solasfera Diamond
The Star129 Diamond

 

[strmrdr]

For settings pearlmans has one of the broadest selections available anywhere.
Look over his site for ideas:
http://www.pearlmansjewelers.com/

 

[niceice]

Date: 2/21/2008 6:17:05 PM
Author: tickintime
Dear lord in holy heck!!

This is a thread in rocky talk about finding this man a present for his ever deserving wife! Not a thread on the optics of a diamond...

Yes, but Diamond Dudley posed the question about 57 or 88 facets and I wanted to answer it and provide some background for the explanation. I probably should have been less technical. Let''s try this... Think of the keypad on a standard telephone, the keys are what most of us would consider to be average, think of this as the facet size of a standard 57 facet round brilliant cut diamond. There are other telephones that people carry around which are much smaller than what most people would consider to be "standard" and they have tiny keypads on them, this is similar to the facet structure on an eighty something facet diamond. And then there are the telephones made for people like my grandmother, which have great big keys so that they can see them. There really isn''t a right or wrong as to which phone you decide to use, they all work, it''s a matter of personal preference. But which telephone you pick will be based on your specific needs and preferences. The same holds true with what diamond to pick, if Diamond Dudley likes a diamond with larger flashes of brilliance and dispersion, then he will likely pick a modern round brilliant with 57 facets. And if Dudley prefers smaller flashes of sparkle and more brilliance than dispersion, he will probably pick one of the hybrids - but at least now he has the information (and the headache) to know why one version looks different and performs visually different than the other. That''s really all I was trying to achieve.

 

[strmrdr]

hmmmm I think its time for a round table discussion on virtual facets thread.
No time right now too start one.

I will say that 88 or even 129 facets in 2.5-3ct they are not too small for it too look fiery and blingy.
A crushed ice 1 ct radiant has much smaller virtual facets than even the 1ct 88 cuts as would a 2.5ct too 3ct size for size and I don''t see anyone calling them dead looking.
Busy yes, dead no.

 

[niceice]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:03:13 PM
Author: strmrdr
hmmmm I think its time for a round table discussion on virtual facets thread.

I will say that 88 or even 129 facets in 2.5-3ct they are not too small for it too look fiery and blingy.

I think that a round table thread is in order, perhaps we can get a little advance notice set-up between the interested parties so that everybody knows that it is occurring and where. The larger the stone, the larger the facets and thus the larger the virtual facets will be - no argument there, but there will be a different pattern of light and different visual performance between standard round brilliant cuts and those with more facets - and it''s up to each person buying a diamond to "look at BOTH" types of cut and determine what is their preference - that''s really all I''m saying along with the why. Each shape has advantages and disadvantages, again it is merely a matter of personal preference

 

[DiamondDudley]

Thank you all for you insight on the number of facets in a cut. It has been helpful.

Now could you help me with the next question in regard to budget and specifically the diamond I now have on hold with a big deposit?

I did get the Certificate n of the stone in question. It is 2.17 CT - H in color - SI1 in color and it lights up the room in all forms of light. From shadow under the counter to the outside lighting it is stunning in apparance. Should I post the certificate number to have you all give me an opinion of the stone?

Then it seem for my potential budget I can get a much better stone and setting than what I may have semi-committed to at this time? Can I get my wife a wonder 2+ CT diamond and complimentary platinum setting for $25,000 or will it be more?

Thank you all for your help but I dont think I need anything more on the facet question, I hope I didnt cause any trouble.

DD

 

[sparxs111]

Just thought I''d add in that if you want to check out the difference between the classic 57 facet RB and special modified RB''s then check out googoldgold.com and look at the viseo section. They compare star 129, eighternities and solasferas with H and A RBs. I have to say the comparisons are STUNNING! Makes me want to buy a modified, but what can you do!!! It all comes down to personal preference.

 

[DiamondDudley]

Wow the videos were very helpful. I guess my wife and I both like the extra facet dispersed light diamonds better. So will an 88 facet or more specifically the Star 129 shown in the video cost more that a exactly comparable size, color, and clarity diamond?

DD

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:03:13 PM
Author: strmrdr
hmmmm I think its time for a round table discussion on virtual facets thread.
No time right now too start one.

I will say that 88 or even 129 facets in 2.5-3ct they are not too small for it too look fiery and blingy.
A crushed ice 1 ct radiant has much smaller virtual facets than even the 1ct 88 cuts as would a 2.5ct too 3ct size for size and I don''t see anyone calling them dead looking.
Busy yes, dead no.

I don''t think any one is saying that they will be dead looking, just with more white light than colored light. If you are like me and LOVE that colored light, then you would want either a really big stone with the extra facets, or a "regular" cut, but when I say regular I am meaning AGS 0 and 1 type cutting because I am a cut afficianado and want only the best cutting. To paraphrase a nice song from my childhood, "gimme that old tyme dispersion, it''s good enough for me..."

Wink