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Americans Cannot Tell Truth From Lies

AGBF

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Below is an excerpt from a "The New York Times" (February 4, 2017) column by Charles J Sykes, who once hosted a conservative talk radio show. The problem he points out is that many Americans have come to be unable to tell fact from fiction and no longer have the drive to do so. If you click on the link to the article, you will see that he exhorts the media to make this right. I am unsure whether the media can do this alone or whether we, the people, have to do it. Isn't this something we have to do for ourselves?

Deb/AGBF

"MILWAUKEE — If President Trump’s first tumultuous weeks have done nothing else, at least they have again made us a nation of readers.

As Americans grapple with the unreality of the new administration, George Orwell’s '1984' has enjoyed a resurgence of interest, becoming a surprise best seller and an invaluable guide to our post-factual world.

On his first full day in office Mr. Trump insisted that his inaugural crowd was the largest ever, a baseless boast that will likely set a pattern for his relationship both to the media and to the truth.

At an event marking Black History Month last week, the president took a detour from a discussion of Frederick Douglass — he described the abolitionist as 'an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more' — to talk about the press. 'A lot of the media is actually the opposition party — they’re so biased,' he said. 'So much of the media is the opposition party and knowingly saying incorrect things.'

Mr. Trump understands that attacking the media is the reddest of meat for his base, which has been conditioned to reject reporting from news sites outside of the conservative media ecosystem.

For years, as a conservative radio talk show host, I played a role in that conditioning by hammering the mainstream media for its bias and double standards. But the price turned out to be far higher than I imagined. The cumulative effect of the attacks was to delegitimize those outlets and essentially destroy much of the right’s immunity to false information. We thought we were creating a savvier, more skeptical audience. Instead, we opened the door for President Trump, who found an audience that could be easily misled.

The news media’s spectacular failure to get the election right has made it only easier for many conservatives to ignore anything that happens outside the right’s bubble and for the Trump White House to fabricate facts with little fear of alienating its base.

Unfortunately, that also means that the more the fact-based media tries to debunk the president’s falsehoods, the further it will entrench the battle lines.

During his first week in office, Mr. Trump reiterated the unfounded charge that millions of people had voted illegally. When challenged on the evident falsehood, Sean Spicer, the White House press secretary, seemed to argue that Mr. Trump’s belief that something was true qualified as evidence. The press secretary also declined to answer a straightforward question about the unemployment rate, suggesting that the number will henceforth be whatever the Trump administration wants it to be.

He can do this because members of the Trump administration feel confident that the alternative-reality media will provide air cover, even if they are caught fabricating facts or twisting words (like claiming that the 'ban' on Muslim immigrants wasn’t really a 'ban'). Indeed, they believe they have shifted the paradigm of media coverage, replacing the traditional media with their own.

In a stunning demonstration of the power and resiliency of our new post-factual political culture, Mr. Trump and his allies in the right media have already turned the term 'fake news' against its critics, essentially draining it of any meaning. During the campaign, actual 'fake news' — deliberate hoaxes — polluted political discourse and clogged social media timelines.

Some outlets opened the door, by helping spread conspiracy theories and indulging the paranoia of the fever swamps. For years, the widely read Drudge Report has linked to the bizarre conspiracy theorist Alex Jones, who believes that both the attacks of Sept. 11 and the Sandy Hook shootings were government-inspired 'false flag' operations.

For conservatives, this should have made it clear that something was badly amiss in their media ecosystem. But now any news deemed to be biased, annoying or negative can be labeled 'fake news.' Erroneous reports that the bust of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. had been removed from the Oval Office or misleading reports that sanctions against Russia had been lifted will be seized on by Mr. Trump’s White House to reinforce his indictment.

Even as he continues to attack the “dishonest media,” Mr. Trump and his allies are empowering this alt-reality media, providing White House access to Breitbart and other post-factual outlets that are already morphing into fierce defenders of the administration.

The relationship appears to be symbiotic, as Mr. Trump often seems to pick up on talking points from Fox News and has tweeted out links from websites notorious for their casual relationship to the truth, including sites like Gateway Pundit, a hoax-peddling site that announced, shortly after the inauguration, that it would have a White House correspondent.

By now, it ought to be evident that enemies are important to this administration, whether they are foreigners, refugees, international bankers or the press.

But discrediting independent sources of information also has two major advantages for Mr. Trump: It helps insulate him from criticism and it allows him to create his own narratives, metrics and 'alternative facts.'

All administrations lie, but what we are seeing here is an attack on credibility itself.

The Russian dissident and chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov drew upon long familiarity with that process when he tweeted: 'The point of modern propaganda isn’t only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.'

Mr. Kasparov grasps that the real threat is not merely that a large number of Americans have become accustomed to rejecting factual information, or even that they have become habituated to believing hoaxes. The real danger is that, inundated with 'alternative facts,' many voters will simply shrug, asking, 'What is truth?' — and not wait for an answer.

In that world, the leader becomes the only reliable source of truth; a familiar phenomenon in an authoritarian state, but a radical departure from the norms of a democratic society. The battle over truth is now central to our politics.

This may explain one of the more revealing moments from after the election, when one of Mr. Trump’s campaign surrogates, Scottie Nell Hughes, was asked to defend the clearly false statement by Mr. Trump that millions of votes had been cast illegally. She answered by explaining that everybody now had their own way of interpreting whether a fact was true or not.

'There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts,' she declared. Among 'a large part of the population' what Mr. Trump said was the truth.

'When he says that millions of people illegally voted,' she said, his supporters believe him — and 'people believe they have facts to back that up.'"

Why Nobody Cares The President Is Lying... https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/04/opinion/sunday/why-nobody-cares-the-president-is-lying.html?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article
 

ksinger

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AGBF

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ksinger|1486390341|4124802 said:

That was wonderful, Karen. I saw you discussing Forsetti's blog with some other members in another thread and had no idea what it was like. Now I do. I already know three people to whom I want to forward this link: two very intelligent conservatives and one scientist with a more Libertarian political point of view. (In other words, my husband and two of my first cousins.) I think that although the conservatives in question may not "untangle major strands of their webs" due to reading this, that they will be drawn to the intellectual content of the blog. The scientist is always ready to change his beliefs. ;))

Deb :wavey:
 

ksinger

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AGBF|1486395814|4124837 said:
ksinger|1486390341|4124802 said:

That was wonderful, Karen. I saw you discussing Forsetti's blog with some other members in another thread and had no idea what it was like. Now I do. I already know three people to whom I want to forward this link: two very intelligent conservatives and one scientist with a more Libertarian political point of view. (In other words, my husband and two of my first cousins.) I think that although the conservatives in question may not "untangle major strands of their webs" due to reading this, that they will be drawn to the intellectual content of the blog. The scientist is always ready to change his beliefs. ;))

Deb :wavey:

Glad you liked it. I was pretty sure you would. ;))

It's sad to me that I simply lack the energy, focus, and will anymore, to pen my own thoughts on these matters, and am therefore left to linking other people's takes on things. I at least try to find the ones I resonate most closely with, to post. And ones that are decent reads.

Oh, about Americans and their relationship to truth and expertise, my book shelf has "The Age of American Unreason", "Denialism", and "Dark Ages America", none of which are all that new. The decline of Americans' ability, and also the decline of the willingness to do the work, to ferret out truth no matter how uncomfortable, has long been noted.
 

monarch64

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I saw this yesterday and saved it. Seems appropriate for this thread. (Sorry for its tiny font size; I'm not sure how to enlarge it without it becoming blurry.)

conned.jpg
 

the_mother_thing

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monarch64|1486397993|4124855 said:
I saw this yesterday and saved it. Seems appropriate for this thread. (Sorry for its tiny font size; I'm not sure how to enlarge it without it becoming blurry.)

I found & posted the FB post below to help with readability.

You voted for Trump because Clinton was going to be in Wall Street's pocket. Trump wants to repeal Dodd-Frank and eliminate the Fiduciary Rule, letting Wall Street return to its pre-2008 ways.

You voted for Trump because of Clinton's emails. The Trump administration is running its own private email server.

You voted for Trump because you thought the Clinton Foundation was "pay for play." Trump has refused to wall off his businesses from his administration, and personally profits from payments from foreign governments.

You voted for Trump because of Clinton's role in Benghazi. Trump ordered the Yemen raid without adequate intel, and tweeted about "FAKE NEWS" while Americans died as a result of his carelessness.

You voted for Trump because Clinton didn't care about "the little guy." Trump's cabinet is full of billionaires, and he took away your health insurance so he could give them a multi-million-dollar tax break.

You voted for Trump because he was going to build a wall and Mexico was going to pay for it. American consumers will pay for the wall via import tariffs.

You voted for Trump because Clinton was going to get us into a war. Trump has provoked our enemies, alienated our allies, and given ISIS a decade's worth of recruiting material.

You voted for Trump because Clinton didn't have the stamina to do the job. Trump hung up on the Australian Prime Minister during a 5pm phone call because "it was at the end of a long day and he was tired and fatigue was setting in."

You voted for Trump because foreign leaders wouldn't "respect" Clinton. Foreign leaders, both friendly and hostile, are openly mocking Trump.

You voted for Trump because Clinton lies and "he tells it like it is." Trump and his administration lie with a regularity and brazenness that can only be described as shocking.

Let's be honest about what really happened.

The reality is that you voted for Trump because you got conned. Trump is a grifter and the American people were the mark. Now that you know the score, quit insisting the con-man is on your side.

Mr. Mallicote's assertions are his opinions and he is casting some very broad & incorrect assumptions/judgments on voters; they certainly aren't representative of how/why I voted. :nono: :hand:
 

OreoRosies86

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Good post Monnie, but you know what they say about deaf ears.
 

monarch64

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Elliot86|1486399986|4124867 said:
Good post Monnie, but you know what they say about deaf ears.

What?

:lol:
 

telephone89

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monarch64|1486397993|4124855 said:
I saw this yesterday and saved it. Seems appropriate for this thread. (Sorry for its tiny font size; I'm not sure how to enlarge it without it becoming blurry.)
This is so true. And yet they just keep the blinders on with their hands covering their ears yelling lalalalalalalala.
 

ksinger

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arkieb1|1486423188|4125074 said:
ksinger|1486390341|4124802 said:

Thank you, that's one of the best explanations on why conservatives here and in general feel so "attacked" therefore there very way of life and how they view the world is under threat, that I've read in a while!!!!

Yeah, he's good. I always known that the reactions I was seeing had to do with (always unarticulated) core beliefs (how can one not?) but haven't the vocabulary for describing how that works, that he does. The web analogy is great.
 

ruby59

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I can just say that as an older woman used to 3 channels on TV and no Internet, yes I believed everything I heard and read.

I never knew fake news even existed.

But I have learned from you girls that you cannot take everything at face value today and have to do a little vetting yourself to separate the lies and half-truths from the actual truth.
 

redwood66

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arkieb1|1486423188|4125074 said:
ksinger|1486390341|4124802 said:

Thank you, that's one of the best explanations on why conservatives here and in general feel so "attacked" therefore there very way of life and how they view the world is under threat, that I've read in a while!!!!

No I do not agree with this POV of the conservatives here on PS.

Forsetti's articles are verbose condescension.
 

arkieb1

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redwood66|1486426611|4125112 said:
arkieb1|1486423188|4125074 said:
ksinger|1486390341|4124802 said:

Thank you, that's one of the best explanations on why conservatives here and in general feel so "attacked" therefore there very way of life and how they view the world is under threat, that I've read in a while!!!!

No I do not agree with this POV of the conservatives here on PS.

Forsetti's articles are verbose condescension.

You are one of the people that I'd argue in some things (not in all of them) are unable to shift your way of thinking to accept actual real statistical evidence or facts, so of course it comes across as condescension to you. I started another thread a few days ago asking for everyones point of view because this was exactly it, I also suspect that the reactions from conservatives here come from a set of some core beliefs (and no Red I am not saying you all have exactly the same set of beliefs), but I couldn't articulate why when presented with evidence that Trump and his team are basically introducing severe and some cases anti-constitutional legislation why some (again not all) of you defend either these actions or defend the Republican party at all costs.

I'll give you an example from my other post a more middle of the line conservative who I both like and respect was arguing that you need people like Trump because he is going reform banking and basically that his protectionist stance is needed economically because otherwise you can't compete because you don't subsidise your industries by large amounts like other countries do. This sounded incorrect to me, I already had a set of opinions on these things, but I checked with people I know, I read things to confirm that you have a high level of protectionism in agriculture and in various other industries, and that some of the reforms Trump is going to lift or change are to do with financial advisors (which I think is a bad idea my reasons are given in the other post) and she was stating he might lift the Dodd-Frank Act and other red tape for banks and lending institutions which she thought was good and bad, but mostly good because of the cost of monitoring these institutions and she thought it would mean small businesses would benefit from this.

Now again my argument went along the lines that generally protectionism for most industries (not all, but most) doesn't work and in the long term it will harm you economy and create the same set of conditions that led to the GFC. I also used examples I know of why lifting bank and financial monitoring could be bad and why using evidence when Trump himself owes these banks hundreds of billions of dollars he would be an impartial person to decide which regulations to lift.

The simple fact is that some (not all, but I'd say a lot) of conservatives have points of view or a set of beliefs, some of them that I have read on here to name are few are, protectionism is good for your country, there were too many people misusing welfare under Obama, or that you should deny all Muslims entry into the US because they are all terrorist threats, or you should never impose better gun control laws because they won't work or they might mean you will lose some of your guns when none of these things are indeed statistically true, none of these things are actually correct yet some of you believe them to be so and are even when provided with evidence are unwilling to shift to a new paradigm.

When liberal or left posters here post something Trump has said or done you yourself post a whole heap of so called "evidence" that disagrees with them and backs up your own point of view. Sometimes you might get it correct, buy frequently your sources, only present a fixed, one sided point of view, and you no doubt would argue that we do the same. If it's patronising to hear or read this, I can see why, no one likes to be told they are wrong, especially when their core set of beliefs or their own life experiences tell them they are right. I guess you see most liberals as being wrong and their data as being wrong no matter what.

I'd like to hope that statistically, when we are wrong, more liberal thinkers read everything, look at as much data from both sides or as much unbiased evidence as possible and either admit they are wrong and or change/adapt their paradigms more easily than some (not all but many) conservatives do.
 

redwood66

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You did not attempt to parse any of Forsetti's article in how it applies to conservative posters here. Therefore by your post, which I quoted, indicates his entire article applies. Which it does not. That is my opinion.

If I post something wrong I admit it. I don't agree with everything Trump does but meanwhile the left is trying to find, in the right, every psychological defect under the sun to justify why Hillary lost. Any self examination is absent. That is very convenient and not worth the thousands of words the very few conservatives here on PS have used to try to explain it to you. If it makes you feel better to posit that because I don't change my views to yours I must be a defective voter then posit away. Nothing I say will change your mind either.

:wavey:

Here is a bit from Dave Rubin formerly on Young Turks. This is my opinion also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiVQ8vrGA_8&t=7s


ETA - Actually this need to understand why a conservative here on PS could vote for Trump by some left leaners, for me, is baffling. I would never think to interrogate and bemoan another's choice in our most personal of civic duties.
 

the_mother_thing

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...Whatever the reason(s) people are often unwilling to change beliefs, especially those located near the center of their web. This is why it is important to put solid, evidence-backed beliefs at the center to reduce the chances something will contradict them. Flimsy beliefs are more likely to be called into question by evidence and not able to support other beliefs. This is the main problem with conservative belief systems-they have placed, allowed, weak and unsupportable beliefs at the center of their web and are unwilling, unable to make changes to it.

Who knew our constitution, bill of rights & the founding principles of this country (my 'web center') were such 'unsupportable, flimsy beliefs'. :eh:


My 'religion' is my own; but those things above belong to us ALL, and we should never give them up. :nono:


If Forsetti (or anyone else) wants to believe they are 'weak & unsupportable' and 'need changing', I suggest they take a one-way walk ... across the ocean ... in either direction. :wavey:
 

redwood66

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JoCoJenn|1486438789|4125205 said:
...Whatever the reason(s) people are often unwilling to change beliefs, especially those located near the center of their web. This is why it is important to put solid, evidence-backed beliefs at the center to reduce the chances something will contradict them. Flimsy beliefs are more likely to be called into question by evidence and not able to support other beliefs. This is the main problem with conservative belief systems-they have placed, allowed, weak and unsupportable beliefs at the center of their web and are unwilling, unable to make changes to it.

Who knew our constitution, bill of rights & the founding principles of this country (my 'web center') were such 'unsupportable, flimsy beliefs'. :eh:


My 'religion' is my own; but those things above belong to us ALL, and we should never give them up. :nono:


If Forsetti (or anyone else) wants to believe they are 'weak & unsupportable' and 'need changing', I suggest they take a one-way walk ... across the ocean ... in either direction. :wavey:

+1 million.
 

arkieb1

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redwood66|1486437838|4125196 said:
You did not attempt to parse any of Forsetti's article in how it applies to conservative posters here. Therefore by your post, which I quoted, indicates his entire article applies. Which it does not. That is my opinion.

If I post something wrong I admit it. I don't agree with everything Trump does but meanwhile the left is trying to find, in the right, every psychological defect under the sun to justify why Hillary lost.

Hillary was the wrong candidate, she spoke down to people, people didn't trust her because Trumps team spent millions of money convincing every person that believed his campaign she was even more immoral, untruthful and evil and he was, and my personal favourite she must be untrustworthy or less of a person because she stayed with Bill... and those emails well we are all going to ignore Trump is essentially now doing the same thing. Me personally I don't care jack if the Dem's candidate was a monkey, they would still probably do a better job than Trump. So you see I'm over the fact she lost, and as I keep saying and the point you seem to be missing is that if you had a decent conservative currently in power with moderate or rational views I wouldn't even waste my time posting on here about it.

Trump should never have been your president period. And no we are not "going to get over it" because he is a corrupt immoral extremist.


Any self examination is absent. That is very convenient and not worth the thousands of words the very few conservatives here on PS have used to try to explain it to you. If it makes you feel better to posit that because I don't change my views to yours I must be a defective voter then posit away. Nothing I say will change your mind either.

:wavey:

Here is a bit from Dave Rubin formerly on Young Turks. This is my opinion also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiVQ8vrGA_8&t=7s


ETA - Actually this need to understand why a conservative here on PS could vote for Trump by some left leaners, for me, is baffling. I would never think to interrogate and bemoan another's choice in our most personal of civic duties.

Dave Rubin puts all progressives in the same basket, correct me but isn't that doing exactly the same thing? O.K I'll stop trying to understand why someone who is Jewish votes for a team that is essentially anti-Jewish, in the case of DF I'll stop attempting to analyse why someone who is Chinese has a wife who supported Trumps team who are again essentially anti-Asian.... I'll just go with the theory it's because you think he's better than Hillary and even though I accept she was a s@&* choice you were incapable of seeing Trump was an even worse one until he does something that effects you and yours personally.
 

redwood66

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arkieb1|1486441328|4125218 said:
redwood66|1486437838|4125196 said:
You did not attempt to parse any of Forsetti's article in how it applies to conservative posters here. Therefore by your post, which I quoted, indicates his entire article applies. Which it does not. That is my opinion.

If I post something wrong I admit it. I don't agree with everything Trump does but meanwhile the left is trying to find, in the right, every psychological defect under the sun to justify why Hillary lost.

Hillary was the wrong candidate, she spoke down to people, people didn't trust her because Trumps team spent millions of money convincing every person that believed his campaign she was even more immoral, untruthful and evil and he was, and my personal favourite she must be untrustworthy or less of a person because she stayed with Bill... and those emails well we are all going to ignore Trump is essentially now doing the same thing. Me personally I don't care jack if the Dem's candidate was a monkey, they would still probably do a better job than Trump. So you see I'm over the fact she lost, and as I keep saying and the point you seem to be missing is that if you had a decent conservative currently in power with moderate or rational views I wouldn't even waste my time posting on here about it.

Trump should never have been your president period. And no we are not "going to get over it" because he is a corrupt immoral extremist.


Any self examination is absent. That is very convenient and not worth the thousands of words the very few conservatives here on PS have used to try to explain it to you. If it makes you feel better to posit that because I don't change my views to yours I must be a defective voter then posit away. Nothing I say will change your mind either.

:wavey:

Here is a bit from Dave Rubin formerly on Young Turks. This is my opinion also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiVQ8vrGA_8&t=7s


ETA - Actually this need to understand why a conservative here on PS could vote for Trump by some left leaners, for me, is baffling. I would never think to interrogate and bemoan another's choice in our most personal of civic duties.

Dave Rubin puts all progressives in the same basket, correct me but isn't that doing exactly the same thing? O.K I'll stop trying to understand why someone who is Jewish votes for a team that is essentially anti-Jewish, in the case of DF I'll stop attempting to analyse why someone who is Chinese has a wife who supported Trumps team who are again essentially anti-Asian.... I'll just go with the theory it's because you think he's better than Hillary and even though I accept she was a s@&* choice you were incapable of seeing Trump was an even worse one until he does something that effects you and yours personally.

Thank you for confirming my suspicion your thread where you feign true interest in another viewpoint was just a ruse.
 

ruby59

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arkieb1|1486441328|4125218 said:
redwood66|1486437838|4125196 said:
You did not attempt to parse any of Forsetti's article in how it applies to conservative posters here. Therefore by your post, which I quoted, indicates his entire article applies. Which it does not. That is my opinion.

If I post something wrong I admit it. I don't agree with everything Trump does but meanwhile the left is trying to find, in the right, every psychological defect under the sun to justify why Hillary lost.

Hillary was the wrong candidate, she spoke down to people, people didn't trust her because Trumps team spent millions of money convincing every person that believed his campaign she was even more immoral, untruthful and evil and he was, and my personal favourite she must be untrustworthy or less of a person because she stayed with Bill... and those emails well we are all going to ignore Trump is essentially now doing the same thing. Me personally I don't care jack if the Dem's candidate was a monkey, they would still probably do a better job than Trump. So you see I'm over the fact she lost, and as I keep saying and the point you seem to be missing is that if you had a decent conservative currently in power with moderate or rational views I wouldn't even waste my time posting on here about it.

Trump should never have been your president period. And no we are not "going to get over it" because he is a corrupt immoral extremist.


Any self examination is absent. That is very convenient and not worth the thousands of words the very few conservatives here on PS have used to try to explain it to you. If it makes you feel better to posit that because I don't change my views to yours I must be a defective voter then posit away. Nothing I say will change your mind either.

:wavey:

Here is a bit from Dave Rubin formerly on Young Turks. This is my opinion also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiVQ8vrGA_8&t=7s


ETA - Actually this need to understand why a conservative here on PS could vote for Trump by some left leaners, for me, is baffling. I would never think to interrogate and bemoan another's choice in our most personal of civic duties.

Dave Rubin puts all progressives in the same basket, correct me but isn't that doing exactly the same thing? O.K I'll stop trying to understand why someone who is Jewish votes for a team that is essentially anti-Jewish, in the case of DF I'll stop attempting to analyse why someone who is Chinese has a wife who supported Trumps team who are again essentially anti-Asian.... I'll just go with the theory it's because you think he's better than Hillary and even though I accept she was a s@&* choice you were incapable of seeing Trump was an even worse one until he does something that effects you and yours personally.


Assuming facts here that Trump is an anti semite.

But I am seeing references to Hillary Clinton that "referred to Jews as 'stupid k***s'"

I am also finding other derogatory remarks she used to describe Jews and African Americans,
 

arkieb1

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redwood66|1486441990|4125222 said:
arkieb1|1486441328|4125218 said:
redwood66|1486437838|4125196 said:
You did not attempt to parse any of Forsetti's article in how it applies to conservative posters here. Therefore by your post, which I quoted, indicates his entire article applies. Which it does not. That is my opinion.

If I post something wrong I admit it. I don't agree with everything Trump does but meanwhile the left is trying to find, in the right, every psychological defect under the sun to justify why Hillary lost.

Hillary was the wrong candidate, she spoke down to people, people didn't trust her because Trumps team spent millions of money convincing every person that believed his campaign she was even more immoral, untruthful and evil and he was, and my personal favourite she must be untrustworthy or less of a person because she stayed with Bill... and those emails well we are all going to ignore Trump is essentially now doing the same thing. Me personally I don't care jack if the Dem's candidate was a monkey, they would still probably do a better job than Trump. So you see I'm over the fact she lost, and as I keep saying and the point you seem to be missing is that if you had a decent conservative currently in power with moderate or rational views I wouldn't even waste my time posting on here about it.

Trump should never have been your president period. And no we are not "going to get over it" because he is a corrupt immoral extremist.


Any self examination is absent. That is very convenient and not worth the thousands of words the very few conservatives here on PS have used to try to explain it to you. If it makes you feel better to posit that because I don't change my views to yours I must be a defective voter then posit away. Nothing I say will change your mind either.

:wavey:

Here is a bit from Dave Rubin formerly on Young Turks. This is my opinion also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiVQ8vrGA_8&t=7s


ETA - Actually this need to understand why a conservative here on PS could vote for Trump by some left leaners, for me, is baffling. I would never think to interrogate and bemoan another's choice in our most personal of civic duties.

Dave Rubin puts all progressives in the same basket, correct me but isn't that doing exactly the same thing? O.K I'll stop trying to understand why someone who is Jewish votes for a team that is essentially anti-Jewish, in the case of DF I'll stop attempting to analyse why someone who is Chinese has a wife who supported Trumps team who are again essentially anti-Asian.... I'll just go with the theory it's because you think he's better than Hillary and even though I accept she was a s@&* choice you were incapable of seeing Trump was an even worse one until he does something that effects you and yours personally.

Thank you for proving that your thread where you feign true interest in another viewpoint was just a ruse.

No it wasn't a ruse. I'm sorry you think so. But, I'm also going to say what many of us are thinking here, your passive aggressive way of baiting people on here and then crying foul when they lose their sh@* and attack you personally has been really interesting to watch.

I also personally love people like Dave Rubin and Trump himself who say political correctness has gone too far, maybe it has and maybe it hasn't, in some areas sure it has, but obviously if you can have a person like Trump now as your president clearly in some areas it hasn't gone far enough.
 

the_mother_thing

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Also from the Forsetti article:
White supremacists have a central belief that minorities, especially blacks, are inferior.

"Oh! What a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

Admittedly the 'white republican' numbers are just slightly higher across the board, but they are HARDLY significantly different/worse than 'white democrats' according to a 538 article/survey (not that either is 'acceptable' :hand: ). And overall racial perspectives do show a downward trend.

What I draw from this (at a glance) is: 1) there is a negligible difference between dem & repub whites who view blacks with a level of 'inferiority'; and, 2) lefties subscribing to this Forsetti article better move your 'kettle-butts' to a cooler burner, lest you scorch your own behinds while calling out the 'pots' (conservatives) as 'racist'. :whistle:

white_vote_for_black_president.png

negative_racial_attitudes.png
 

arkieb1

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ruby59|1486442001|4125223 said:
Assuming facts here that Trump is an anti semite.

But I am seeing references to Hillary Clinton that "referred to Jews as 'stupid k***s'"

I am also finding other derogatory remarks she used to describe Jews and African Americans,

Here we go again, it doesn't matter what we say or what evidence we provide I get it, to you, Hillary was worse. It doesn't matter how many examples I, or anyone else provide to suggest Trump was x or y you are going to come up with an argument to disprove it. Tell me honestly, what does he need to do and this is for both yourself and for Red before you can actually see he and Bannon should be impeached or removed. Where does he cross the line where it's unacceptable to you? Forget Hillary I already have we're talking about Trump here, when is he going to cross "your line" of what is unacceptable?
 

redwood66

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My baiting? That's rich. You can't just agree to disagree without telling someone how stupid they are because they don't agree with you. Do you read your own posts through an objective lens?
 

arkieb1

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redwood66|1486442821|4125227 said:
My baiting? That's rich. You can't just agree to disagree without telling someone how stupid they are because they don't agree with you. Do you read your own posts through an objective lens?

Honey I only give as good as I get. So you do, answer my question above, where's your line when Trump does something that even you don't, won't or can't accept.
 

redwood66

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arkieb1|1486442974|4125228 said:
redwood66|1486442821|4125227 said:
My baiting? That's rich. You can't just agree to disagree without telling someone how stupid they are because they don't agree with you. Do you read your own posts through an objective lens?

Honey I only give as good as I get. So you do, answer my question above, where's your line when Trump does something that even you don't, won't or can't accept.

There are things he does that I do not agree with. I don't know where you got the idea that I am a Trump sychophant. I just don't post every thought in my head here on PS. Thanks for toning down the nasty btw. I am a nice person but no one likes condescension.

:wavey:

I am not sure what you mean by draw the line. I can't personally do anything about anything he does.
 

arkieb1

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redwood66|1486443423|4125231 said:
arkieb1|1486442974|4125228 said:
redwood66|1486442821|4125227 said:
My baiting? That's rich. You can't just agree to disagree without telling someone how stupid they are because they don't agree with you. Do you read your own posts through an objective lens?

Honey I only give as good as I get. So you do, answer my question above, where's your line when Trump does something that even you don't, won't or can't accept.

There are things he does that I do not agree with. I don't know where you got the idea that I am a Trump sychophant. I just don't post every thought in my head here on PS. Thanks for toning down the nasty btw. I am a nice person but no one likes condescension.

:wavey:

I have no empirical or statistical evidence to back that up, and YES that was my sense of humour not condescension.

:wavey: :lol:

What does he have to do so that you personally say yes, O.K it's time to remove him. That is what I am asking. If he does x or y then yes he as crossed of the line of being an acceptable and non acceptable leader...
 

ruby59

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I'll stop trying to understand why someone who is Jewish votes for a team that is essentially anti-Jewish,


Arkie, this is the question you asked and I responded to.

You wanted to know why Jews would vote for Trump. And I would assume, as opposed to Hillary Clinton.

So I gave you my response from a Jewish standpoint that I heard mentioned many times from other Jews.
 

OreoRosies86

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arkieb1|1486442815|4125226 said:
ruby59|1486442001|4125223 said:
Assuming facts here that Trump is an anti semite.

But I am seeing references to Hillary Clinton that "referred to Jews as 'stupid k***s'"

I am also finding other derogatory remarks she used to describe Jews and African Americans,

Here we go again, it doesn't matter what we say or what evidence we provide I get it, to you, Hillary was worse. It doesn't matter how many examples I, or anyone else provide to suggest Trump was x or y you are going to come up with an argument to disprove it. Tell me honestly, what does he need to do and this is for both yourself and for Red before you can actually see he and Bannon should be impeached or removed. Where does he cross the line where it's unacceptable to you? Forget Hillary I already have we're talking about Trump here, when is he going to cross "your line" of what is unacceptable?

Arkie, you are one of the most intelligent posters here. You know the focus is always going to be on Obama (no longer president) or Hillary (who did not win). The defenders simply don't matter anymore. The breaking point has come for most people I know in real life. Even my ultra conservative family members who were vocal Trump supporters have expressed major concerns. They feel duped which is frustrating to watch because we all knew it would happen. They thought he was this irreverent tough talker who was going to take down the Wall Street gangs and build some dumb wall. Now we have him appointing billionaires and pulling his financial team from Goldman Sachs.

Everyone is getting up in arms about beer commercials and being called racist while he pisses away what's left.
 
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