AGS, GIA vs EGL and AGA

[esp102]

Hello,

I''m going to be in the market for a diamond and have noticed during the last 5 years a shortage in ideal cut diamonds 1.70 to 1.99 carats.

I have also noticed that EGL are less expensive.

Because of the lack of inventory, I would like to open my search to EGL too.

I would like a 1.80+ Ideal cut diamond G color, clean SI1 - now if I can find a stone with an EGL cert - why can''t I take it to David Atlas and have him review it before I buy the diamond. I live in Philly.

Everybody is telling me not to buy a EGL stone because they don''t hold to strict grading rules but David does...

I''ve sent a few of my friends to David prior to them buying a stone because they were buying them from the internet. Just to make sure the cert matched the diamond (but they were all GIA).

Any comments?

 

[kenny]

You say EGL is les expensive.
Is it really?

What if you sent the same stone to EGL and GIA.
Say EGL gave it G VS2
Say GIA gave it H SI1

Then what?
They may even sell for a similar price,

So while your perception is that EGL is less expensive it is simply graded more forgivingly, so it SEEMS like a better stone for the price.
I haven't done a study, but I'd guess you get what you pay for regardless of the lab that wrote the GIA or EGL paper.

 

[littlelysser]

I''m kind of the opinion that there are good EGL stones out there. But I''d make sure that you get it from a jeweler that you trust and have it appraised to make sure it is what it says it is.

And it is my understanding that EGL tends to be soft on color, not so much clarity...

 

[oldminer]

In our joint published study of diamonds and lab grading we found that an excellent value can be had with an EGL diamond from time to time. The actual grade and the grade on the report may vary, but usually the price reflects the actual grade anyway. There are Ideally cut EGL diamonds, but you need to sort through many that are not.

We can do that sort of work very rapidly either with ImaGem or by parametric screening using a Sarin. Many labs have Sarin or Ogi devices and they, too, can do parametric screening readily. It really is not a question of the "lab", but of the actual diamond. I know lab reports make the quest easier and more organized, but the best deals are always more elusive and difficult. It all depends on your dedication to making a sharper deal or teking the difficult route.......Its up to you.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 4/6/2006 7:07:50 PM
Author:esp102
Hello,

I''m going to be in the market for a diamond and have noticed during the last 5 years a shortage in ideal cut diamonds 1.70 to 1.99 carats.

I have also noticed that EGL are less expensive.

Because of the lack of inventory, I would like to open my search to EGL too.

I would like a 1.80+ Ideal cut diamond G color, clean SI1 - now if I can find a stone with an EGL cert - why can''t I take it to David Atlas and have him review it before I buy the diamond. I live in Philly.

Everybody is telling me not to buy a EGL stone because they don''t hold to strict grading rules but David does...

I''ve sent a few of my friends to David prior to them buying a stone because they were buying them from the internet. Just to make sure the cert matched the diamond (but they were all GIA).

Any comments?

I would look at a diamond, if I were you, on a "case by case" basis regardless of the lab report. I''m not seeing the high rate of consistency among the labs of late. I wouldn''t rule any labs "out" or "in." I would recommend getting another opinion from an independent appraiser of your choice. We don''t always agree with lab reports but we can point out strengths and weaknesses to help you make an educated decision. Good luck with your search!

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[esp102]

kenny - my point is that if I find an ideal cut EGL diamond that''s rated a G color, SI-1... and if I bring the stone to David Atlas for his review and he shows me it''s really a G color, SI-1 - the diamond will be cheaper than a GIA or AGS, G, SI-1.

EGL can''t be grading all of their reports wrong.

When I sat down with David Atlas 6 years ago, he showed a diamond against his master stones and I even could tell the diamond was a F color. It wasn''t an E color and it wasn''t a G color - so it was an F.

With the Sarin report I can determin if the EGL diamond falls in the AGA-A1 or A2 or AGS-0 range.

Now, if David tells me "This EGL diamond that''s a G would be graded an H by AGA standards and the SI1 would be an SI2" - I would pass on the diamond.

Most dealers in Philly have no problem sending any diamond to David before a client buys the stone for his review. So, what do I have to loose?

 

[indecisive]

How much of a price difference is there? It seems like calling in and getting appraisals on a bunch of diamonds would add up. I hope you get a good one first try!

 

[esp102]

Here''s just a quick example I found - of course there''s more information to look for but
just as an example, if these two stones were correctly graded there''s about a 1,600 difference.


1.77 G SI1 62% 57% EGL m- no ex ex no 7.62*7.67*4.77 $5665 $10027*S
1.78 G SI1 62% 58% GIA m no gd vg 7.73x7.78x4.81 $6538 $11638*SP

 

[denverappraiser]

The pedigree of the lab is not what makes one stone more or less lovely than another. The lab client was the dealer or the cutter and the reason they bought the report was to help them sell their stone better. The usual reason consumers insist on it to maximize the chances that they will get what they expect with their purchase. These are all fine reasons, but they are not entirely aligned. As I’m sure you know, all SI1’s are not the same.

As a rule, the tendency of customers to discriminate in favor of GIA and AGS grading over their various competitors has several major market affects:

1) Cutters and dealers who are trying to maximize their profits (which is all of them) will choose their labs strategically. The decision is not necessarily being made with the objective of providing you with the most accurate shopping information.

2) ‘Borderline’ stones, tend to go to the labs with more liberal grading policies.

3) Buyers are more tolerant of variations with the second tier labs. A ‘certificate’ that is off by a grade or 2 is much more acceptable from some labs than others. This can be useful to the dealers. Many will describe this as a feature because you get a report with a higher grade on it for the same or less money.

4) Most GIA and AGS grading reports come with a cut grade where most EGL reports do not. Dealers may not wish to be advertising this particular feature.

5) The ‘best’ stones, meaning the ones that the dealer hopes to sell for a premium price because of attributes other than color and clarity, tend to go to the higher status labs. Stones where the lab reported color and clarity are the primary sales characteristics tend to go to the less expensive and/or more lenient labs.

6) Cutters and dealers have access to many different markets and they are not all the same. Certain marketplaces are conducive to presenting stones as commodities while others involve more specialized marketing. The path of a stone from the mine to you was not chosen randomly and it wasn’t chosen by you. This choice is being made by some clever people who are working on razor thin profit margins that can vary considerably depending on the results. If they think they can make more money with that particular stone by sending it to a different lab and using a different retailer, there’s a pretty good chance that this is what they’ll do.

So what’s a sensible customer to do? Buy diamonds, not paper. Use the lab documentation to support or refute the expert advice from your dealer, not as a substitute for it. Choose your dealer first, then the diamond, not the other way around.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 4/7/2006 9:01:24 AM
Author: denverappraiser

The pedigree of the lab is not what makes one stone more or less lovely than another. The lab client was the dealer or the cutter and the reason they bought the report was to help them sell their stone better. The usual reason consumers insist on it to maximize the chances that they will get what they expect with their purchase. These are all fine reasons, but they are not entirely aligned. As I’m sure you know, all SI1’s are not the same.

As a rule, the tendency of customers to discriminate in favor of GIA and AGS grading over their various competitors has several major market affects:

1) Cutters and dealers who are trying to maximize their profits (which is all of them) will choose their labs strategically. The decision is not necessarily being made with the objective of providing you with the most accurate shopping information.

2) ‘Borderline’ stones, tend to go to the labs with more liberal grading policies.

3) Buyers are more tolerant of variations with the second tier labs. A ‘certificate’ that is off by a grade or 2 is much more acceptable from some labs than others. This can be useful to the dealers. Many will describe this as a feature because you get a report with a higher grade on it for the same or less money.

4) Most GIA and AGS grading reports come with a cut grade where most EGL reports do not. Dealers may not wish to be advertising this particular feature.

5) The ‘best’ stones, meaning the ones that the dealer hopes to sell for a premium price because of attributes other than color and clarity, tend to go to the higher status labs. Stones where the lab reported color and clarity are the primary sales characteristics tend to go to the less expensive and/or more lenient labs.

6) Cutters and dealers have access to many different markets and they are not all the same. Certain marketplaces are conducive to presenting stones as commodities while others involve more specialized marketing. The path of a stone from the mine to you was not chosen randomly and it wasn’t chosen by you. This choice is being made by some clever people who are working on razor thin profit margins that can vary considerably depending on the results. If they think they can make more money with that particular stone by sending it to a different lab and using a different retailer, there’s a pretty good chance that this is what they’ll do.

So what’s a sensible customer to do? Buy diamonds, not paper. Use the lab documentation to support or refute the expert advice from your dealer, not as a substitute for it. Choose your dealer first, then the diamond, not the other way around.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

This is excellent and clearly stated. Thank you Neil.

 

[kenny]

ESP102 wrote: “Here's just a quick example I found - of course there's more information to look for but
just as an example, if these two stones were correctly graded there's about a 1,600 difference.


1.77 G SI1 62% 57% EGL m- no ex ex no 7.62*7.67*4.77 $5665 $10027*S
1.78 G SI1 62% 58% GIA m no gd vg 7.73x7.78x4.81 $6538 $11638*SP “



So if, as you imply, the stones are equal why did they send one to EGL, which they knew would result in a lower price?
These people are too smart to throw away $1,600.
I don’t think you have discovered a way to get more for your money by buying EGL.

You are not comparing two G SI1s.
You are comparing a GIA G SI1 to an EGL SI1.
Apples and oranges.

There is no “REAL” G VS1. (Though I think GIA is the most widely agree-to reference standard.)
Labs have different standards.
Yes there may be exceptions but I think you get what you pay for.