AGS000 Cert. Does Not Match Diamond?

[hoorray]

"As far as qualifications, she showed me a certificate from AGTA . Additionally, she mentioned that she had sociology degree, which apparently qualified her to say that when women gossip about rings, the only thing they see is color. She said that if I bought an H, my gf would someday realize that my stone is 'yellow.' I thought this was a little aggressive so I asked her why jewelers sell - and more importanly, consumers are willing to buy - H color diamonds. She explained that it would only make sense if I lived in a rural community or if I were to be in a particular blue-collar profession. ":

I'm sorry, but as others have said, this is The reason everyone here recommends that you take a stone to an Independent appraiser for evaluation before making the deal final, and setting the stone. I know that if you don't spend lots of time here and/or really understand the fine points of how this industry works, it seems like a pain in the neck. But, for the amount of money being spent, it's a good thing to do.

As far as the quote above goes, I can't believe she expects you to buy this... I don't have a sociology degree, but I have a beautiful stone that lots of my women friends have checked out and talked about, and no one has brought up the color. They all talk abou the sparkle, and then maybe the size. No one knows the difference between E and H as long as it's a beautiful stone. (My stone is an E. I helped my friend pick out some I earrings, and no one sees the difference because they both just blaze away...).

This lady is trying to sell you a bill of goods. Walk away and find someone credible.

ETA: whoops -- I think I didn't see the second page of replies after reading the sociology remark got my ire up. I'm a little late but still just say, walk away and find someone credibl.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 7/2/2006 4:32:44 PM
Author: delonn

Additionally, she mentioned that she had sociology degree, which apparently qualified her to say that when women gossip about rings, the only thing they see is color.

Here''s how you really know she is full of ca-ca.

The only thing women see is SIZE, not color.

Sheesh!

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 7/4/2006 12:51:22 AM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 7/2/2006 4:32:44 PM
Author: delonn

Additionally, she mentioned that she had sociology degree, which apparently qualified her to say that when women gossip about rings, the only thing they see is color.

Here''s how you really know she is full of ca-ca.

The only thing women see is SIZE, not color.

Sheesh!

I think people notice size first.... then they notice how lively the stone is along with how attractively/uniquely it is set.

I don''t think they only see just size.

SO I sort of agree with you ALJ. but not totally, and I definately think the relation and comparison of color to neighborhood, is really without any basis or merit.

Rockdoc

 

[JJH]

Date: 7/2/2006 4:32:44 PM
Author: delonn
I really appreciate everyone''s feedback. I was probably asking for trouble by going to a jeweler instead of an independent appraiser. My intention of going to Goldbery was actually to have the stone set rather than to assess the merits of the diamond. In fact, we never got to talking about settings as she spent 25 minutes devaluing my stone and the other 20 minutes in pitch mode. I picked Goldberry because it was the only place that I could find, where I could view the stone (w/ an ASET, IS, H&A) before setting. She has the Presentation ASET and purchased it from the Vegas show several weeks ago when it was introduced. The caveat is that she was clearly not yet comfortable w/ the device as she could not get an ideal cut diamond that was already set to show up correctly in addition to top of the device initally being tilted. I believe this was an accident.


As far as qualifications, she showed me a certificate from AGTA . Additionally, she mentioned that she had sociology degree, which apparently qualified her to say that when women gossip about rings, the only thing they see is color. She said that if I bought an H, my gf would someday realize that my stone is ''yellow.'' I thought this was a little aggressive so I asked her why jewelers sell - and more importanly, consumers are willing to buy - H color diamonds. She explained that it would only make sense if I lived in a rural community or if I were to be in a particular blue-collar profession.


To be fair, the small second-level store was very well lit and well presented. Margie was by appointment only and had a great selection of emeralds, rubies, and high-end diamonds. Hopefully, my experience was a one-off event.


Because all three sarins show that this diamond''s crown angle is on the border of being an AGS ideal cut, my guess is that this diamond would be on the lower end of AGS000 spectrum. To my untrained eyes, I can make out 8 arrows, the stone sparkles in several types of light, and by my measurements appears very close to 8mm in diameter. Is it possible to go wrong w/ an AGS000 or GIA EX, EX, EX to the untrained person? My only real concern is that I''m paying for an ideal cut diamond when it really should have been a VG cut. Does $13,1xx seem reasonable for this type of stone? It comes out to $7,693 per ct.


The average price/ct for the following cuts is as follows:

H&A Cut 1.50-1.99 cts Round: Average $/carat = $6,847

1A Cut 1.50-1.99 cts Round: Average $/carat = $7,277

1B 1.50-1.99 cts Round: Average $/crt = $7,081


However, many of these diamonds do not have certificates and many are EGL graded. Thoughts?

Hi, I read a few of your postings and thought that I could help a little. First, I just bought an AGS 000 and it isn''t an H&A diamond. While the arrows look straight, I was told that the hearts are not perfectly aligned. So, that said, I wouldn''t worry too much about the fact that your arrows aren''t lining up perfectly.

Second, with respect to the price, there is a website that will tell you the Rapaport price and the price that is 14% below the Rapaport price. I guess the 14% below price is a typical price from the cutter, but it does vary. Anyway, the website is www.am-diamonds.com. (The diamond calculator is at the top right.) The owner of the site is most definitely committing copyright infringement by posting the Rapaport price. He calls it the "NY 47th Street Wholesale Diamond Price." He then lists the 14% below price as his price, but it isn''t his price. He just lists a low price to get people to call him. I know because I spoke with him. Anyway, what I''m trying to say is that you can go to this site to get the Rapaport price and the 14% below price. That''s all I would get from the site, nothing more. Your diamond price should fall between the 14% price and the Rapaport price. The closer to the 14% below price, the better off you are.

Third, I noticed you were trying to use diamondCalc. I tried to use it too, but it requires some password, which you can''t get. And, it''s too expensive to buy. I wouldn''t stress about it. Likely your diamond is the diamond in the cert.

It looks like a very nice diamond. You''ll be very happy with the cut.

Jonas

-x-

 

[delonn]

So the follow-up is...

None of the appraisers in MN were open today because of the holiday so I had planned on visiting one on Wednesday. However, while I was shopping for wedding presents (my cousin is getting married this weekend), I half-hazardly walked into a Helzberg Diamond (I know...mall jewelry store), which happened to have a H&A viewer and a 30x+ microscope. I asked the gentleman if I could borrow his devices and he was kind enough to allow me to use his tools. Poople in MN are just like this. So I ran home and got the diamond and spent a good 45 minutes eyeballin'' my stone. The summary is that the arrows line up but are not perfect. Similarly, the hearts are very close together and do not really look like hearts. HOWEVER, I realized how nice of a stone this really is.

I didn''t tell the gentleman anything about the stone but he ''guessed'' my stone was VVS and G in color. I asked him about the cut and he said, "this is obviously an ideal cut." While I don''t read anymore into what he said than I do the woman at Goldberry, I realized 2 things:

First, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Most of my friends think I am crazy for commiting the time and effort I have spent to find the RIGHT stone. I''m sure my girlfriend will love the stone not only because of its sparkle and size (she''s ~90 lbs. and has size 5 finger) but also because of the creativity in which I will ''pop'' the question AND most importantly, because I gave it to her. It''s easy to get caught up in the size and specs but at the end of the day, this stone signifies a bond. If at some point this ''bond'' is perceived as weaker because of a poor table size, pavilion angle, etc., I doubt that the bond was strong enough to begin with. Whether I''m in a private session w/ a jeweler in Haight-Ashbury or in a mall jewelry store in MN, I realized that it is important to take a step back and put things into perspctive. I truly believe this is where the Goldberry woman lost her grip...I actually feel sorry for her in a way.

The second thing that I learned is that if it looks like a good stone (size, clarity, color, etc.) and smells like a good stone (e.g., HCA, AGS000, etc.), it probably is. I haven''t been able stop looking at this rock since I opened the box. In fact, I only noticed that the 8 arrows were not perfect after I looked under the microscope.
For the recored, my stone is 8.3% below Rappaport and I''m quite okay w/ that. Thx Jonas...

I still may go see Nancy when I get back to SF but I''m pretty happy w/ my purchase.

 

[whatmeworry]

Good for you and Hooray for MN !

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/4/2006 2:29:29 AM
Author: JJH


Second, with respect to the price, there is a website that will tell you the Rapaport price and the price that is 14% below the Rapaport price. I guess the 14% below price is a typical price from the cutter, but it does vary. Anyway, the website is www.am-diamonds.com. (The diamond calculator is at the top right.) The owner of the site is most definitely committing copyright infringement by posting the Rapaport price. He calls it the ''NY 47th Street Wholesale Diamond Price.''

Jonas,

I don’t see any claim of a connection between ‘NY 47th Street wholesale price’ and what’s reported the Rapaport Diamond Report. Actually, I don’t see any reason to believe that NY47WP has anything to do with ANYTHING. Rap is irrelevant and deceptive as a consumer tool. NY47WP even more so.

The ''Pricescope your diamond'' tool at the top of the page is a much more useful tool for what you''re trying to accomplish.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[JJH]

Date: 7/4/2006 8:45:09 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 7/4/2006 2:29:29 AM

Author: JJH



Second, with respect to the price, there is a website that will tell you the Rapaport price and the price that is 14% below the Rapaport price. I guess the 14% below price is a typical price from the cutter, but it does vary. Anyway, the website is www.am-diamonds.com. (The diamond calculator is at the top right.) The owner of the site is most definitely committing copyright infringement by posting the Rapaport price. He calls it the ''NY 47th Street Wholesale Diamond Price.''

Jonas,


I don’t see any claim of a connection between ‘NY 47th Street wholesale price’ and what’s reported the Rapaport Diamond Report. Actually, I don’t see any reason to believe that NY47WP has anything to do with ANYTHING. Rap is irrelevant and deceptive as a consumer tool. NY47WP even more so.


The ''Pricescope your diamond'' tool at the top of the page is a much more useful tool for what you''re trying to accomplish.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ISA NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

From what I understand, and I may be wrong about this, the cutters of diamonds list their diamonds at X% off of Rapaport. So, if you''re looking to skim the margins from the retailers, this gives you a good judge of what the cutters are asking for the diamond. For example, the diamond that I purchased was 14% below Rapaport. This told me what the retailer (I bought online) was getting for selling me the diamond. Knowing his commission was an excellent bargaining tool and I was able to take advantage of it.

Jonas

-x-

 

[JJH]

Oh, and by the way, that website that I mentioned says that it is the 47th Street price, but the owner of the website told me that it is actually based on the Rapaport price. I don't know what the difference is, but sellers do tend to sell at some percent below Rapaport. Knowing the retailer's cost is important when you're trying to negotiate a purchase.

Anyway, to each his own. Knowing the price worked for me, so I don't think having some extra information is a bad thing.

Jonas

-x-

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/4/2006 8:45:09 AM
Author: denverappraiser


I don’t see any claim of a connection between ‘NY 47th Street wholesale price’ and what’s reported the Rapaport Diamond Report. Actually, I don’t see any reason to believe that NY47WP has anything to do with ANYTHING. Rap is irrelevant and deceptive as a consumer tool. NY47WP even more so.

The ''Pricescope your diamond'' tool at the top of the page is a much more useful tool for what you''re trying to accomplish.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Neil

i know you always say Rap is and deceptive to the consumer. i agree,if the vendor is trying to sell me a poorly cut stone at 30% back of Rap.

 

[denverappraiser]

Jonas,

The problem with Rap is that cutters will sell stones for anywhere from 50% under Rap up to about 25% over depending on other details of the stone that aren’t part of the index (weight clarity, color and 4 general shapes). This works just fine for the trade because it allows them to automatically link their inventory to changes in the market and both buyers and sellers are aware of the relevant issues but in isolation it causes more harm than good. One stone may be a bargain at Rap while another may be a terrible deal at 40% back but by linking the price to Rap, they get to stay current with the market either way. Viewed out of context, it loses all meaning. By no means am I suggesting that your stone is less than wonderful or that you didn’t get a great deal on it. I know nothing about it, but the fact that it was priced less than Rap (or NY47) doesn’t mean much.

Rap is NOT describing dealers’ cost and neither they pay a consistent discount from it. The tendency of dealers to promote Rap for purposes other than what is intended is almost always an attempt to deceive.

I wrote an article about this topic here.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

You can see the same thing in the database here. Search for something easy, like 1.00- 1.05 SI2 H. Then sort by price. I get 8 pages of offers ranging from $2,033 to $5,382. Rap is the same for all of them. Which is the best deal?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[jaz464]

Date: 7/4/2006 12:51:22 AM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 7/2/2006 4:32:44 PM
Author: delonn

Additionally, she mentioned that she had sociology degree, which apparently qualified her to say that when women gossip about rings, the only thing they see is color.

Here''s how you really know she is full of ca-ca.

The only thing women see is SIZE, not color.

Sheesh!

Sorry, I notice color first. Even a hint of off white turns me off, which is why my e-ring is a D.

 

[JJH]

Date: 7/4/2006 5:43:37 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Jonas,


The problem with Rap is that cutters will sell stones for anywhere from 50% under Rap up to about 25% over depending on other details of the stone that aren’t part of the index (weight clarity, color and 4 general shapes). This works just fine for the trade because it allows them to automatically link their inventory to changes in the market and both buyers and sellers are aware of the relevant issues but in isolation it causes more harm than good. One stone may be a bargain at Rap while another may be a terrible deal at 40% back but by linking the price to Rap, they get to stay current with the market either way. Viewed out of context, it loses all meaning. By no means am I suggesting that your stone is less than wonderful or that you didn’t get a great deal on it. I know nothing about it, but the fact that it was priced less than Rap (or NY47) doesn’t mean much.

Rap is NOT describing dealers’ cost and neither they pay a consistent discount from it. The tendency of dealers to promote Rap for purposes other than what is intended is almost always an attempt to deceive.

I wrote an article about this topic here.

Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ISA NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Okay, yes, I'm sure you're right. My diamond wasn't marked down due to polish or symmetry or cut, so it was probably a little easier for me. I mostly relied on the price comparisons from pricescope to figure it out. Fortunately, about seven online retailers were selling the diamond, so I just picked the lowest. And, fortunately, I worked with an online vender who told me his cost (the cutter's sale price), so I knew how far I could push to reduce the price.

Jonas

-x-

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 7/4/2006 5:48:10 PM
Author: denverappraiser

You can see the same thing in the database here. Search for something easy, like 1.00- 1.05 SI2 H. Then sort by price. I get 8 pages of offers ranging from $2,033 to $5,382. Rap is the same for all of them. Which is the best deal?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

for sure,not the $2,033 stone. too good to be true. i always ask the vendor... what''s Rap on the stone? b/c i don''t want to paid 30% over.