Another first-time buyer thread!

[brimley]

Hi everyone,

First-time buyer here and I'm attempting to purchase an engagement ring over the internet. I am trying to go for the value of an SL1 diamond, but am unsure of how to interpret GIA reference diagrams to predict eye clean appearance. I have a specific diamond picked out for which the price is right, but I am unsure if it will be relatively eye clean or not. I suppose the primary concern would be the crystal inclusion in the center. See below for the GIA grading report and subsequently a zoomed-in image of the reference diagram.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[Gypsy]

Here's a little information to get you started though:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is. And you need a reliable lab report which means GIA or AGS only.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And with MODERN ROUND BRILLIANTS GIA Ex is not enough.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut (for round brilliants)
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor and the tool itself is here: https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone. For round brilliants that's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. James Allen, BGD, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool' for round brilliants. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA round brilliant you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 modern round brilliant stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

I hope you enjoy your time here on Pricescope. We love newbies and helping them learn. So if you ever need something explained to you... just let us know and we'll be happy to help!

 

[brimley]

Anyone have any suggestions that pertain to the actual question I asked? Thanks again in advance.

Gypsy - what you posted is excellent information and I had already seen it before, as it seems that you copy and paste that onto most new peoples' questions. When you quickly blanket post this text into threads, it lessens the likelihood that others will respond to the actual question. While I appreciate having the information you posted, you did not address my question. To be honest with you, I ruled out the diamond in my initial post based on your posting of this information in someone else's thread (HCA 2.9) before you even posted it in my thread. However, my question stands.

 

[artdecolover71]

I believe the only way to know if its eye clean with that clarity is to see photos, in my non-professional opinion.

 

[WinkHPD]

Anyone have any <Snip> question I asked? Thanks again in advance.

<SNIP (both snips to remove rude comments to a valued poster here)>

This diamond could easily be eye clean. It could also easily be not eye clean. That will depend partially on your eyes and how well you see close up. At normal viewing distance this diamond will almost certainly be eye clean from the top. Oh, that is how we grade them in the trade. Many here like to view them from all angles and declare them not worthy if inclusions can be seen from any angle including the bottom and side, which is greatly aided by the physics of light and how the diamonds are cut to return light to the eye of the viewer FROM THE TOP and to allow a much more clear view of the diamond from the side, which makes many inclusions visible when viewing through the side or bottom of the diamond.

As they are the consumers declaring what works for them, I strongly support their right to do so. Since you are a new poster, I do not know which group you are in so I give you both answers.

Artdecolover, the poster below your post suggests a photo. I must respectfully disagree and tell you that most photos will be magnified to at least ten powers and most much more than that, so photos of diamonds will easily show inclusions that may or may not actually be eye visible. Plus no photo can emulate YOUR vision. to answer your question properly, you must see the diamond, or at least talk with someone who has the diamond and get the answer for HIS/Her eyes to have at least some idea what it may be for YOUR eyes.

The biggest plus for looking at this diamond with YOUR eyes is that you will then be able to determine if you care or not about how poorly it is cut. In spite of being rated Excellent by GIA it is a dog. The pavilion angle at 41.2 coupled with a 33 crown angle is simply unacceptable which is why the price is so "right". However, I like many here, am interested in maximum sparkle and maximum beauty. The cutting of this diamond far outweighs the potential of whether or not there are any eye visible inclusions in this diamond.

Wink

 

[heididdl]

For example I just picked up my GIA certified H Slightly included diamond two days ago here is what the map shows. When I tell you you have to strain under 10x to see the inclusions I am not joking. You would never ever think this stone was a sI1

 

[heididdl]

Anyone have any suggestions that pertain to the actual question I asked? Thanks again in advance.

Gypsy - what you posted is excellent information and I had already seen it before, as it seems that you copy and paste that onto most new peoples' questions. When you quickly blanket post this text into threads, it lessens the likelihood that others will respond to the actual question. While I appreciate having the information you posted, you did not address my question. To be honest with you, I ruled out the diamond in my initial post based on your posting of this information in someone else's thread (HCA 2.9) before you even posted it in my thread. However, my question stands.

specifically to answer your questions you have to see and view the stone in person that's it. I gave you above my GIA report and will definetly say t hat I cannot see my inclusions either face up or on the side only when looking really closely under 10x loupe. Your stone is probably eye clean from the top as Wink said but unless you see it yourself you have to go with the vendors opinion. get the stone make sure there is a return policy and view it yourself hope this helps.

 

[TC1987]

Anyone have any suggestions that pertain to the actual question I asked? Thanks again in advance.

Ask the vendor to examine it and tell you what it looks like. Either that or you inspect it in person. Someone has to look at it. I'm of the opinion that there has been a good bit of "grade creep" in the form of leniency from even GIA and AGS, if you look at a 10-year history. Plus, there is global competition from China and other countries buying diamonds, when 10 years ago they weren't major players. What's my point? It's getting much tougher to find eyeclean SI1 and SI2 stones, especially in the larger sizes. I suspect many of those stones never even make it to the USA market. And the ones that do, are going to get immediately snatched up by vendors and will be sold as in-house diamonds, not virtual list diamonds. Just my $.02, because I am always looking at SI1, SI2, and even I1 listings for deals. I don't care if I see a discrete and small speck some or all of the time. Sometimes that makes a diamond literally about half the price it would be if it were a VS2 or VS1. I pick cut / color / size over clarity.

Inclusions outside of the table range are far more easily camouflaged. But I have seen SI1 stones up to the 1.25ct size or so, that have a rather large clear (colorless) crystal right there in the table area, and it's very difficult to see it without a loupe. Dark inclusions are (imo, much) more likely to be seen by someone who has good near vision, because at times the faceting reflects white light back at the viewer, and a dark colored crystal stands out against a white background.

Some people look for diamonds that have twinning wisps, because they can be harder to spot that crystal inclusions.

As the diamond size increases, so does the size of inclusions that's allowed to be called SI or VS.

Another issue is that individual graders can disagree on a grade. One might call it SI1, and somebody else says SI2.

 

[TC1987]

Another thing to remember about hearts & arrows diamonds is that the arrows are not black, unless they are reflecting something dark. In real life, they are changeable. Dark, bright white, flashes of fire. A dark crystal lying over an arrow shaft or point will be seen under some conditions. Will it bother you / her? You decide.

Also, when people say "Oh, it's a prongable inclusion," always go one step farther and look at how the arrows will be oriented after you turn the diamond to put the inclusion under a prong. Having a "prongable inclusion" might mean that you have to choose your setting carefully to rotate the diamond to hide the inclusion plus get the arrows pointing where you want them to point. Most people want at arrow pointing up at 12:00 (consider diamond as a clock face), or they want a black space at 12:00 and an arrow point at 11:30 and another at 12:30.

 

[brimley]

Thank you artdecolover, Wink, heididdl, and TC1987 for weighing in / filling me in on this. It is clear to me now that the reference diagrams cannot be used as an eye cleanliness rejection tool unless the inclusion is egregious, in which case the grading would probably be lower anyway.

Wink - as you stated, I do see now by way of the HCA calculator that the diamond in the original post is unacceptable. I replaced it with the following stone, which comes in at 1.3 using the tool:

https://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?pagename=GST%2FDispatcher&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=2166724623

However, it is from blue nile, and as Gypsy stated above, there is a limited amount of information available prior to purchasing. They have a 30 day return policy, although I would be far more comfortable with a 60 or 90 day return policy. However, 30 day may be industry standard - I'll need to compare policies among various retailers.

TC1987 - interesting trend information. If I purchase this diamond from blue nile (or any vendor), I will of course inspect it personally, but will immediately have it looked at by someone else.