An enigma wrapped in a riddle...

[Gypsy]

blah, blah, blah...

So I need some advice from ya'all.

Current job is like working on the stage of The Office. And not surprisingly, it's not as funny when it is happening to you.

I've got a solid resume pedigree. All the things folks look for... good education, sucessive jobs with increasing responsibilites at good companies.

And I don't have kids. And I'm female.

And while I like much of the job responsibilites of the positions I am looking at I've learned to translate recriter lingo and have figured out that what I don't want is a "dynamic" (chaotic), "challenging" (thrown in the deep end the day you get there), "not 8-5" (Work/Life what???) job that is on the 'fast track to more exciting opportunities down the road' (less work/life, more chaos, more sink or swim).

I want a job with regular hours, that allows me to do what I do for my company, and then go home. Despite the fact that we don't have kids I'm not looking to be the next CEO/General Counsel/up and coming star of any company.

Call it lack of ambition, call it a desire to have a life outside of work.. whatever.

But here's what keeps happening to me. I apply for one job, get a call from a recruiter who, having spoken to me for 20 minutes thinks I'd be perfect for this other 'dynamic, challenging, not 8-5 position that would put me on the fast track for ... blah, blah, blah."

How do I tell these people that while my credentials and the impression I make at interviews would qualify me for these positions, I'd really rather be considered for less ambitious, more mundane jobs without sounding like a slacker.

Ideas appreciated. I know... I'm whining about being offered what on paper looks like a 'great opportunity'... but my definition of a great opportunity is one that lets me enjoy my life outside of work and pays the bills.

 

[mary poppins]

I wish I had some suggestions for you, Gypsy, but I'm in a similar position and have an interview with a recruiter tomorrow afternoon. I hope you get some good responses to your question soon.

 

[lyra]

I really appreciate your perpective Gypsy, I felt/feel the same way. I am no longer working of course, but I always felt life was more about the living than the slaving over a career. Everyone is different. I wish I had some advice for you. I just wanted to say you're not a slacker! There's nothing wrong with wanting more out of life, since you've only got the one shot at it. I doubt you'd look back on your life and say, gee, I wish I would have spent more of my time *working* than enjoying life. Good luck. I hope someone wiser than me will give you better advice.

 

[Liane]

That's a toughie.

If you're not super desperate to get the new job, I'd just tell them bluntly, "no, that sounds great and all, but I really value stability and serenity and I am just not interested in that much stress." There's a chance that the recruiter will be all when you do that and the offer will evaporate, so I wouldn't recommend it if you need a new position right now, but if you're confident in your qualifications and not about to die of starvation, bluntness coupled with certainty has always worked well for me.

 

[Gypsy]

Sometimes validation and knowing that you aren't alone are rewarding. This is one of those times. Thank you Mary, lyra, and Laine. After I read your posts I went and wrote an email turning down the opportunity of a job that was all the things I didn't want. And I was able to do it (fairly) gracefully, just knowing that I had "backup".

Mary, good luck honey. Let me know how it goes.

lyria, I think that saying that you appreciate a work life balance and making a joke about "you've never heard of anyone reflecting back on thier lifes saying: I wish I'd spent more time in my cubicle." is one way to get the message across (along with things like "I am a strong advocate for my company" and other things that let them know that you are a hard worker) might be one tact to take.

Laine, I basically said what you recommended in my recent email but also tied it to specific job responsibilites that I don't have any experience with. Here's what I said:

It was a pleasure speaking to you as well! I've read through the new job description and here are my honest thoughts.

X, y and z are activies I support and believe in for any company. But I have never performed these tasks myself. That's not to say the interest isn't there, but it would require a much steeper learning curve than I expected when we spoke.

I would love to do a, b and c but I also don't want to get into a situation where in my first 3 months at a new job I am drinking from a fire hose and hoping to keep myself from drowning. It's a delicate balance between being ambitious and being realistic. And from the job description, this position would be overreaching for me when it comes to certain tasks but perfect for me in others.

As a result, I don't think I am the right person for the position. This is a bit of a bitter pill, as I know I could do half of the job exceptionally well. But I also know that I wouldn't be happy in a job where I was only doing half of it well while stuggling on the rest. I really would like to be happy in any new position I take.

If there are any other oppportunities that present themselves which are a good fit for my qualifications and interests, whether here in the Bay Area or elsewhere (Continential US), I hope you will keep me in mind.

 

[Octavia]

Gypsy, I know that exact feeling. I, too, have no real desire to take over the world...I just want a nice, stable life and a job I enjoy that pays decently and lets me be who I want to be in and (especially) out of the office. The job I have now pretty much fits that description, but it's not permanent, so I will be searching soon enough. Unfortunately, as you know, I'm just starting out in this crazy business so even though I worked for a few years before, it doesn't really "count" as experience. So at least you're way ahead on that!

I think your email was good -- honest, but not slackerish. Hopefully the recruiter will see it in the best possible light, after all, they are on the line if they produce candidates who aren't right for the job, too. It's too bad that this wasn't the right opportunity for you, I know how much you'd like to move on...crossing my fingers for you that something perfect comes up soon!

 

[Gypsy]

Hi Octavia, you said it much more concisely than I could. And I hope you find it in a permanent position hon. It's just a tough market right now and most employers don't care what you want, because they don't have to. Trying to find a place that does and is honest with you, so that you can evaluate them as they are evaluating you is difficult.

I've found that recruiters are a mixed blessing. There is definitely a lot of industry speak which is misleading. When I say I want something challenging I've discovered that the description is very different from what a recruiter means when they say something is challenging. So I ask them to define terms for me. It's a lawyer-y thing to do, "so when you say that this position is x do you mean.... A or B or something else." But I think it is absolutely necessary as recruiters get paid to sell you a bill of goods and sell the company a bill of goods. And salesmen are great at marketting, not so great at just telling it like it is.

" I, too, have no real desire to take over the world...I just want a nice, stable life and a job I enjoy that pays decently and lets me be who I want to be in and (especially) out of the office."

I think I am going to use the above in my job interview tomorrow. I love sincerity and accuracy of it.

 

[sphenequeen]

Hi Gypsy,

I don't think you sound unmotivated at all, in fact I think you sound motivated to move in a different direction. What I would do if I were in your position is write down what it is you are most looking for in your next line of work. For example, if it is important that you have an 8-5 schedule, write that down. Perhaps you want to work in a place that is more "group oriented" rather than placing the responsibility of the workload solely on you. How about your work environment? You also mentioned your desire for a stable life - how do you think you will best achieve this? If you put the pieces of your future career puzzle on paper, perhaps something will begin to take shape instead of casting a line out into a vast ocean and hoping that something takes a bite.

I wish you the best of luck!

 

[VRBeauty]

I'd ditto sphenequeen - write down what you want, how you define each of those things, what the limits are and what exceptions you'd be willing to up with, what concessions or accommodations you'd be willing to make. Keep writing - the right words and phrases will come to you. By thinking about how often or under what circumstances you'd be willing to veer from the ideal, you'll be ready to answer those kinds of questions as they come up.

Now for the psycho-babble... as you write your list of what you do want, it might help you to mentally fill in turn that "negative space" - the time and energy you don't want to sacrifice to your job - into a positive picture of the life you do want. I mention that because of your "I don't have kids" line. I think parents might have an easier time establishing work-related boundaries because they can establish more concrete "must have" lists - "I must be able to volunteer in the classroom once a month - to have dinner as a family most nights - I must be able to help with the kids' athletics on most weekends,we must be able to schedule vacations during the summer and for the holidays." What do you want for Layla and John that the career-climbing jobs won't allow you to have or do?

You won't come across as a slacker in the interview unless you make it a focus of the interview and find a way to interject you limits into every response. Answer each question on its own terms, and wait until for the appropriate question to bring up or discuss this aspect of what you want. If there doesn't seem to be an appropriate question, ask about these aspects of the job at the end of the interview.

Good luck. What you're looking for is not unreasonable, although it probably does buck most peoples' expectations of lawyers . The right job for you is out there somewhere!

 

[zoebartlett]

Gypsy, what about saying something like, "I value a healthy work/life balance?" You may need to go into more specific detail, and that's when you could say something along the lines of what Octavia suggested (or use her exact words). You could mention that you always put in 100% at your job, and you also have realized over time the importance of maintaining a healthy work/life balance.

Just a thought! Good luck today!

 

[zipzapgirl]

I think the key words are "Work/Life Balance" as others have said.

I think it is fair to say to recruiters and in interviews that you have already worked crazy hours and are very interested in moving into a role that does not have those requirements. If you feel they aren't getting the point, I think it's fair to expound with examples, like, "I'm ok if I need to work until 7pm the first week of the month, but I wouldn't be ok if it turned into 7pm or later every night."

Also, I think you need to be brutally honest with recruiters because they do tend to push hard. With potential employers I'd be a little more coy.

 

[geckodani]

" I, too, have no real desire to take over the world...I just want a nice, stable life and a job I enjoy that pays decently and lets me be who I want to be in and (especially) out of the office."

Octavia - that's beautifully put. And I totally agree with that sentiment.

Gypsy, you're not alone, and I respect you for sticking to what you know is right from you. I'm the same way. I have an incredibly mundane job that drives me a bit batty, but you know what - it pays the bills, the hours are great and I have Holidays off. *shrug* I have no greater goals. Perhaps that's good, perhaps that's bad, but in the end it's what I want.

I think that the email you sent was well thought out, and I hope you find something that makes you happy!

 

[movie zombie]

i look at recruiters as i do real estate agents: some listen to you and will only show you places that meet your criteria....others will try and cram you into anything in order to make a sale.

be straight with recruiters: yes, i'm ambitious and when push comes to shove i will do what is necessary to get a job done. however, i'm looking for a job that respects that i have a family life. when you find such a position, let me know.

i'd be forthright and honest to the point of giving examples of what i hear when certain buzz words are used and examples of past jobs that were advertised as one thing and were actually another.

many recruiters will not find you easy and pliable, the prefered and easily placed. however, a good recruiter will "hear" you and won't waste your time.

good luck!

MoZo

ps is this an AU recruiter?

 

[zoebartlett]

Gypsy, you've most likely already had your interview today, but here are a few more of my thoughts.

Yes, be frank with recruiters. I know a few recruiters that my husband worked with didn't get where he was coming from at first, and they kept referring him to jobs that weren't at all what he wanted or was remotely interested in. He (finally) had to have a frank conversation and after that, future meetings went well.

When talking to recruiters, don't be afraid to say what you want and don't want in a future position.

I wouldn't go into an interview (with an employer) with negative statements: "I don't want..." or "I'm not willing to..." you know, those types of comments. Not that I think you would, but it's best to keep things worded positively.

 

[Gypsy]

Argh, ate my post.

Highlights... great advice on here. I've started a list prioritizing what I want. I feel like Goldilocks, but then I remind myself of Ms.Salvo's sig. line and remind myself that it is OKAY to be be a little picky.

Today's interview was another miss due to recruiter over selling. I was way overqualified and it was obvious immediately when the hiring manager started delving into my past experience. I could have done the hiring manager's job and he knew it and pretty much told me so. So... mismatch. Unfortunately the rest of the 'stuff' was a good fit. So I've asked them to keep me in mind if they have a role at the right skill level for me. I was their 'top' candidate referred by the recruiter so I could tell the hiring manager was sad too, as they need the help but he knew I'd be bored silly and so did I.

MZ, John's mom's health isn't great so he's asked we stay state-side for the time being. But we are looking to move out of the Bay Area into someplace with a more manageable cost of living if possible. I want to have the flexibility to take a pay cut if I have to, and out here it's just not possible. I'm at my floor right now because I took a 15% pay cut to accept this job-- so I need to lower that floor somehow by cutting cost of living.

Alternately or in conjunction, I'd love to sell my car and just be a one car family if possible with John and I commuting together or using public transit-- I know a couple of people that have done this and it just sounds like Nirvana. So I am looking in SF itself because of Bart. Unfortunately most of the jobs for me are in the south bay or peninsula. High housing, high gas, no real public transit.

We'll see how things progress. I do feel more in control and wiser thanks to all the wisdom you all have imparted. So hopefully that will produce some positive results. ((HUGS)) and much thanks.

 

[movie zombie]

Gypsy, it was a good contact for a networking opportunity if nothing else. it sounds like you connected and i'm betting they really will keep you in mind.

its ok to be more than a little picky: being specific is being honest and its being assertive. no one else knows what you want unless you tell them....perhaps repeatedly. forgive but i'm not recalling what you do for a living...i do think i knew at one time....sigh.

MoZo

 

[Gypsy]

I used to say I'm a Contracts Manager. But I've since learned to be VERY specific about what I do, as Contracts Manager is a pretty large umbrella.

What I used to do (and want to do again) is pre-award (before signature) commercial (not government) contract negotiation (so reviewing, redlining, revising, drafting and negotiating). I need a role that fits my experience with negotiating and drafting contracts, influencing (or formulating and drafting) contract department "best practices" policies, training and mentoring others both in a contracts team and in the business groups that I support about contract negotiation and drafting.

I have a JD (which is something that both helps and hinders me in my search). My experience is all with technology (hardware and software and now IT consulting) companies, but the business groups I've supported have run the gamut of Facilities, HR, IT, Sales, Marketing, Legal, and Finance (and I'm in the wacky world of IT Consulting Healthcare right now). So I'm a jack of all trades and can pretty much manage any type of commercial contract, although I have not yet done any Alliance contracts or M&A contracts.

I'm happy to relocate to anywhere short of Alaska, Arkansas, North Dakota and... well, states that are right around those. I have the best chance of finding a job in NJ/NY, CA, DC metro (although most Contracts Negotiators out in that area are Government Contracts Negotiators and it is a completely different world), Oregon, and TX. And I'm fine with that, although I have preferences (obviously).

That's the nutshell of what I am looking for.

 

[movie zombie]

ok, that helps clarify....i thought you had the JD and i thought it was something re contracts but the specifics helps. should help a recruiter also!

are you with law firm currently? if not, what type of company: someone that subcontracts with companies to provide these services?

in the "old" days i could think of a dozen places that would snap you up in silicon valley. things have changed dramatically with so much outsourcing.

MoZo

 

[Gypsy]

Hi MZ I'm with an IT Consulting company. Similar to Deloitte, but not Deloitte. I'm in their contracts management department supporting an major healthcare account/contract. I'm not doing pre-award work, but rather post-award contract management-- which is contract compliance and due diligence (babysitting with a hge nanny cam watching me). I thought it would be an interesting switch to see how the other half works (post versus pre award) but it is just NOT for me.

I found two more jobs to apply to last night. One is with a large company and the job could be located in three different states (TX, NJ, VA) so I sent that off. And another is in the heart of SF, and might just be a good fit pending more information. I sent that off too. Crossing fingers.

Thank you A) for the encouragement and B) letting me know it is okay to be picky. I have this feeling in my gut that makes me think I think I should just be grateful companies are interested and so I just go forward without considering things I should. I've got to stop that and have some confidence and try to understand (I get it in my head, but not my gut) that this is a long term commitment and that I deserve to find the right fit.

It's weird, but I think that's been half the battle. Meh, psycho-babble over.

 

[movie zombie]

glady to have been of help, Gypsy!

will keep my ears open........

MoZo