AGS 0000?

[Tonks]

So I popped into a local jewelry store today, just out of curiosity. They have a new branded diamond, and some of the material surrounding these diamonds made me scratch my head. They are contrasting their branded cut with something they have labeled as AGS 0000. Four zeros. I thought AGS triple zero was the top grade? If not, can someone please help me understand this?

 

[MamaBear]

Following!

 

[DejaWiz]

Could be a typo, unless they are exclusively D color and/or FL clarity.

 

[Tonks]

Could be a typo, unless they are exclusively D color and/or FL clarity.

So the fourth zero could exist?

I’m just trying to make sure I understand this correctly and know what these zeros stand for.

Let me attach one of my CBI certificates as an example.


Let’s use this stone as an example. It’s a 1.11 ct CBI G SI2, and one of my studs. It’s gorgeous. This stone is an AGS 000, and I would have told you it was because of the grades in light performance, polish, and symmetry, which all added up to a cut grade of AGS Ideal or 0. But I could also see how someone would look at a certificate like this and say there are FOUR zeros there: cut grade, light performance, polish, and symmetry.

@Wink , do you have any insight? I am just curious because my understanding was that 000 was kind of the end.

@DejaWiz I guess it could have been a typo….but it would have been a typo they managed to replicate both in the sign they had in the case, and in the marketing materials they distributed. So if a typo, a very expensive one.

 

[DejaWiz]

So the fourth zero could exist?

I’m just trying to make sure I understand this correctly and know what these zeros stand for.

Let me attach one of my CBI certificates as an example.


Let’s use this stone as an example. It’s a 1.11 ct CBI G SI2, and one of my studs. It’s gorgeous. This stone is an AGS 000, and I would have told you it was because of the grades in light performance, polish, and symmetry, which all added up to a cut grade of AGS Ideal or 0. But I could also see how someone would look at a certificate like this and say there are FOUR zeros there: cut grade, light performance, polish, and symmetry.

@Wink , do you have any insight? I am just curious because my understanding was that 000 was kind of the end.

@DejaWiz I guess it could have been a typo….but it would have been a typo they managed to replicate both in the sign they had in the case, and in the marketing materials they distributed. So if a typo, a very expensive one.

 

[RunningwithScissors]

I'm interested to know the answer too!

 

[Tonks]

I see that, and honestly, now I am more confused.

What do the zeros signify? Right now these are the contenders for me:

Zeros:
—Cut (I thought the overall cut grade of 0 included the next three, which were what was signified by a 000, but now I am less sure)
—Light Performance
—Polish
—Symmetry

And now, also:
—Color (0 if a D)
—Clarity (0 if IF)

So….if we say something is an AGS 000, what are we saying? To which of these properties indicated on a report are we referring? And would someone ever say AGS 0000 as I saw in those marketing materials? If it’s a D and IF, this gets murkier for me as well. If two of the zeros are color and clarity, then does one zero stand for all the cut stuff together?

Tagging @Texas Leaguer as I’m guessing you could shed light here as well.

 

[DejaWiz]

I see that, and honestly, now I am more confused.

What do the zeros signify? Right now these are the contenders for me:

Zeros:
—Cut (I thought the overall cut grade of 0 included the next three, which were what was signified by a 000, but now I am less sure)
—Light Performance
—Polish
—Symmetry

And now, also:
—Color (0 if a D)
—Clarity (0 if IF)

So….if we say something is an AGS 000, what are we saying? To which of these properties indicated on a report are we referring? And would someone ever say AGS 0000 as I saw in those marketing materials? If it’s a D and IF, this gets murkier for me as well. If two of the zeros are color and clarity, then does one zero stand for all the cut stuff together?

Tagging @Texas Leaguer as I’m guessing you could shed light here as well.

AGS Triple Zero means best grade in the three subsections of overall Cut Grade.

If they are using quadruple zero, then they probably mean:
Cut Grade: 0
...light performance: 0
...polish: 0
...symmetry: 0

Technically not incorrect, but goes against the widely used "triple zero" nomenclature. Which means the same thing.

 

[John Pollard]

There's some history to the term 'Triple Zero.'

When they started grading diamonds it made something of a splash that AGS used numbers for color, clarity and cut. So the original 'Triple Zero' was a diamond with D color, FL-IF clarity and Ideal cut.

Over time, this gave way to 'Triple Zero' referencing the three components of cut assessment. First, proportions, polish, symmetry. Now, when a light performance report is issued, for light-performance, polish and symmetry.

At some level it's defensible for owners of an AGS stone with D Color, IF Clarity and top marks in cut assessment to say "I have a quintuple-zero."

I can't be certain what the criteria is for the added zero in the Fire & Ice promotion. Since they are leaning into H&As it might be added as an indicator of 'ideal' optical symmetry.

 

[John Pollard]

For fancy shapes the fourth zero appears to be added for 'Overall Cut.'

Princess Diamond - Fire & Ice Diamonds - Brilliant Beyond Compare

The World's Most Brilliant Princess Diamond. Fire & Ice goes beyond Ideal cut grade standards to preserve the classic Princess design.

www.fireandicediamonds.com

Cushion Diamond - Fire & Ice Diamonds - Brilliant Beyond Compare

The World's Most Brilliant Cushion Diamond. Fire & Ice goes beyond Ideal cut grade standards to preserve the classic Cushion design.

www.fireandicediamonds.com

Oval Diamond - Fire & Ice Diamonds - Brilliant Beyond Compare

The World's Most Brilliant Oval Diamond. Fire & Ice goes beyond Ideal cut grade standards to preserve the classic Oval design.

www.fireandicediamonds.com

<< To qualify as AGS 0000 Ideal cut, a diamond must be polished to incredible precision, every facet carefully angled to maximize brilliance, scintillation, fire and overall Light Performance. The AGS Light Performance Grading Report sets the highest standard in the diamond industry, AGS 0000 Ideal. The 0’ mean zero deductions. 0 for Polish, 0 for Symmetry, 0 for overall Cut, and 0 for overall Light Performance. >>

 

[John Pollard]

From what I can find, for round as well.

The Diamond - Fire & Ice Diamonds - Brilliant Beyond Compare

Fire & Ice natural diamonds are cut to precise angles and proportions to maximize their radiant light and sparkle that emerges from the top.

www.fireandicediamonds.com

 

[Tonks]

AGS Triple Zero means best grade in the three subsections of overall Cut Grade.

If they are using quadruple zero, then they probably mean:
Cut Grade: 0
...light performance: 0
...polish: 0
...symmetry: 0

Technically not incorrect, but goes against the widely used "triple zero" nomenclature. Which means the same thing.

That is what I had always thought—that it was the subsections of cut grade. Which makes sense, instinctively.

If anyone added a fourth zero, prior to this conversation I would have assumed, after looking at a report, that it would refer to the overall cut grade (a bit redundant, but I get it if you’re trying to stand out).

There's some history to the term 'Triple Zero.'

When they started grading diamonds it made something of a splash that AGS used numbers for color, clarity and cut. So the original 'Triple Zero' was a diamond with D color, FL-IF clarity and Ideal cut.

Over time, this gave way to 'Triple Zero' referencing the three components of cut assessment. First, proportions, polish, symmetry. Now, when a light performance report is issued, for light-performance, polish and symmetry.

At some level it's defensible for owners of an AGS stone with D Color, IF Clarity and top marks in cut assessment to say "I have a quintuple-zero."

I can't be certain what the criteria is for the added zero in the Fire & Ice promotion. Since they are leaning into H&As it might be added as an indicator of 'ideal' optical symmetry.

Wow! Thank you for sharing this. So the term has evolved over time.

It seems the only way to make sure what people are referring to if they assert a stone (or a line of stones) is a quadruple zero is to ask, then.

Incidentally, if you go to the Fire and Ice website to look up information about their cut (I was super curious after wondering about all this 0000 business), this is the solitary report they have linked under “The Diamond” section of their website. It is a G/SI1, so it definitely would not be a D/IF.

I’m far from an expert in cut, but it also seems to me that these proportions are pretty far off what PS recommended vendors would require for their superideal lines.

 

[John Pollard]

I’m far from an expert in cut, but it also seems to me that these proportions are pretty far off what PS recommended vendors would require for their superideal lines.

Well-spotted. Fire & Ice has always cut to proportions which are more 60-60 ideal than Tolkowsky ideal.

 

[yssie]

"I have a quintuple-zero."

 

[RunningwithScissors]

Sounds like a marketing tactic to call it 0000.

 

[yssie]

Sounds like a marketing tactic to call it 0000.

++

 

[oldminer]

Looks like a lab bending to the desire of a customer to create something tangible from the intangible. Maybe, there is something meaningful here.

If diamonds graded this way are extremely well cut, then possibly they are among the best range of top tier diamonds, but where are the standards and light performance grades coming from? Is it more subjective grading or is there some objective measurement? Is there use of "standard lighting" or is there some sort of "special lighting" and measuring going on which differs from other diamond grading lighting? It would be good to find out what the 4 zero means in objective, factual terms.

 

[Wink]

I spoke with a retailer who looked at the line. He liked their fancies, said what John did about rounds leaning towards 60/60s.

All things considered he did not add the line to his store.

 

[Tonks]

I spoke with a retailer who looked at the line. He liked their fancies, said what John did about rounds leaning towards 60/60s.

All things considered he did not add the line to his store.

Very interesting!

Don’t worry—I wasn’t contemplating the Fire and Ice line for a purchase (especially after looking up their info online and seeing what looked like 60/60 specs as their ideal). I was mostly curious about the marketing. I had never heard of AGS quadruple zero and wanted to figure out what that was all about. My takeaway from this thread is that it’s just marketing and no better than AGS triple zero (with a possible exception for D color or IF clarity).

 

[Wink]

Don’t worry—I wasn’t contemplating the Fire and Ice line for a purchase

Since we first met some years ago, you have never given me reason to worry.

Like so many here, your quest for knowledge and your joy in finding beauty has been a true treasure to watch.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Very interesting!

Don’t worry—I wasn’t contemplating the Fire and Ice line for a purchase (especially after looking up their info online and seeing what looked like 60/60 specs as their ideal). I was mostly curious about the marketing. I had never heard of AGS quadruple zero and wanted to figure out what that was all about. My takeaway from this thread is that it’s just marketing and no better than AGS triple zero (with a possible exception for D color or IF clarity).

To add to what @John Pollard said, the term "triple zero" has evolved. Aside from early use of the term to refer to a D FL Ideal, which was had very limited usage because of extreme rarity, the term became widely used as a synonym for AGS Ideal.

The AGS lab was established in 1996, and at the time their cut grading was 2D and table-based, meaning the proportion parameters were looked up on predefined tables to arrive at a cut grade. (Essentially the way GIA still does it today). So an AGS Ideal at the time had three metrics related to cut; proportions, polish, and symmetry. So when all three had 0 deductions, it was an Ideal or Triple Zero.

In 2005 when AGS introduced their ray tracing cut grade system, a fourth metric was introduced - light performance. A few people began referring to the new standard as quadruple zero, but generally the parlance did not shift from Triple Zero. It was already established as a term for the top cut grade in the market.

Kind of like making a "Xerox" copy on a Canon printer. (ok, I'm showing my age)

 

[DejaWiz]

Kind of like making a "Xerox" copy on a Canon printer. (ok, I'm showing my age)

Ditto. Machine, that is.

 

[Tonks]

Since we first met some years ago, you have never given me reason to worry.

Like so many here, your quest for knowledge and your joy in finding beauty has been a true treasure to watch.

Awww, thank you @Wink . It is always a pleasure to learn from you and the others here who have so much knowledge. I hope all is well with you and yours!

 

[Tonks]

To add to what @John Pollard said, the term "triple zero" has evolved. Aside from early use of the term to refer to a D FL Ideal, which was had very limited usage because of extreme rarity, the term became widely used as a synonym for AGS Ideal.

The AGS lab was established in 1996, and at the time their cut grading was 2D and table-based, meaning the proportion parameters were looked up on predefined tables to arrive at a cut grade. (Essentially the way GIA still does it today). So an AGS Ideal at the time had three metrics related to cut; proportions, polish, and symmetry. So when all three had 0 deductions, it was an Ideal or Triple Zero.

In 2005 when AGS introduced their ray tracing cut grade system, a fourth metric was introduced - light performance. A few people began referring to the new standard as quadruple zero, but generally the parlance did not shift from Triple Zero. It was already established as a term for the top cut grade in the market.

Kind of like making a "Xerox" copy on a Canon printer. (ok, I'm showing my age)

Thank you, @Texas Leaguer ! That is so helpful.

It’s interesting to be a consumer when certain terms aren’t industry standard (or, even if they are, if people decide to break from those on their own without explanation).