Alton Sterling and Philandro Castile

[Matata]

I am hearing things this morning about the Castile shooting that may change the picture. There may be recorded radio traffic before the shooting that say the officer was stopping him because he fit the description of a robber they were looking for. If that is the case and in hearing that the gun he had may have been in his lap, this changes the whole picture of that cop's mindset when he walked up to the car.

The cop's attorney is making the claim the cop reacted to a gun not race. It as well as the excuse that he fit the description of a robber has been used before to try to clear trigger happy cops. Remember the black man (can't remember if he was pro athlete but he was a well-known public figure) who was thrown to the ground outside a luxury hotel because he resembled someone the cops were looking for? All black people look alike, right?

If there is video evidence that Castile aimed a gun at the cop, that surely changes the ball game. Anything short of that, we're still dealing with a cop who imho made an egregious error.

 

[redwood66]

I am hearing things this morning about the Castile shooting that may change the picture. There may be recorded radio traffic before the shooting that say the officer was stopping him because he fit the description of a robber they were looking for. If that is the case and in hearing that the gun he had may have been in his lap, this changes the whole picture of that cop's mindset when he walked up to the car.

The cop's attorney is making the claim the cop reacted to a gun not race. It as well as the excuse that he fit the description of a robber has been used before to try to clear trigger happy cops. Remember the black man (can't remember if he was pro athlete but he was a well-known public figure) who was thrown to the ground outside a luxury hotel because he resembled someone the cops were looking for? All black people look alike, right?

If there is video evidence that Castile aimed a gun at the cop, that surely changes the ball game. Anything short of that, we're still dealing with a cop who imho made an egregious error.

You are not getting what I am saying about the mindset of the cop at the time of the stop. Which is why I said if you have not been in that position then you have no idea what you are talking about. Excuse? You are intimating that the cop knew that this was not the robber ahead of time and planned to shoot him. I listened to this recorded radio traffic not the attorney for the cop. Castile did not have to aim the gun at the cop for the cop to be concerned upon seeing it and possibly thinking this was the robber they were looking for. In order to not escalate a situation the cop would have told Castile the reason for the stop was a tail light so he could gain a better look at them for identity purposes. The gun in view would change the mindset immediately.

You have a negative view of cops and immediately ASSUME the worst which is just as bad as assuming that all black men are criminals.

 

[Matata]

I get what you're saying. I have a different opinion about what you're saying. I was addressing the fact that the cop's attorney is making the claim there was a gun in Castile's lap. It is the attorney's job to cast blame on the victim and to exonerate the cop.

Your logic doesn't ring true for me in some of your postings. So cops lie to an alleged perp about the reason for being pulled over in order to not escalate a situation and then the alleged perp is dead. There is something missing in the middle. I get that the cop's mind set changed under the assumption Castile may have been a perp and if there was a gun in his lap, I absolutely understand why the cop would become concerned about his safety. It seems to me that being pulled over under false pretenses has as much potential to escalate a situation as being truthful. But as you claim, I am not a cop and while I can empathize with their situation, I can't completely comprehend it if I haven't walked in their shoes.

I'm curious to see how it all plays out. How did the cops determine Castile met the description of the alleged perp? Cops made the id through a window of a moving car? Did the alleged perp have the same hair style as Castile; was he wearing similar clothes in the same colors; driving a similar car?

 

[redwood66]

I should have said the cop "might" have told them that. It is standard training to not escalate a situation - so you saying the cop "lied" is misleading and inflammatory.

 

[JaneSmith]

'All lives matter' is a racist dog whistle. Yes, all human beings matter, but when it is said like this, in the context of people raising the point that black lives matter, that black people are worthy of being thought of as human, treated as human, and that a large group of people are concerned that black people specifically are at greater risk, it erases the focus of the conversation. That is the point of 'all lives matter', to erase discourse on black lives, specifically, mattering.
It's like trying to have a conversation about female genital mutilation, and having someone change the topic to talking about how circumcision is bad and all genitals matter.
It's like talking about a Star of David on a Hillary Clinton poster being antisemitic, and having someone change the topic to talking about how all religious bigotry is harmful and all religions matter.





Marquise_Madness, that is horrible, good luck to you.

By your thoughts then President Obama is whistling a racist dog whistle?

He said this yesterday:

So when people say “Black Lives Matter,” that doesn’t mean blue lives don’t matter; it just means all lives matter, but right now the big concern is the fact that the data shows black folks are more vulnerable to these kinds of incidents.

I do not believe your statement that All Lives Matter is some subversive secret meaning. I just think many people (all colors) are tired of the destruction that the BLM groups are causing supposedly to make their case. Why is it ok to stop all traffic on a major freeway that everyone uses to make a point? And don't bring up the Selma bridge because we are in a totally different time. Their shutdown of the freeway affects the whole city and its commerce. And why is it necessary to paint in red "murderers" on a police station? Peaceful demonstrations are not happening all over. And it affects their ability to have their voice heard.

No, I don't think he is at all. I think he is using the term by turning it back on the people who would use it to erase the specificity of BLM in a sentence explaining BLM. He and his staff are good with words.

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Matata]

I should have said the cop "might" have told them that. It is standard training to not escalate a situation - so you saying the cop "lied" is misleading and inflammatory.

No ma'am, you are wrong about the bolded. Whether told for a noble reason, heroic deed, or criminal purpose, a lie is a lie is a lie.

 

[redwood66]

I think I am done stating my point about waiting for due process on these cases. I stand by my opinion that sensationalizing and whipping up fervor only makes the situation worse. Carry on people.

 

[Dancing Fire]

MM, your story is one I've heard too often (black people stopped by police.) Of course, we should discuss all these issues.
Compared to police shootings, it seems like there's not much focus on young black men who are shot in such huge numbers by other young black men or on the huge number of black men in prison. These are problems that, I think, are mostly due to poverty. Maybe this isn't discussed because these issues seem so overwhelming, but that's no excuse.
Here, as in most settings, we tend to discuss whatever is on the news at the time; this isn't criticizing the posters here. Still it's a valid point.

That is a MASSIVE part of it.

So what is the solution?

Lessening the income divide for one thing. Raising the minimum wage to a living wage and making education better, equalizing the playing field for all schools and children and making higher education more accessible and affordable to low income families are others.

I'd agree with part of your post. Educations are free up to HS level, so why do we still have so many kids drop out of HS?

 

[JaneSmith]

Travel advisory for black (men specifically) traveling to US:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36755182

Like the one from the UK a couple of months ago warning LGBT people about the US.

Countries are literally having to warn their black and LGBT citizens about the US.

 

[redwood66]

Travel advisory for black (men specifically) traveling to US:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36755182

Like the one from the UK a couple of months ago warning LGBT people about the US.

Countries are literally having to warn their black and LGBT citizens about the US.

This makes me just a bit sad. On one hand it casts a bad light on the US and furthers the opinion that the whole country is the "wild west." But on the other it does say "don't be confrontational and cooperate" when interacting with the police. This is a good thing and should be said.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I think the only contribution I can make here is to say that while the Criminal Justice system in our country states that an individual is innocent until proven guilty, it is for a prosecutor, defense attorney, Judge and Jury to assign the guilty or innocent verdict. It is for that system to assess the evidence.

It is inconceivable to me that no opinions be expressed or allowed until this verdict is passed. No, we don't have to wait. I will never be a member of that jury so I am free to think what I please from the evidence we see and hear from public information. We have videos, witnesses, and info provided by police and reporters. My brain still works. Do you think we are zombies?

It is completely absurd to think we should wait for a verdict, after all the evidence is in, and then discuss it.

I do not understand why some people can't separate the awfulness of black men being killed by police officers, and the awfulness of police officers being shot by a black man.

These are two issues that need addressing, and quickly.

Annette

 

[luv2sparkle]

Hearing reports now that Castile did not have a permit to carry a weapon. It is sounding more and more like the said girlfriend was making her own narrative.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Hearing reports now that Castile did not have a permit to carry a weapon. It is sounding more and more like the said girlfriend was making her own narrative.

Yes. I have seen several things in the news today that change the initial impressions given by the media. This is why redwood was correct that we can discuss but not draw final conclusions because all the evidence is not in.

 

[AGBF]

Hearing reports now that Castile did not have a permit to carry a weapon. It is sounding more and more like the said girlfriend was making her own narrative.

Yes. I have seen several things in the news today that change the initial impressions given by the media. This is why redwood was correct that we can discuss but not draw final conclusions because all the evidence is not in.

I completely disagree. As Annette said, we are not zombies here. We are also not monks who have taken an oath of silence. Why on earth should we not discuss this, even drawing (perhaps erroneous) conclusions? If we were on a jury, we would be bound by a rule not to sentence the policeman who was accused, but as jewelry lovers we are free to talk all we want.

 

[redwood66]

Hearing reports now that Castile did not have a permit to carry a weapon. It is sounding more and more like the said girlfriend was making her own narrative.

Yes. I have seen several things in the news today that change the initial impressions given by the media. This is why redwood was correct that we can discuss but not draw final conclusions because all the evidence is not in.

I completely disagree. As Annette said, we are not zombies here. We are also not monks who have taken an oath of silence. Why on earth should we not discuss this, even drawing (perhaps erroneous) conclusions? If we were on a jury, we would be bound by a rule not to sentence the policeman who was accused, but as jewelry lovers we are free to talk all we want.

Discuss away!

 

[missy]

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

JaneSmith, this gave me shivers and brings tears to my eyes. Thank you for sharing this quote of Martin Luther King Jr.
All these decades later it still rings true.



I finally get it. Thank you to this thread for opening my eyes. I was ignorant about the Black Lives Matter movement and I am grateful this discussion is happening here so I could finally learn what I should have learned years ago. It wasn't on my radar so shame on me but now it is and thanks to this thread and the people sharing here.


and if I may share another quote from Martin Luther King Jr. One of my personal favorites.

“Never, never be afraid to do what’s right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. Society’s punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way.”

 

[Tekate]

Hearing reports now that Castile did not have a permit to carry a weapon. It is sounding more and more like the said girlfriend was making her own narrative.

This is what SNOPES has to report:

http://www.snopes.com/philando-castile-was-not-wanted-for-armed-robbery/

 

[luv2sparkle]

. I did NOT say he was wanted for armed robbery. I said that reports had come out that he was not licensed to carry a weapon as his "girlfriend stated he had told the officer in her video. The agency that gives out licenses said he had never been issued one.

 

[Tekate]

I did NOT say you did. I was just posting what SNOPES said about the whole situation and thought you might like to read it.

. I did NOT say he was wanted for armed robbery. I said that reports had come out that he was not licensed to carry a weapon as his "girlfriend stated he had told the officer in her video. The agency that gives out licenses said he had never been issued one.

 

[redwood66]

Hearing reports now that Castile did not have a permit to carry a weapon. It is sounding more and more like the said girlfriend was making her own narrative.

This is what SNOPES has to report:

http://www.snopes.com/philando-castile-was-not-wanted-for-armed-robbery/

Thank you for that. I had not seen some of those pictures. The item on his lap appears to be a gun, what kind I cannot tell.

 

[Tekate]

Could be redwood, so far it's not been identified in the news if there was a gun or not, like you say, I will withhold judgement till all the information is out there

 

[JaneSmith]

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.

JaneSmith, this gave me shivers and brings tears to my eyes. Thank you for sharing this quote of Martin Luther King Jr.
All these decades later it still rings true.



I finally get it. Thank you to this thread for opening my eyes. I was ignorant about the Black Lives Matter movement and I am grateful this discussion is happening here so I could finally learn what I should have learned years ago. It wasn't on my radar so shame on me but now it is and thanks to this thread and the people sharing here.


and if I may share another quote from Martin Luther King Jr. One of my personal favorites.

“Never, never be afraid to do what’s right, especially if the well-being of a person or animal is at stake. Society’s punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way.”

This is wonderful. This is what happens when we talk to each other and share ideas. I promise to be more thankful of other PSers when something important is learned, as you have done here. A fine example you set for us, Missy.

 

[NonieMarie]

I feel bad for the families and I am overwhelmed by the number of people shot by police. I can't imagine being a mom worried about whether or not your sons will come home. Police who cannot use some restraint need to be let go in my opinion. They have hard job and I am sure they fear for their lives every day the go to work.


However, Alton Sterling was a convicted felon who had a weapon (illegally) on him in his pocket. He was not compliant and lying on the ground. The officers had every expectation that he could be trying to get that weapon out. While I wish that he hadn't been shot, he bears some of the responsibility for his actions in that case.

His hand was no where near the gun! From what I saw, there were 2 officers yelling about a gun in his pocket, then started shooting. You see the one officer coming back, putting his hand inside the pocket and pulling out a gun.
This will keep happening until "the blue wall" comes down. The majority of police officers are good and professional. But when these good officers protect the bad, they are doing a disservice to the profession and the safety of the public.

 

[Matata]

I feel bad for the families and I am overwhelmed by the number of people shot by police. I can't imagine being a mom worried about whether or not your sons will come home. Police who cannot use some restraint need to be let go in my opinion. They have hard job and I am sure they fear for their lives every day the go to work.


However, Alton Sterling was a convicted felon who had a weapon (illegally) on him in his pocket. He was not compliant and lying on the ground. The officers had every expectation that he could be trying to get that weapon out. While I wish that he hadn't been shot, he bears some of the responsibility for his actions in that case.

His hand was no where near the gun! From what I saw, there were 2 officers yelling about a gun in his pocket, then started shooting. You see the one officer coming back, putting his hand inside the pocket and pulling out a gun.
This will keep happening until "the blue wall" comes down. The majority of police officers are good and professional. But when these good officers protect the bad, they are doing a disservice to the profession and the safety of the public.

It's been claimed that he was actively resisting and attempting to reach for his gun according to an analysis done by the PD. Sterling was tased twice before he was tackled. Tasing causes loss of muscle control. The active resistance we see when he's on the ground could be the result of the tasing.

 

[Marquise_Madness]

My cousin knew the officer who shot Philando very well, and the partner as well. They went to college together. He doesn't know any specifics, but this is what the press has said.

-Philando had a permit
-Yanez was reacting to the presence of a weapon (not sure if it was pointed at him, but it was in the car)
-Castile did resemble a robbery suspect

Did Castile deserve 4 bullets? Absolutely not. Both my cousin and I feel sick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ame]

I feel bad for the families and I am overwhelmed by the number of people shot by police. I can't imagine being a mom worried about whether or not your sons will come home. Police who cannot use some restraint need to be let go in my opinion. They have hard job and I am sure they fear for their lives every day the go to work.


However, Alton Sterling was a convicted felon who had a weapon (illegally) on him in his pocket. He was not compliant and lying on the ground. The officers had every expectation that he could be trying to get that weapon out. While I wish that he hadn't been shot, he bears some of the responsibility for his actions in that case.

His hand was no where near the gun! From what I saw, there were 2 officers yelling about a gun in his pocket, then started shooting. You see the one officer coming back, putting his hand inside the pocket and pulling out a gun.
This will keep happening until "the blue wall" comes down. The majority of police officers are good and professional. But when these good officers protect the bad, they are doing a disservice to the profession and the safety of the public.

Not one video indicates he was anywhere near the gun, and as stated above--the officer has to reach ALL THE WAY IN to get it--or that you can even tell he has one. He had already been tased, and tossed on the hood. That is where he should've been cuffed and put into the car. At no time did he fight them or become an issue. His hands were NO WHERE NEAR that pocket. They were above his waist, near his head. His past criminal history has no bearing on this case. None. It's getting really f'ing old trying to explain that.

I have an even bigger issue with the fact that they illegally seized all copies of the videos, and without warrants to do so. They also detained--illegally--at least one of the people filming their activities. That says quite a lot about the case right there--as in, shit, we totally went too far, we cannot prove deadly force because this person did not have the ability or opportunity to shoot at us or injury us (he was just tased twice and was on his back!), the capability to do so (again, tased twice, and on his back, could not reach his gun), and did not have the intent (had no way to do so, was incapacitated.) Thus, there is no justifiable use of force. The only reason that officer can possibly have yelled "he has a gun" before the other one unloaded those shots is to try to defend their already indefensible actions. They did not realize so many cameras were on them. And right afterwards, as soon as they figured that out, panic set in. Seize all the proof and write your story however you want.

 

[momhappy]

I prefer not to speculate.
I also prefer not to watch the videos and/or get caught up in the media.
If the officers involved acted inappropriately, I would hope that they are dealt with appropriately and that others can learn from their mistakes. I feel sad for the families involved.

 

[Marquise_Madness]

Everything is getting so polarized.

I'm not anti police. I had an issue with that specific officer. I had an incident and got a bad vibe and pegged him as a bully with an authority complex.

I'm not racist either. I'm not anti black. I'm white but my fiancé is black and my children will be black. My city is torn now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[arkieb1]

http://www.upworthy.com/3-very-different-tweets-reveal-a-painful-truth-about-inequality-in-america?c=ufb1

 

[Matata]

North Carolina has solved the problem of those pesky police body cams and dashboard cams by passing a law removing them from public records law and making it difficult for those eligible to view them to get access. Now ain't that nice.
http://www.governing.com/topics/public-justice-safety/tns-north-carolina-policy-body-camera.html