AGS J vs GIA J

[bliss_cathy]

Hello,

I asked this question a couple weeks ago and didn't get a response. Hoping to get a response this time

I am looking to purchase a pair of 0.8 tcw earrings, so 0.4 carat on each ear.

I have tried on a pair of GIA J earrings at Tiffany and found the colour sufficient and the size okay. Tiffany has said that when they grade a colour the colour is at the top of the spectrum for that grade. Ie a high J or I etc.

I am looking to purchase online and my searches have narrowed me down to WF ACA Js.

My concerns:

I own a GIA H, and I also own two AGS BGD Hearts and Arrows Gs. To me, the AGS Gs have more of a tint then the GIA H.

I'm worried the AGS Js will be a lot more tinted than the Js I tried on at Tiffany.

I personally feel that AGS stones seem to be softer in colour. For simplicity buying online, I feel safer with HnA or ACA (BGD or WF) which are all AGS. The few GIA HnA i have seen seem to cost more. I am just concerned about the softer colour grading for AGS. I think I would prefer GIA, but as said its harder to get a branded HnA stone online it seems.

Does anyone else notice a colour difference between AGS and GIA, I know I am colour sensitive.

Thanks in advance

 

[LaraOnline]

Well this is going to be an interesting thread, I'm excited!
I cannot help you though as although I have one GIA and one AGS, I have never compared the AGS to GIA grading stones or indeed any other GIA stones of the same grade, so...

 

[JulieN]

I would skip the H&A branded cuts and get a GIA/AGS I color to be safe. Small movements like one color grade usually don't cost very much in this size.

 

[bliss_cathy]

I would skip the H&A branded cuts and get a GIA/AGS I color to be safe. Small movements like one color grade usually don't cost very much in this size.

Thanks JulieN

I think if I went non branded I would definitely prefer GIA.

So an expert selection GIA I over an AGS ACA branded J?

 

[bliss_cathy]

Well this is going to be an interesting thread, I'm excited!
I cannot help you though as although I have one GIA and one AGS, I have never compared the AGS to GIA grading stones or indeed any other GIA stones of the same grade, so...

Haha, well the first time I tried to start it no one replied!!!

In my own AGS G and GIA H, I feel I can actually see a slight tint in the AGS G. It looks warmer, not as white...and the H is significantly bigger than the G, so the G being smaller with smaller facets, you'd expect it to look whiter and more splintery, but it doesn't.

It's okay for me as my H isn't outshone by the Gs, but it did surprise me.

I know I am very colour sensitive. Even when looking at Hearts on Fire stones I could tell the higher and lower colours when the rep showed me blind, and at Tiffany, when they showed me different colours blind I could also tell. It's not that I see tint in these shops, I just can tell a difference, sort of like the stone is a bit darker in the lower colours - and before people mention cut, it was the same with the Hearts on Fire stones!

 

[LaraOnline]

I would be careful about extrapolating about a whole lab based on your perception, I'm interested in hearing other peoples' experiences.
The reason I am being cautious is that my AGS G seems, to my eyes, to give my GIA F a definite run for its money!
So, if you are colour sensitive, maybe it would be wise to take Julie's advice lol.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Hello,

I asked this question a couple weeks ago and didn't get a response. Hoping to get a response this time

I am looking to purchase a pair of 0.8 tcw earrings, so 0.4 carat on each ear.

I have tried on a pair of GIA J earrings at Tiffany and found the colour sufficient and the size okay. Tiffany has said that when they grade a colour the colour is at the top of the spectrum for that grade. Ie a high J or I etc.

I am looking to purchase online and my searches have narrowed me down to WF ACA Js.

My concerns:

I own a GIA H, and I also own two AGS BGD Hearts and Arrows Gs. To me, the AGS Gs have more of a tint then the GIA H.

I'm worried the AGS Js will be a lot more tinted than the Js I tried on at Tiffany.

I personally feel that AGS stones seem to be softer in colour. For simplicity buying online, I feel safer with HnA or ACA (BGD or WF) which are all AGS. The few GIA HnA i have seen seem to cost more. I am just concerned about the softer colour grading for AGS. I think I would prefer GIA, but as said its harder to get a branded HnA stone online it seems.

Does anyone else notice a colour difference between AGS and GIA, I know I am colour sensitive.

Thanks in advance

Hi,

To start, I found the Tiffany-quote very funny. With them producing more and more of their needs in house, I wonder what happens to their production that they find a medium to low I-colour. Them saying that they only have high I's simply makes no sense. Probably a salesperson going haywire, because the nonsense helped him or her close a few extra sales in the past.

I have recently sent two AGS-graded H-colours to GIA. One of them came back I from GIA, the other G from GIA. Another recent experience is us re-cutting a GIA-graded G, then submitting it to GIA. It came back graded F.

Professionals will generally not buy diamonds based upon the lab-grade only, unless they buy a batch of preferably over a hundred stones, where the negative lab-mistake is compensated by the positive lab-mistake. Otherwise, a professional will always confirm that he is in agreement with the lab-grade before purchasing.

Live long,

 

[leyhuong]

I own a pair of J diamond stud 1.61 ctw. They are GIA certified and honestly, they are gorgeous and super white. From my experience, the color is only noticeable if you buy large stone like 2ct and above.

 

[bliss_cathy]

If a J colour I buy online is similar to what I tried on at Tiff and Co, I would be fine with the colour. They do market in their brochures if the colour is borderline they will grade it the lower colour. I'm not trying to advocate Tiffany and Co, I just wanted some advice as the Js I tried on were in Tiff and Co. and a colour I was okay with.

I probably would be fine with another GIA J but my concern is that if I buy an AGS J it will be more tinted than a GIA J.

I know I only have a sample of 3, but I can see that AGS appears more tinted in a higher coloured stone.

To be honest this is how I currently feel....if I were to buy AGS online is that I would need to buy one or two grades higher than the GIA colour based on my own experience.

I was hoping to get some people's experiences of saying not to worry or to get a grade or two higher if I go with an AGS stone....

 

[heididdl]

I think the comment by Paul ,who is in the trade is spot on.

In my HO GIA is the industry standard. However that being said, my boss sent one stone to GIA four times until he got the grading that he wanted for the stone he was selling.

There are actually people grading the stones so whether it is GIA or AGS it depends on the stone and the human that is grading it. If you are color sensitive then you have to decide if you can handle the J stones that you have in front of you and not what any lab has graded it as .

 

[jill_s]

I don't have experience with AGS and GIA J color, but I do with K color. I had a GIA K ering stone (ex cut) and AGS K studs (BGD signature), and the AGS stones showed much more tint to my eyes. I eventually upgraded/sold all those K diamonds, because I realized J was my cut-off for color. My ering stone is a J, so I don't mind warmer colors, but the AGS Ks were too much tint for me to be happy. I ended up selling them to upgrade to some GIA J with Med & Strong Blue Fluoresence (sp?) which appear much whiter to my eyes. In fact, I love it because I feel like they face up as an I or even an H.

 

[TitanCi]

I don't know if my eye's experiences are much help, but I've seen GIA H's side by side with AGS H's and I could see a VERY slight noticable, warmth to the AGS stone. VERY SLIGHT. However, everything is very subjective and the H was still white and colorless anyway.


HTH.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

My own limited experience is that AGS is a little softer in color than GIA (and that has been reported here before). The first Hearts and arrows stone I bought was graded GIA H (high) and when I decided to sell it to upgrade, we got a new report from AGS and they graded it G, which was very good for me! On another occasion, a stone was being potentially cut for me, and it was a GIA high H, and after the recut, it was sent to AGS and got a G. I ended up buying a larger stone than that one, but that would have been a happy situation, too. There have been several examples on the forum where people bought diamonds and went to appraisers and the appraisers graded the AGS stones a grade lower. I think this happens when a GIA stone is on the high color end, it may get one higher grade from AGS. Or a low AGS color may get one grade lower by GIA. I imagine there is a wide range that would be graded the same. But as Paul has already said, you can submit the same stone to the same lab twice and get a different color grade, but that would just tell me the color of the stone was probably borderline, and I'd certainly want to pay for the lower color and not the higher!

I can easily see tint in AGS J, so my limit is AGS I color for a round brilliant.

I had no idea Tiffany sold J color earrings. My understanding is that I color was the lowest they sold in engagement rings, so I would have thought that would have applied to other jewelry as well.

 

[bliss_cathy]

My own limited experience is that AGS is a little softer in color than GIA (and that has been reported here before). The first Hearts and arrows stone I bought was graded GIA H (high) and when I decided to sell it to upgrade, we got a new report from AGS and they graded it G, which was very good for me! On another occasion, a stone was being potentially cut for me, and it was a GIA high H, and after the recut, it was sent to AGS and got a G. I ended up buying a larger stone than that one, but that would have been a happy situation, too. There have been several examples on the forum where people bought diamonds and went to appraisers and the appraisers graded the AGS stones a grade lower. I think this happens when a GIA stone is on the high color end, it may get one higher grade from AGS. Or a low AGS color may get one grade lower by GIA. I imagine there is a wide range that would be graded the same. But as Paul has already said, you can submit the same stone to the same lab twice and get a different color grade, but that would just tell me the color of the stone was probably borderline, and I'd certainly want to pay for the lower color and not the higher!

I can easily see tint in AGS J, so my limit is AGS I color for a round brilliant.

I had no idea Tiffany sold J color earrings. My understanding is that I color was the lowest they sold in engagement rings, so I would have thought that would have applied to other jewelry as well.

Thank you for your detailed response. I think my hunch was right, if I do get AGS to go a colour grade higher.

Yes, I know re J and Tiff! I was also very surprised as well. I was in the store about 3 weeks ago so it was recently that I tried on the J earrings. As you mentioned, the engagement rings only go to I, and when my husband and I looked at e rings a few years ago, I remember this distinctly.

They were in a platinum setting (so in the part of the store that sells the engagement rings too ie not the sterling silver side). I was quite excited to try on J earrings, as they are possibly the first Js I've seen in real life. The sales clerk thought I was quite funny that I was so excited to see J earrings at Tiffany. She said the earrings did go to J...

 

[bliss_cathy]

I don't know if my eye's experiences are much help, but I've seen GIA H's side by side with AGS H's and I could see a VERY slight noticable, warmth to the AGS stone. VERY SLIGHT. However, everything is very subjective and the H was still white and colorless anyway.


HTH.

Thanks, I'm glad other people do notice the slight warmth too

 

[bliss_cathy]

I don't have experience with AGS and GIA J color, but I do with K color. I had a GIA K ering stone (ex cut) and AGS K studs (BGD signature), and the AGS stones showed much more tint to my eyes. I eventually upgraded/sold all those K diamonds, because I realized J was my cut-off for color. My ering stone is a J, so I don't mind warmer colors, but the AGS Ks were too much tint for me to be happy. I ended up selling them to upgrade to some GIA J with Med & Strong Blue Fluoresence (sp?) which appear much whiter to my eyes. In fact, I love it because I feel like they face up as an I or even an H.

This helped thanks, as J is towards a colour end I'm not as familiar with, I wonder if the tolerances would become harsher, ie any more noticeable tint in the AGS Js being even more noticeable, as how you found with the Ks.

If they were GIA and AGS Gs I probably wouldn't pose this question and it would be a matter of preference, but as I know J is in a colour area I am less familiar with, any nuances in colours between labs I think I would pick up even more...

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Forgive me, but ...

(the regulars of this forum know from experience in the past 10 years that when I start a post in this way, I have something very important to get off my chest)

So, forgive me but this is a thread exemplary of what is frustrating about bringing knowledge to this forum, as a professional.

So, here I am, judging hundreds of diamonds for purchase on a weekly basis, with 25 years of dedicated experience in diamonds (60 if you add my colleague, making that same judgment together with me), which gives me the impression that I know a little bit about the reliability of lab-grading.

On that basis, I say that there is no use in making general statements about lab-grading. Mind you, as a professional, I never make any colour-assessments except under my own lamp, in my own office and with my own loupe. I know, from experience, that I can easily be off one colour if not under these same conditions, and sometimes, in the late afternoon, I ask to re-check the same stones the next morning, as I feel that my ability to assess colour is affected by fatigue.

In this same thread however, a few consumers give their honest personal opinion about a few stones that they have compared. It is extremely frustrating to see my expert-opinion eventually discarded, on the basis of three or four amateur-opinions (Forgive me, no disrespect intended).

I feel like the doctor who has just diagnosed a patient with cancer, to then have a few friends convince the patient that some herbal tea has done miracles for them, experiencing similar symptoms.

I apologize again, but I just needed to vent my frustration and add my 2 cents.

Live long,

 

[LaraOnline]

Forgive me, but ...

I feel like the doctor who has just diagnosed a patient with cancer, to then have a few friends convince the patient that some herbal tea has done miracles for them, experiencing similar symptoms.

I apologize again, but I just needed to vent my frustration and add my 2 cents.

Live long,

LOL I feel bad for you Paul; my husband is a professional, and we run a business together (although in a different environment).
He comes home wearing a peevish expression four nights out of seven heheh
FWIW I found your earlier post very helpful and insightful.
It was worth posting!!! Your lesson stands!
Even if, in the moment, excited consumers have 'other things' to get off their chests.

 

[oldminer]

GIA sets the standard currently for color grading. They are not perfect and do make changes on some reports upon appeal. Very few dealers ever want a lower grade, but higher re-grading is always welcomed....It is a profitable thing to get a better grade when it can be justified. The borderline between grades remains subjective.

AGS is a far smaller operation with commendable standards, but they would be out of business if they tried to grade more harshly than GIA. They likely seek to grade just like GIA, but from time to time grade a bit less harshly in their attempt to be reasonable and not overly harsh on a color grade. It makes good sense to do business in this way and it is an honest way to explain what may be taking place. I know of no major lab which totally matches the performance of GIA, certainly not any in the USA. However, the list of those labs which seek to give grades equivalent to GIA is outnumbered by labs that don't mind being quite liberal with how they use the GIA system. We have discussed this many times before and those frequent participants here know all about this practice.

The Tiffany & Co situation is as follows: The were once a major customer of GIA. I am given to understand they had many instances where they did not agree with GIA color grading, both on the high and on the low side. Because Tiffany values its fine reputation more than most, they would ask for re-grading on higher and lower graded diamonds. This is not the common approach, but it fits Tiffany's brand. Remember, Tiffany is able to charge premium prices and the last thing they need is an unhappy client who spent money in their store to be unhappy about something so easy as a color grade discrepancy. They like their diamonds graded 100% right, not skewed higher by a re-grading appeal. They do try very hard to sell based on the conservative borderline G to them is F/G GIA, H is G/H GIA. Consider their nominal cost to do this. It does cost more to offer this security to customers, but the customer 100% pays for this added degree of security in the color grade. I find nothing "wrong" with this concept in terms of Brand protection and consumer service. This is something not many retailers could or would try to do in the highly competitive diamond business, but Tiffany stands pretty much alone in how they have decided to act. I don't think they should be held up for ridicule or misunderstood by consumers reading Pricescope. Most of their customers likely do not come to Pricescope for buying advice, but simply put their trust in Tiffany and spend the necessary amount to have their peace of mind... It is not everyone's choice, but for a limited number of consumers it is their choice and we ought to both understand and respect it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Paul, I certainly think your opinion as a professional, and Dave's as well, are more valuable than ours. I pointed out that my experience was limited. But in all the color discrepancy cases I have seen on the forum, AGS stones were either graded the same or softer than GIA. I know of two people off the top of my head that traded in stones and vendors had the stone regraded by AGS and they got a higher color aside from the two times it happened in my own experience. I don't know how often you are getting double grading on your diamonds, but the few times I am seeing it here and in my own experience, the GIA grading was one grade lower than the AGS.

I am sure Dave recalls when a member here bought a H&A 3ct I color stone that was estimated to be up to 2 color grades lower than the AGS report by one independent appraiser, and the stone was then sent to Dave for a second opinion. He graded it a solid J. I just can recall this happening several times, and it really isn't very common for people to get AGS diamonds independently appraised when bought from a reliable vendor, so these occasions are memorable to me.

I do mainly think this is more of a concern when stones are borderline in color.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Okay, lab discrepancy theories aside, when I was looking for my last diamond, here is a side view I took. See the two stones on the left? One was graded I (possibly GIA) and the other is definitely AGS J. Can you see more color in one than the other? I could, and I could see it in the face up view as well. That is why I personally prefer I or higher in AGS stones. But again, that is just MY own personal preference.

 

[denverappraiser]

I personally feel that AGS stones seem to be softer in colour.

If you don't trust AGSL, don't rely on them. It's as simple as that. The onus is on them to convince you that their opinions have merit and if they haven't done that then you should rely on someone else who has. There are plenty of jewelers, including online jewelers, who sell GIA stones where they claim H&A. I think the jamesallen 'true hearts' line is mostly GIA for example.

 

[bliss_cathy]

Okay, lab discrepancy theories aside, when I was looking for my last diamond, here is a side view I took. See the two stones on the left? One was graded I (possibly GIA) and the other is definitely AGS J. Can you see more color in one than the other? I could, and I could see it in the face up view as well. That is why I personally prefer I or higher in AGS stones. But again, that is just MY own personal preference.

Thanks for posting this. That is what I see (thought to a lesser degree) when I compare my GIA H to the AGS G. I have no idea if I have a high H or not, but the G is definitely more tinted.

 

[bliss_cathy]

GIA sets the standard currently for color grading. They are not perfect and do make changes on some reports upon appeal. Very few dealers ever want a lower grade, but higher re-grading is always welcomed....It is a profitable thing to get a better grade when it can be justified. The borderline between grades remains subjective.

AGS is a far smaller operation with commendable standards, but they would be out of business if they tried to grade more harshly than GIA. They likely seek to grade just like GIA, but from time to time grade a bit less harshly in their attempt to be reasonable and not overly harsh on a color grade. It makes good sense to do business in this way and it is an honest way to explain what may be taking place. I know of no major lab which totally matches the performance of GIA, certainly not any in the USA. However, the list of those labs which seek to give grades equivalent to GIA is outnumbered by labs that don't mind being quite liberal with how they use the GIA system. We have discussed this many times before and those frequent participants here know all about this practice.

The Tiffany & Co situation is as follows: The were once a major customer of GIA. I am given to understand they had many instances where they did not agree with GIA color grading, both on the high and on the low side. Because Tiffany values its fine reputation more than most, they would ask for re-grading on higher and lower graded diamonds. This is not the common approach, but it fits Tiffany's brand. Remember, Tiffany is able to charge premium prices and the last thing they need is an unhappy client who spent money in their store to be unhappy about something so easy as a color grade discrepancy. They like their diamonds graded 100% right, not skewed higher by a re-grading appeal. They do try very hard to sell based on the conservative borderline G to them is F/G GIA, H is G/H GIA. Consider their nominal cost to do this. It does cost more to offer this security to customers, but the customer 100% pays for this added degree of security in the color grade. I find nothing "wrong" with this concept in terms of Brand protection and consumer service. This is something not many retailers could or would try to do in the highly competitive diamond business, but Tiffany stands pretty much alone in how they have decided to act. I don't think they should be held up for ridicule or misunderstood by consumers reading Pricescope. Most of their customers likely do not come to Pricescope for buying advice, but simply put their trust in Tiffany and spend the necessary amount to have their peace of mind... It is not everyone's choice, but for a limited number of consumers it is their choice and we ought to both understand and respect it.

Thank you very much for this detailed response, I really appreciate the time you took to write this.

I just have one question about dealers (it was a point Paul Antwerp touched on earlier in the thread as well) when they are buying in large quantities are the diamonds not certified? Do the diamonds only get certified by GIA or AGS in the process when the dealer is selling to the consumer? So do AGS and GIA only exist for consumer standards??

Thank you

 

[bliss_cathy]

I personally feel that AGS stones seem to be softer in colour.

If you don't trust AGSL, don't rely on them. It's as simple as that. The onus is on them to convince you that their opinions have merit and if they haven't done that then you should rely on someone else who has. There are plenty of jewelers, including online jewelers, who sell GIA stones where they claim H&A. I think the jamesallen 'true hearts' line is mostly GIA for example.

Haha, yes, it seems my experience is that I am more wary of the colour grading of AGS. You're right there are GIA HnA, the simplicity of searching for a WF or BGD signature stone and the consistent cut standard they have was simply why I was at this point!

 

[bliss_cathy]

Forgive me, but ...

(the regulars of this forum know from experience in the past 10 years that when I start a post in this way, I have something very important to get off my chest)

So, forgive me but this is a thread exemplary of what is frustrating about bringing knowledge to this forum, as a professional.

So, here I am, judging hundreds of diamonds for purchase on a weekly basis, with 25 years of dedicated experience in diamonds (60 if you add my colleague, making that same judgment together with me), which gives me the impression that I know a little bit about the reliability of lab-grading.

On that basis, I say that there is no use in making general statements about lab-grading. Mind you, as a professional, I never make any colour-assessments except under my own lamp, in my own office and with my own loupe. I know, from experience, that I can easily be off one colour if not under these same conditions, and sometimes, in the late afternoon, I ask to re-check the same stones the next morning, as I feel that my ability to assess colour is affected by fatigue.

In this same thread however, a few consumers give their honest personal opinion about a few stones that they have compared. It is extremely frustrating to see my expert-opinion eventually discarded, on the basis of three or four amateur-opinions (Forgive me, no disrespect intended).

I feel like the doctor who has just diagnosed a patient with cancer, to then have a few friends convince the patient that some herbal tea has done miracles for them, experiencing similar symptoms.

I apologize again, but I just needed to vent my frustration and add my 2 cents.

Live long,

I'm sorry my thread frustrates you. i didn't mean to discard your post and it was certainly not a reflection of your expert opinion. I'm sorry you felt that way. Remember I had an experience already with AGS so maybe was seeking people who would also understand and had similar experiences. With regards to your cancer analogy, I see its more like you're a Dr who is treating someone for cancer, and you have your preference with which chemotherapy agent to attack the cancer with based on studies you know to treat hundreds of patients. We are patients who are being treated with chemotherapy and get the side effects from the drugs and compare the clinical differences amongst us. We may notice that someone's skin is more dry, or someone's hair falls out faster on this agent, vs a friend who is on a different therapy and doesn't get hair loss and fatigue. It may be more subtle, but as consumers or patients its these nuances and the ability to relate to each other that helps us through decisions.

So even though they may be amateur opinions, they are still valuable based on their own personal experiences.

 

[denverappraiser]

WF and BGD are both great companies, don't get me wrong. But if they're asking to rely on a grader that you're uncomfortable with, that's a reason to move on.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, I will say that I have bought multiple pairs of diamonds for earrings from WhiteFlash and I LOVE their diamonds. They are so easy to match since the cut is so similar in their in-house stones, and they have a great upgrade policy. However, all my studs have been G or H color, but I would also go to I color for studs if I wanted to go larger than I currently have. I just don't go to J and that solves the problem!

 

[LaraOnline]

Okay, lab discrepancy theories aside, when I was looking for my last diamond, here is a side view I took. See the two stones on the left? One was graded I (possibly GIA) and the other is definitely AGS J. Can you see more color in one than the other? I could, and I could see it in the face up view as well. That is why I personally prefer I or higher in AGS stones. But again, that is just MY own personal preference.

Thanks for posting this. That is what I see (thought to a lesser degree) when I compare my GIA H to the AGS G. I have no idea if I have a high H or not, but the G is definitely more tinted.

and then there's my experience, where to my eye, my AGS G colour looks better than my half-the-size GIA F colour.

 

[bliss_cathy]

Interesting!

I just did a search in WF to see if I could find any GIA J stones... Anyhow...in my search I found:

An I SI1 A Cut Above 0.40 carat AGS certified is $869 wire price.

Vs

A J SI1 Virtual Selection 0.40 carat GIA certified is $1064 wire price. The virtual selection is also only VG polish and VG symmetry.

It kind of goes along with my thoughts thinking that a GIA HnA would be more expensive, however I was surprised to see this price difference!