Alligator Drags Toddler Into Lagoon at Disney Resort

[packrat]

Kenny, that's part of what gets me.

It's like we think b/c we're human, we're better, we can do whatever we want, we can go wherever we want, at all times, regardless. I don't agree w/that. There's alligators in alligator territory--heck, alligators get into people's backyards and into their pools for heavens sakes, why would we think it's ok to be where they naturally live? Sharks are in the oceans. That's where they live. You'd naturally expect that you could have a chance to meet one, whenever you're in the ocean. There's bears in Minnesota. We've seen them running across the highway when we're up there going to the resort and take the time to explain to the kids guess what, this is bear country and they're not cuddly and fuzzy. We have bobcats and mountain lions. JD takes precautions when he's out early morning and late at night in the timbers b/c you never know. That's their territory. Yes, it's horribly horribly upsetting and tragic and cuts you to the core when something happens, especially when it's a child. But that doesn't minimize our responsibility for our own safety, and the safety of our children. Any time you are in a wild animals territory, it's not about *you* anymore, and you are, like it or not, in *their* territory, and they are *predatory animals*. They prey on other animals, and that's what they see you as, prey, or a threat.

Now other animals die b/c an animal was doing what comes naturally to it, what it's designed by nature to do. Hunt. Eat. Defend.

 

[Loves Vintage]

Kenny, that's part of what gets me.

It's like we think b/c we're human, we're better, we can do whatever we want, we can go wherever we want, at all times, regardless. I don't agree w/that. There's alligators in alligator territory--heck, alligators get into people's backyards and into their pools for heavens sakes, why would we think it's ok to be where they naturally live? Sharks are in the oceans. That's where they live. You'd naturally expect that you could have a chance to meet one, whenever you're in the ocean. There's bears in Minnesota. We've seen them running across the highway when we're up there going to the resort and take the time to explain to the kids guess what, this is bear country and they're not cuddly and fuzzy. We have bobcats and mountain lions. JD takes precautions when he's out early morning and late at night in the timbers b/c you never know. That's their territory. Yes, it's horribly horribly upsetting and tragic and cuts you to the core when something happens, especially when it's a child. But that doesn't minimize our responsibility for our own safety, and the safety of our children. Any time you are in a wild animals territory, it's not about *you* anymore, and you are, like it or not, in *their* territory, and they are *predatory animals*. They prey on other animals, and that's what they see you as, prey, or a threat.

Now other animals die b/c an animal was doing what comes naturally to it, what it's designed by nature to do. Hunt. Eat. Defend.

Does it also bother you when a person goes into an animal's territory and shoots the animal for no reason whatsoever?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I can't imagine anything much more horrific than this for a parent. It is so easy in hindsight to make judgments about mistakes made. On Disney's part, multiple NO SWIMMING signs were posted which may cover them legally. When I see that kind of sign, it means there is a reason those signs are posted (as in danger) and it means to stat OUT of the water. I can see how these parents may have felt wading ankle deep was safe since they didn't realize why the no swimming signs were posted. I guess now Disney can add danger/alligator signs at every body of water. Maybe that will get the message across. As for me, I won't be going in any water in FL unless it is a swimming pool.

I am not sure about the killing of random alligators since the child cannot be recovered alive. In the case of the gorilla, there was a chance to save the life of the child by killing the gorilla, which was certainly a tragic situation. In this case, I wonder if someone had had a gun, if they could have shot the alligator so that the child could have been rescued.

 

[liaerfbv]

Listen, this is a terrible tragedy. But this is Florida. Alligators live here. There are something like 30,000 lakes in this state. Plus alligators are SMART and they give no shits about your fences and deterrents. This family was not swimming in a "Disney beach" - they were swimming in a restricted area behind the resort with clearly marked signs that say "DO NOT SWIM." I can't be pissed if I go visit Colorado and go hiking, walk off trail to an area that says "Do Not Hike" and get mauled by a cougar.

Not one for empathy, eh?

BTW, how did you learn this was a restricted area?

I used to live in Orlando, have been an annual passholder at Disney for years, and I've stayed in every single Disney resort except the brand new Contemporary addition. It's PRETTY CLEAR where you are not supposed to be as a guest. There are so many signs, arrows, gates, etc. pointing you away from/locking you out of the various non-guest areas. I haven't been to the specific area they were at (obviously as it's a non-guest area and I'm one for generally following rules), but I'm curious how they even got back there.

It's terrible what happened to that child - I don't swim in lakes because I am TERRIFIED of alligators, so what happened to him is one of my very worst nightmares. That doesn't change the fact that this was a completely avoidable situation if 1) the parents had done a tiny drop of their own due diligence and 2) followed the rules.

 

[liaerfbv]

Listen, this is a terrible tragedy. But this is Florida. Alligators live here. There are something like 30,000 lakes in this state. Plus alligators are SMART and they give no shits about your fences and deterrents. This family was not swimming in a "Disney beach" - they were swimming in a restricted area behind the resort with clearly marked signs that say "DO NOT SWIM." I can't be pissed if I go visit Colorado and go hiking, walk off trail to an area that says "Do Not Hike" and get mauled by a cougar.

Not one for empathy, eh?

I don't think that's really fair.

I think in this case empathy/sympathy may go without saying.

I'm sure liaerfbv has plenty of empathy and is only stating natural facts many are not aware of.
We humans are the invaders of gators' natural habitat.
As development increases so will unfortunate and tragic human contact with gators.

Who knows, maybe her educating us may save a life.

BTW, BBC is reporting they've captured and cut open four gators looking for remains, to no avail.
Couldn't they have X-rayed and released them?
But here again, as with the killing of that gorilla, we have those who feel human life is superior/special.

Thanks Kenny. Apparently having empathy and common sense are mutually exclusive to some people.

 

[Laila619]

This hurts so bad. I cannot even imagine what those poor parents are going through. Just a nice family trying to give their kids a fun summer vacation, and then this happens. So awful and gut wrenching.

I've read nothing that says they were in a restricted area. Just because it says no swimming does not mean the sand/beach area is restricted.

 

[monarch64]

Accidents happen. You can do your due diligence and google and be armed with all the info in the world, but when you have kids and you're trying to have a good time, sometimes pleasure-seeking becomes the focus and common sense goes out the window. Approaching this topic with a little sensitivity might behoove some here, although Liarfbv I know you have stated previously that you do not care about how you come across nor does it bother you in the least if others find your words insensitive. That's your prerogative, and apparently of some others here, but I am almost positive if it were your child or your family you'd be singing a different freakin' tune.

This family REALLY should've done their homework about camping, guess it serves them right:

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/publicsafety/tree-branch-falls-on-campground-tent-and-kills-mishawaka-boy/article_19fd1648-3266-11e6-95de-9f7e201c403a.html

 

[liaerfbv]

Accidents happen. You can do your due diligence and google and be armed with all the info in the world, but when you have kids and you're trying to have a good time, sometimes pleasure-seeking becomes the focus and common sense goes out the window. Approaching this topic with a little sensitivity might behoove some here, although Liarfbv I know you have stated previously that you do not care about how you come across nor does it bother you in the least if others find your words insensitive. That's your prerogative, and apparently of some others here, but I am almost positive if it were your child or your family you'd be singing a different freakin' tune.

This family REALLY should've done their homework about camping, guess it serves them right:

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/publicsafety/tree-branch-falls-on-campground-tent-and-kills-mishawaka-boy/article_19fd1648-3266-11e6-95de-9f7e201c403a.html

I don't think anyone here has said anything insensitive. Everyone agrees this is a tragedy. However, blaming Disney when "you have kids and you're trying to have a good time, sometimes pleasure-seeking becomes the focus and common sense goes out the window" (as you say) and then something tragic happens -- that just sounds like terrible parenting to me and I don't have a problem saying that. You're welcome to disagree.

 

[Kaleigh]

I cannot imagine the pain the parents are going through right now. It's not a time to blame them. Grieve for them and know that this was a horrible tragedy. I would never think of alligators there, it's Disney. The happiest place on earth... But we all know caution and the like. Just a tragic thing

 

[Matata]

Accidents happen. You can do your due diligence and google and be armed with all the info in the world, but when you have kids and you're trying to have a good time, sometimes pleasure-seeking becomes the focus and common sense goes out the window. Approaching this topic with a little sensitivity might behoove some here, although Liarfbv I know you have stated previously that you do not care about how you come across nor does it bother you in the least if others find your words insensitive. That's your prerogative, and apparently of some others here, but I am almost positive if it were your child or your family you'd be singing a different freakin' tune.

This family REALLY should've done their homework about camping, guess it serves them right:

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/publicsafety/tree-branch-falls-on-campground-tent-and-kills-mishawaka-boy/article_19fd1648-3266-11e6-95de-9f7e201c403a.html

Either this topic has deep emotional resonance with you or you are a bit too caught up in the opportunity to point out what you think is the correct way to communicate. You went after arkie yesterday because you though her tone was too angry. Your prerogative but I don't think anyone here owes it to you to meet your standards of tone, empathy, sensitivity.

You contradicted yourself in the bolded above. It's not an accident when common sense goes out the window. It's negligence. So thanks for corroborating liaerby's statement.

If Disney owns the property with the alligator infested lagoon, it has the responsibility of posting a "warning alligators" sign. That poor child could have been taken from the waters edge also so whether or not the child was in the water is irrelevant when compared to the hunting method of gators. That's why a "warning alligators" sign should have been posted. That does not absolve anyone of the personal responsibility for their safety and those of their children. When this goes to court, there will be discussion about what a "reasonable" person should assume about whatever signs/gates were present and a decision will made based upon which party bears the most responsibility. Imho, it's Disney.

 

[monarch64]

Accidents happen. You can do your due diligence and google and be armed with all the info in the world, but when you have kids and you're trying to have a good time, sometimes pleasure-seeking becomes the focus and common sense goes out the window. Approaching this topic with a little sensitivity might behoove some here, although Liarfbv I know you have stated previously that you do not care about how you come across nor does it bother you in the least if others find your words insensitive. That's your prerogative, and apparently of some others here, but I am almost positive if it were your child or your family you'd be singing a different freakin' tune.

This family REALLY should've done their homework about camping, guess it serves them right:

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/publicsafety/tree-branch-falls-on-campground-tent-and-kills-mishawaka-boy/article_19fd1648-3266-11e6-95de-9f7e201c403a.html

Either this topic has deep emotional resonance with you or you are a bit too caught up in the opportunity to point out what you think is the correct way to communicate. You went after arkie yesterday because you though her tone was too angry. Your prerogative but I don't think anyone here owes it to you to meet your standards of tone, empathy, sensitivity.

You contradicted yourself in the bolded above. It's not an accident when common sense goes out the window. It's negligence. So thanks for corroborating liaerby's statement.

If Disney owns the property with the alligator infested lagoon, it has the responsibility of posting a "warning alligators" sign. That poor child could have been taken from the waters edge also so whether or not the child was in the water is irrelevant when compared to the hunting method of gators. That's why a "warning alligators" sign should have been posted. That does not absolve anyone of the personal responsibility for their safety and those of their children. When this goes to court, there will be discussion about what a "reasonable" person should assume about whatever signs/gates were present and a decision will made based upon which party bears the most responsibility. Imho, it's Disney.

Well, thank you for coming along and pointing out that I should not have gone after someone. Hmm. I told Arkie I disagreed with her in that thread and got a lengthy tirade back from her. I then said I was having a little trouble hearing her points through her passion. I thought she and I handled things appropriately, sorry you did not approve.

I will quietly see myself out, as I can tell I am striking some of your nerves. Peace.

 

[kenny]

I'm not giving Disney a pass on this, but scary signs scare people, and their money, away.
I'd bet that this has all been discussed and the business decision was made not not let warning signs be too scary.

Clearly, now, Disney's legal team and insurers will get those scary signs up.

 

[Matata]

Well, thank you for coming along and pointing out that I should not have gone after someone. Hmm. I told Arkie I disagreed with her in that thread and got a lengthy tirade back from her. I then said I was having a little trouble hearing her points through her passion. I thought she and I handled things appropriately, sorry you did not approve.

I will quietly see myself out, as I can tell I am striking some of your nerves. Peace.

Just a difference of opinion. I don't think arkie's posts were a tirade and her passion wasn't too loud for my ears. I appreciate unadorned straight talk. You don't and called it out on that discussion and here. I called you out for same. Goose/gander. Hmm. Sorry the heat is driving you from the kitchen. I enjoy your posts and respect your point of view even when we don't agree.

 

[Matata]

I'm not giving Disney a pass on this, but scary signs scare people, and their money, away.
I'd bet that this has all been discussed and the business decision was made not not let warning signs be too scary.

Clearly, now, Disney's legal team and insurers will get those scary signs up.

I dunno Kenny. If this was a restricted area I don't think it applies. And from my experience working with attorneys general on the state level about liability issues, it's always better to do the safest thing rather than pay millions defending in lawsuits. It's been reported in some news stories that other resorts in the area have warning signs about gators posted and that apparently has not scared enough people away to affect their bottom line.

 

[Laila619]

People are really hypocrites. If a young woman gets black-out wasted from binge drinking in public, it's okay and she is not going to be held accountable if something bad happens to her. She has no responsibility to educate herself and keep herself safe. But now these poor parents are at fault that their kid got killed by an alligator? Because they were not being responsible somehow (when it still isn't even clear if this is the case)? Come on. You can't have it both ways. They were at a resort with tons of other vacationers. Nowhere has any article stated that the parents were in a restricted area or doing something wrong.

 

[monarch64]

Well, thank you for coming along and pointing out that I should not have gone after someone. Hmm. I told Arkie I disagreed with her in that thread and got a lengthy tirade back from her. I then said I was having a little trouble hearing her points through her passion. I thought she and I handled things appropriately, sorry you did not approve.

I will quietly see myself out, as I can tell I am striking some of your nerves. Peace.

Just a difference of opinion. I don't think arkie's posts were a tirade and her passion wasn't too loud for my ears. I appreciate unadorned straight talk. You don't and called it out on that discussion and here. I called you out for same. Goose/gander. Hmm. Sorry the heat is driving you from the kitchen. I enjoy your posts and respect your point of view even when we don't agree.

I am in emotional upheaval right now over the Orlando events and some personal things that are causing me stress, so yes, I have been a bit more vocal online and more sensitive about some of the reactions I've seen this week. The heat is driving me to step away from the internet and go outside where I should be anyway. My feelings are hurt right now but I'm sure I'll recover. Have a good day.

 

[packrat]

Kenny, that's part of what gets me.

It's like we think b/c we're human, we're better, we can do whatever we want, we can go wherever we want, at all times, regardless. I don't agree w/that. There's alligators in alligator territory--heck, alligators get into people's backyards and into their pools for heavens sakes, why would we think it's ok to be where they naturally live? Sharks are in the oceans. That's where they live. You'd naturally expect that you could have a chance to meet one, whenever you're in the ocean. There's bears in Minnesota. We've seen them running across the highway when we're up there going to the resort and take the time to explain to the kids guess what, this is bear country and they're not cuddly and fuzzy. We have bobcats and mountain lions. JD takes precautions when he's out early morning and late at night in the timbers b/c you never know. That's their territory. Yes, it's horribly horribly upsetting and tragic and cuts you to the core when something happens, especially when it's a child. But that doesn't minimize our responsibility for our own safety, and the safety of our children. Any time you are in a wild animals territory, it's not about *you* anymore, and you are, like it or not, in *their* territory, and they are *predatory animals*. They prey on other animals, and that's what they see you as, prey, or a threat.

Now other animals die b/c an animal was doing what comes naturally to it, what it's designed by nature to do. Hunt. Eat. Defend.

Does it also bother you when a person goes into an animal's territory and shoots the animal for no reason whatsoever?

I'm not sure what exactly you're meaning here. Hunting? Poaching? Random shooting? Hunting isn't the same as culling a group of a specific animal b/c a human was attacked.

 

[kenny]

It just seems to me that if this family sues a jury will be very very sympathetic and award generous quantities of Disney's money regardless of the judges instructions to follow the letter of the law.

They watched their two year old get eaten by a croc.
I'm not arguing one way or the other about the legalities here.

I just can't imagine much that would pull at a juror's heartstrings more than visualizing the boy's terror and seeing these two parents sobbing in the courtroom.

 

[Rockinruby]

Here are some updated links. One shows the type of signs that another resort chose to use. The other is an update on the search for remains with map of the resort layout.

http://www.tmz.com/2016/06/15/disney-alligator-attack-signs-warning-hyatt/


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/06/14/reports-alligator-drags-child-into-water-fla/85905266/

 

[liaerfbv]

People are really hypocrites. If a young woman gets black-out wasted from binge drinking in public, it's okay and she is not going to be held accountable if something bad happens to her. She has no responsibility to educate herself and keep herself safe. But now these poor parents are at fault that their kid got killed by an alligator? Because they were not being responsible somehow (when it still isn't even clear if this is the case)? Come on. You can't have it both ways. They were at a resort with tons of other vacationers. Nowhere has any article stated that the parents were in a restricted area or doing something wrong.

Are you kidding me? Seriously?

If someone drinks to excess and walks out into traffic and killed, that action is on them. If someone drinks to excess and is sexually assaulted, NO, I don't hold them responsible because ANOTHER PERSON MADE THE CONSCIOUS, NON-ACCIDENTAL CHOICE TO ASSAULT THEM. You don't slip and fall and rape someone.

I have always respected your posts, Laila, but insinuation you've made here is disgusting.

 

[telephone89]

People are really hypocrites. If a young woman gets black-out wasted from binge drinking in public, it's okay and she is not going to be held accountable if something bad happens to her. She has no responsibility to educate herself and keep herself safe. But now these poor parents are at fault that their kid got killed by an alligator? Because they were not being responsible somehow (when it still isn't even clear if this is the case)? Come on. You can't have it both ways. They were at a resort with tons of other vacationers. Nowhere has any article stated that the parents were in a restricted area or doing something wrong.

This is one of the most disgusting posts I've ever read on PS. I cannot believe someone would compare rape to parental negligence.

I do agree with 1 of your points. They were at a resort with tons of other vacationers. Who obeyed the 'no swimming' signs.

 

[kenny]

Honest question here for those who live in FL. (They know best.)
Is is reasonable to expect a large body of water in Florida would be, could be, gator free?

I can imagine this only where there is a solid tall fence of a material like brick and where the body of water is a swimming pool with a cement bottom and sides, with clear enough water and light enough bottom to SEE such a creature.

That Disney is all-powerful family-friendly Disney, and that this is a tourist resort does not change nature.
It's not a Magic Kingdom. (Sorry, but the pun was just sitting there.)

 

[Laila619]

Liaerfbv and telephone, the point I was (unsuccessfully) trying to make is that we can't pick and choose--we should apply the same standards for everyone. Either people need to be held accountable for their own safety or they don't. I don't see how this family did anything wrong. They are blameless. Just as a woman who got raped is blameless. How would the average tourist know that their child might get eaten by an alligator? It's not like they were visiting an alligator park or the Everglades or something. Anybody blaming the parents really has no empathy here. This is the most horrifying thing anyone can ever go through in life, the death of a child.

 

[telephone89]

Liaerfbv and telephone, the point I was (unsuccessfully) trying to make is that we can't pick and choose--we should apply the same standards for everyone. Either people need to be held accountable for their own safety or they don't. I don't see how this family did anything wrong. They are blameless. Just as a woman who got raped is blameless. How would the average tourist know that their child might get eaten by an alligator? It's not like they were visiting an alligator park or the Everglades or something.

Maybe you've forgotten where the Everglades are? Just because you are a hotel or amusement park doesn't mean you aren't still in that state/area. They aren't bubbles.

 

[kenny]

A No Swimming sign is inadequate to protect against gators.

Sure, the kid wasn't 'swimming'.
Reportedly he was wading in 1-ft deep water when the gator snatched him.
But I've seen nature docs of gators waiting motionless and still, underwater, at the water's edge with only their nostrils and eyes above water, hardly noticeable when the bottom is dark and muddy ... especially at night.

They wait for the prey to stand close enough to the water and not even in the water.
Then the gator quickly runs up and grabs the victim and drags it into the water to drown it.
Its so fast it's over in the blink of an eye.

That's why a No Swimming sign is inadequate to protect against gators.

 

[liaerfbv]

Liaerfbv and telephone, the point I was (unsuccessfully) trying to make is that we can't pick and choose--we should apply the same standards for everyone. Either people need to be held accountable for their own safety or they don't. I don't see how this family did anything wrong. They are blameless. Just as a woman who got raped is blameless. How would the average tourist know that their child might get eaten by an alligator? It's not like they were visiting an alligator park or the Everglades or something.

Laila, you cannot apply the same standard because they literally aren't even in the same universe to be compared. An alligator is an animal who does not have higher reasoning. A human enters their territory and they respond on instinct. A human DOES have higher reasoning. Someone drinks to excess (which I agree with you is a bad decision) but the other person uses their higher reasoning to NOT RAPE THEM. I just can't believe you can even try and draw this parallel. It's just wrong.

 

[liaerfbv]

Honest question here for those who live in FL. (They know best.)
Is is reasonable to expect a large body of water in Florida would be, could be, gator free?

I can imagine this only where there is a solid tall fence of a material like brick and where the body of water is a swimming pool with a cement bottom and sides, with clear enough water and light enough bottom to SEE such a creature.

That Disney is all-powerful family-friendly Disney, and that this is a tourist resort does not change nature.
It's not a Magic Kingdom. (Sorry, but the pun was just sitting there.)

No. You can never assume any body of water is 100% alligator free. There are conditions they prefer and conditions they avoid, but there can always be outliers.

 

[telephone89]

http://www.floridalakefront.com/lakefront-faqs/alligators-in-florida-lakes/

“Hey, Mike, my husband and I are moving down from (name of blizzard-stricken northern city goes here…) and we’d like to find something on one of the lakes that doesn’t have any alligators…”
...
The idea of living on a body of fresh water in Florida that does not have alligators is just not that realistic, not for very long, anyway. Alligators are a part of the natural order down here and are really quite common in most of Florida’s lakes, rivers and streams. Even the best efforts at keeping a body of water “gator-free” are guaranteed to be short lived.

No, you should not assume lakes will be gator free.

 

[telephone89]

I did want to add that the reason they were out so late was because the fireworks at Disney start around 10. I initially thought it was very odd to have a toddler out at 9pm (sunset around 8:30p) but that does make sense.

 

[Laila619]

A No Swimming sign is inadequate to protect against gators.

Sure, the kid wasn't 'swimming'.
Reportedly he was wading in 1-ft deep water when the gator snatched him.
But I've seen nature docs of gators waiting motionless and still, underwater, at the water's edge with only their nostrils and eyes above water, hardly noticeable when the bottom is dark and muddy ... especially at night.

They wait for the prey to stand close enough to the water and not even in the water.
Then the gator quickly runs up and grabs the victim and drags it into the water to drown it.
Its so fast it's over in the blink of an eye.

That's why a No Swimming sign is inadequate to protect against gators.

I agree, Kenny.

People are always so quick to blame parents for these types of tragic accidents, and it makes me so sad. It really could have happened to anyone in this instance. Nobody at any of these resorts should assume their family is safe.

If anything, though, alligators killing humans is not a super common thing, so in this case I just don't see how the parents should have forseen this happening.