AGS vs GIA color grading

[permafrost]

I talked to a wholesaler (that carries both AGS and GIA) that warned that AGS is softer on color vs GIA.

And when they have a stone that won't get the color they want (from GIA), they send it to AGS.


Has anyone gotten their AGS stone graded by GIA after they purchased it?


if a seller gives you 30 days return period, I guess that's not enough time to get a GIA grading report...


how do I protect myself on differing color grading standards? appraiser evaluation vs a GIA graded master set?


it's not enough for AGS to have GIA graded master set.. and the sampling/dual graded test on prisescope isn't really enough for me to go on...

 

[TC1987]

Have it examined by an independent appraiser. There are other threads on this same subject. Use the search.

 

[WinkHPD]

I talked to a wholesaler (that carries both AGS and GIA) that warned that AGS is softer on color vs GIA.

And when they have a stone that won't get the color they want (from GIA), they send it to AGS.


Has anyone gotten their AGS stone graded by GIA after they purchased it?


if a seller gives you 30 days return period, I guess that's not enough time to get a GIA grading report...


how do I protect myself on differing color grading standards? appraiser evaluation vs a GIA graded master set?


it's not enough for AGS to have GIA graded master set.. and the sampling/dual graded test on prisescope isn't really enough for me to go on...

Your "wholesaler" needs to think about what he is saying, it simply is not accurate and does not serve him well to so represent himself. Perhaps he has an agenda, or perhaps he really believes what he is saying to be the truth, we have no way of knowing. but many people who are cutters strongly disagree with him.

This post by John Pollard gives a good overview of why some people get confused this way.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017[/URL]

Wink

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

I talked to a wholesaler (that carries both AGS and GIA) that warned that AGS is softer on color vs GIA.

And when they have a stone that won't get the color they want (from GIA), they send it to AGS.


Has anyone gotten their AGS stone graded by GIA after they purchased it?


if a seller gives you 30 days return period, I guess that's not enough time to get a GIA grading report...


how do I protect myself on differing color grading standards? appraiser evaluation vs a GIA graded master set?


it's not enough for AGS to have GIA graded master set.. and the sampling/dual graded test on prisescope isn't really enough for me to go on...

Your seller's opinion is no less valid than the opinion of any trademember or consumer here.
One or several opinions based on limited anecdotal evidence are no more or no less valid than what you have already been told.
Having one or a dozen comparisons done or adding more anecdotal evidence isn't going to help you at all, the sample size is too small.
The fact that 1 or 100 stones came back higher or lower color when comparing GIA to AGSL does not mean yours will.

If you really want to be sure have the seller submit it to GIA with preconditions that it need to come back same color and clarity or you get a refund or price adjustment.

Is your stone graded for light performance and did it attain AGS0?

 

[permafrost]

I talked to a wholesaler (that carries both AGS and GIA) that warned that AGS is softer on color vs GIA.

And when they have a stone that won't get the color they want (from GIA), they send it to AGS.


Has anyone gotten their AGS stone graded by GIA after they purchased it?


if a seller gives you 30 days return period, I guess that's not enough time to get a GIA grading report...


how do I protect myself on differing color grading standards? appraiser evaluation vs a GIA graded master set?


it's not enough for AGS to have GIA graded master set.. and the sampling/dual graded test on prisescope isn't really enough for me to go on...

Your seller's opinion is no less valid than the opinion of any trademember or consumer here.
One or several opinions based on limited anecdotal evidence are no more or no less valid than what you have already been told.
Having one or a dozen comparisons done or adding more anecdotal evidence isn't going to help you at all, the sample size is too small.
The fact that 1 or 100 stones came back higher or lower color when comparing GIA to AGSL does not mean yours will.

If you really want to be sure have the seller submit it to GIA with preconditions that it need to come back same color and clarity or you get a refund or price adjustment.

Is your stone graded for light performance and did it attain AGS0?

the AGS stones are graded for light performance, and yes, they do have an AGS 0 score

while I always take everything a seller says with a few scoops of salt, especially when it comes to disparaging the competition or explaining why their product is superior... I have also been provided additional information on who this wholesaler has sold to.. and they happen to be a seller I'm strongly considering buying from. Again, it could be total BS on this dealer's part


I do like the sales condition of having the stone graded by GIA, albeit I don't think my limited timeline allows for this grading. Any ideas on how long it takes to get a stone graded by GIA? and what the total cost of getting a stone graded + shipping both ways would be?

 

[permafrost]

I talked to a wholesaler (that carries both AGS and GIA) that warned that AGS is softer on color vs GIA.

And when they have a stone that won't get the color they want (from GIA), they send it to AGS.


Has anyone gotten their AGS stone graded by GIA after they purchased it?


if a seller gives you 30 days return period, I guess that's not enough time to get a GIA grading report...


how do I protect myself on differing color grading standards? appraiser evaluation vs a GIA graded master set?


it's not enough for AGS to have GIA graded master set.. and the sampling/dual graded test on prisescope isn't really enough for me to go on...

Your "wholesaler" needs to think about what he is saying, it simply is not accurate and does not serve him well to so represent himself. Perhaps he has an agenda, or perhaps he really believes what he is saying to be the truth, we have no way of knowing. but many people who are cutters strongly disagree with him.

This post by John Pollard gives a good overview of why some people get confused this way.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017[/URL]

Wink

I know the term "wholesaler" is used too liberally and applied incorrectly. I'm dealing with a true wholesaler, and yes, he has an agenda as do all sellers.

Thank you for the additional reading - I'm always looking to get more educated.

 

[denverappraiser]

Protect yourself from what exactly?

I assume the issue is you’re worried about buying a stone called one thing that later, after your recourse has expired, might be called something else. There is no way to 100% solve this. A GIA graded stone that’s resubmitted again to the lab at a later date can get different results. The rules can and do change over time. Before 2006 the cut grade didn’t exist at all for example. The color grading rules and the standard lighting environment is another. It’s changed considerably. The standard of what makes a ‘G’ now is not the same as it was 30 years ago. That’s not to say it’s looser or harsher by the way. It’s different.

If the objective is to minimize that risk, the first step is to decide what your standards will be. Assuming it’s that you’re looking for a stone that GIA will likely call xyz, get a stone that’s already GIA graded the way you want. Again, that doesn’t reduce the ‘risk’ to zero, but it minimizes it.

The customary reason people want to use AGS is because of their cut grading system. They do it differently from GIA. Many, most even, count the AGS system as more scientifically sound. The risk is the same here. If you want a stone that AGS is likely to call Ideal at some date in the future, the best way to maximize that is to find one that they call Ideal now.

 

[denverappraiser]

I know the term "wholesaler" is used too liberally and applied incorrectly. I'm dealing with a true wholesaler, and yes, he has an agenda as do all sellers.

Just out of curiosity, we're talking about someone who is selling a single diamond directly to and end consumer (you), right? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but isn't that the definition of retail?

 

[Karl_K]

If you really want to be sure have the seller submit it to GIA with preconditions that it need to come back same color and clarity or you get a refund or price adjustment.

That would be making a huge assumption that GIA is always consistent to a standard and always right.
That is not always the case.
I have it on very good authority that people are lab shopping among the different GIA labs looking for the best paper.
They have a consistency problem among the different labs and there always has been some at the same lab.

In the end diamond grading is an opinion and not fact and in the fine print all labs disclaim any liability for the opinion being wrong.
Sad but true.

When AGS shifts standards which they do from time to time to try and keep aligned with GIA it is big news when GIA shifts standards it is shrugged off.
T^he si2/i1 border shift is one example, there is another right now on some feathers in some locations getting GIA vs2 and AGS si1. It will be interesting to see if they shift again to align with changed GIA standards.
It will be talked about when it does happen as being AGS's fault.

 

[permafrost]

I know the term "wholesaler" is used too liberally and applied incorrectly. I'm dealing with a true wholesaler, and yes, he has an agenda as do all sellers.

Just out of curiosity, we're talking about someone who is selling a single diamond directly to and end consumer (you), right? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but isn't that the definition of retail?

His normal course of business is solely dealer to dealer. My transaction is an exception. So, you can call it "retail", if that helps, as I'm not getting the Polygon/Rapnet price on this stone.

I would still classify him as a true wholesaler. And I don't classify "wholesale to public" as wholesalers.


btw, the appraiser I'm using only has a CZ "master set" for color.. should I be concerned? or what is your opinion on using CZ for color grading comparisons?

 

[denverappraiser]

Call him what you wish. I only chimed in because, as you point out, the word ‘wholesaler’ gets abused rather badly in the diamond business and modifying it to ‘true wholesaler’ don’t actually change a thing. You brought it up. Evaluate each deal on it’s own merits, not how the seller describes themselves or even who their other customers are. Your deal is your deal.

No, I don’t find CZ color masters to be particularly reliable.

That said, maybe I missed something here. Aren’t you using a lab for your grading anyway, and the point of this discussion has to do with deciding on WHICH lab you wanted to rely on? Have you not shown the lab papers to the appraiser? Are they disputing the color grade?

 

[permafrost]

Call him what you wish. I only chimed in because, as you point out, the word ‘wholesaler’ gets abused rather badly in the diamond business and modifying it to ‘true wholesaler’ don’t actually change a thing. You brought it up. Evaluate each deal on it’s own merits, not how the seller describes themselves or even who their other customers are. Your deal is your deal.

No, I don’t find CZ color masters to be particularly reliable.

That said, maybe I missed something here. Aren’t you using a lab for your grading anyway, and the point of this discussion has to do with deciding on WHICH lab you wanted to rely on? Have you not shown the lab papers to the appraiser? Are they disputing the color grade?

I'm choosing a stone from a selection.. half of them are AGS , half are GIA. I will be making the choice at an appraiser's office - which was chosen to provide a neutral site - not really for their appraisal work.

My concern is if we choose an AGS stone, the color might not grade the same by GIA and that it might be lower.

So, outside of submitting an AGS stone to GIA, I was hoping the appraiser could provide input on the color - or that they would have a GIA graded master set that could be used for comparison purposes. However, I've just found out that this appraiser has a CZ master set.

 

[denverappraiser]

I would not recommend relying on CZ masters to decide if a lab grade is correct.

Given that you will have several similar stones present, it’s fairly straightforward to use them against each other to get a feel for which show more color than which. That is to say, if you’ve got a GIA graded stone present that you count as correct, you can use THAT as a master for comparing to others that you’re considering to see which is lighter or darker. Presumably the color range in your grouping is fairly tight (one or two grades. You're not trying to compare an F to a K). It’s likely that your seller and/or your appraiser have experience at this and may be able to help.

 

[Rockdiamond]

perma- there's a few aspects to what you've been told than make me go hmmmmmm

1) The part about "grade shopping": If we're talking about sending a stone to an EGL after the cutter did not like the grade, yes, it happens frequently. But AGSL is NOT known for softer color grading, and in fact, cutters that use AGSL are quite limited in scope, and in every case I know the cutters are very "cut focused". IN other words, they cut specifically to achieve the AGSL 0 cut grade. This is the main reason to use AGSL


2) the part about meeting in an appraisers office. Is this a wholesale seller without an office?

Bottom line is that many people have questions in the vein of yours- about how not to get ripped off.....a few of the things you wrote are alarming.

I find that using your innate knowledge of human nature and assessing who is selling you the diamond, and how they are selling to to you makes a lot more sense than tying to become a diamond expert- or even trusting a third party ( the appraiser)

 

[permafrost]

perma- there's a few aspects to what you've been told than make me go hmmmmmm

1) The part about "grade shopping": If we're talking about sending a stone to an EGL after the cutter did not like the grade, yes, it happens frequently. But AGSL is NOT known for softer color grading, and in fact, cutters that use AGSL are quite limited in scope, and in every case I know the cutters are very "cut focused". IN other words, they cut specifically to achieve the AGSL 0 cut grade. This is the main reason to use AGSL


2) the part about meeting in an appraisers office. Is this a wholesale seller without an office?

Bottom line is that many people have questions in the vein of yours- about how not to get ripped off.....a few of the things you wrote are alarming.

I find that using your innate knowledge of human nature and assessing who is selling you the diamond, and how they are selling to to you makes a lot more sense than tying to become a diamond expert- or even trusting a third party ( the appraiser)

To provide more clarity on my diamond selection process.

I have 3 vendors supplying a selection of GIA/AGS diamonds. One vendor is a preferred vendor on this site, one is a local seller, and the final vendor is the wholesaler.

The wholesaler is out of state, been in the business for many years and has probably sold to trade people on here - he has certainly sold the "preferred vendor" an AGS stone. My local seller has vouched for him and has also received the wholesaler's stone. I haven't sent him any money. If I don't select his stone, I'm out $40 to have it shipped back to him.

The appraiser is really just supplying a neutral site for the selection process (to satisfy the sellers) and I was not planning on seeking the appraiser's input. Furthermore, given that they don't have a real GIA master set of stones, I may need to change appraisers for the selection process.

 

[denverappraiser]

David,
Using an appraiser’s office as a surrogate showroom is actually fairly common although I definitely count it as an appraisal service when I do it. Maybe it’s just semantics. I don’t’ rent space. I don’t rent or lend out use of my tools, like my microscope, my scale or even my lights, much less my master stones. I also don’t give ‘free’ opinions on grading for color or anything else. This whole deal absolutely would fall under my appraisal practice. That said, I do something like it regularly. Others do things differently and I make no claim that my way is right. If the appraiser wants to rent out time at his/her desk, or give it away free for that matter, that’s their call.

Permafrost,
I wouldn’t make use of the CZ masters but the fact that he/she is offering them to you doesn’t seem like really a mark against them and it doesn't affect your stated objectives in using their office anyway. As mentioned above, I won't even do that. It may be more difficult than you're thinking to find an appraiser who can and will do what you want.

 

[permafrost]

David,
Using an appraiser’s office as a surrogate showroom is actually fairly common although I definitely count it as an appraisal service when I do it. Maybe it’s just semantics. I don’t’ rent space. I don’t rent or lend out use of my tools, like my microscope, my scale or even my lights, much less my master stones. I also don’t give ‘free’ opinions on grading for color or anything else. This whole deal absolutely would fall under my appraisal practice. I do something like it on at least a weekly basis. That said, others do things differently and I make no claim that my way is right. If the appraiser wants to rent out time at his/her desk, or give it away free for that matter, that’s their call.

Permafrost,
I wouldn’t make use of the CZ masters but the fact that he/she is offering them to you doesn’t seem like really a mark against them. As mentioned above, I won't even do that.

To clarify, it's not free. The idea was that we would do the selection at the appraiser's office and then once we select a diamond/ have it set, we would have them appraise the final product.

if you don't mind sharing, what do you charge or what would be a reasonable rate for a "surrogate showroom" + appraiser's input on the color grade of 1-2 stones.


I contacted another appraiser who has a GIA master stone set..and ran the proposition by them.. but their quote was a little higher than I would prefer to pay to get more comfort around color grading.

 

[denverappraiser]

I won't quote someone else's prices and it's a forum violation for me to talk about my own but I'm confident you would find me to be expensive. I have the best equipped lab in the state, the best credentials, the most experience, and a strong national reputation as well as a carefully designed secure environment and I carry insurance for this purpose. These things did not just happen. I do not aspire to be the cheapest.

I charge by the hour for this sort of thing and I would charge you a minimum to even begin.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks Neil- that's interesting.
Not that my experience is a "rule" but we've never had a request to meet a client in an appraisers office, although surely people have taken our items to appraisers subsequent a visit.
I would suspect that using an appraiser's office to view stones would be more common outside an area where a seller has their own office.
Perma's situation might demand it as he is dealing with someone who can't actually show the stones in their own office due to location.

Perma, just out of curiosity, is it a round diamond you're looking at?

 

[denverappraiser]

Unless the seller is a private party, they would not normally be present. The stones come in by FedEx or equivalent or they get hand carried in the client.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It makes a lot of sense Neil.
One request we have gotten from buyers outside our local area is to send the item to a jewelry store so they can inspect it.
When I ask how much they want to pay the store owner for his or her time, and remind them they have a money back guarantee it usually ends that part of the discussion.
But as you've described it, using an appraiser for such a service makes sense if the buyer can't visit the seller.

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

If you really want to be sure have the seller submit it to GIA with preconditions that it need to come back same color and clarity or you get a refund or price adjustment.

I have it on very good authority that people are lab shopping among the different GIA labs looking for the best paper.

That is nothing new, it was speculated widely a few years ago that GIA Carlsbad used a Colorimeter for their color grading in conjunction with graders and that they were known to be one grade less harsh in the G H I range than GIA New York.

Rumours are rumours and are usually anecdotal and not statistically significant.
It also used to be that if you submitted the same stone twice to GIA they would not change the grade, they would use the inscription or inclusion plot, pull up the old report and reprint it.

But this line of discussion is a built upon hypothetical constructs and immaterial. When you are buying a stone with a GIA paper you don't care what GIA would grade it 10 years from now, you have a GIA paper from today and that is what sets the value today.

This whole thread is much ado about nothing in my opinion. I don't think AGSL is softer than GIA in color grading not in a systematic and deliberate way, its quite the opposite, they strive to mimic GIA grading in most areas except for cut grading.

I asked about LP grading because I could possibly see a red flag if a stone didn't get an LP grade but was still sold with AGSL paper but that is not the case here.