Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions?

[ProposerInNeed]

Hello all,

Today I made a decision on a diamond (I think). However, I have some concerns that I need expert advice on (or advice of those with similar experiences). I have some concerns about the gem. Here is a cert: http://i.imgur.com/iDtrj9h.png

I went for a GIA cert diamond that is 0.65 Carat, F Color, IF Clarity, and Excellent Cut (with Excellent Polish and Excellent Symmetry).

I didn't actually set out for an IF diamond. It just so happened I got a great deal on this diamond, and I jumped on the deal. I got this diamond online (although not Blue Nile). I will have a chance to see it and return it, so I am trying to get an idea what I'm looking for. The main question I'm asking, is why was this price so good?

Here are my concerns:

1) First of all, the cut is triple excellent. However, the table vs. depth ratio is one of the larger I have seen. It's 60% table to 60.8% depth. I know just enough about Tolkowsky and his work to be a danger to myself and to know this is way out of that range. Should I be concerned? What about the other proportions (facet angles, etc.)? Cut was originally most important to me!

2) Surface graining. I am only vaguely familiar with this. Could this wind up being visible to the naked eye? Would this drive down the price big time (hence, what I feel was a good deal).

3) Diamond transparency. I don't know how to determine this, but I've seen enough diamonds in person to know there is sometimes a sort of intangible component (at least it seems to me) that determines brilliance and fire. Some diamonds have looked less transparent than others to me (spec'd the same way), and I think that's what I'm trying to get at.

Did I make a good call here or a bad one? What should I look for when I get this gem?

Thanks!!

 

[JulieN]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

1. https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

Light Return Good
Fire Good
Scintillation Good
Spread or diameter for weight Very Good
Total Visual Performance 4.3 - Good - Only if price is your main criterion

2. It is an IF, so it is not visible to the naked eye. A very common notation on IF stones.

3. Cut!

 

[sakari_8]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

Hi

Opinion mentioned below


1) First of all, the cut is triple excellent. However, the table vs. depth ratio is one of the larger I have seen. It's 60% table to 60.8% depth. I know just enough about Tolkowsky and his work to be a danger to myself and to know this is way out of that range. Should I be concerned? What about the other proportions (facet angles, etc.)? Cut was originally most important to me!

Basically the the Ideal Table is between 54 - 58 & ideal depth is between 60 - 62.30 I see depth to be perfect, table being 60% it will be little out of range however I do not really think anything to be concerned in this, sometimes too much info plays in the mind and distracts the mind, I think stone would be good should there be any issue than I am sure return policy you would have from the store so you can return back.

2) Surface graining. I am only vaguely familiar with this. Could this wind up being visible to the naked eye? Would this drive down the price big time (hence, what I feel was a good deal).

Diamond being IF clarity stone will be eye clean & Surface graining is something that is already factored into your diamonds clarity grade, there is nothing to worried about it.

3) Diamond transparency. I don't know how to determine this, but I've seen enough diamonds in person to know there is sometimes a sort of intangible component (at least it seems to me) that determines brilliance and fire. Some diamonds have looked less transparent than others to me (spec'd the same way), and I think that's what I'm trying to get at.

Light performance might make the difference, if you have the choice to see the Idealscope Image of the diamond before buying, it will help determine light performance.

Did I make a good call here or a bad one? What should I look for when I get this gem?
I really do not think you made the bad call, I would buy the stone see it in person and if any concern or if don't like than
return it back to the seller, as these days all have decent return policy in place & thankfully some of the stores are giving even
free return shipping.

 

[delight]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

The angles on the diamond, both crown and pavilion, doesn't look too appealing. Focus on cut. That's the most important factor.

 

[ProposerInNeed]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

Hello everyone,

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I truly appreciate it!

I am learning more about the Holloway tool and Ideal-Scope now. I'm growing increasingly concerned the more I look at these factors. I thought GIA was one of the top labs, so the Excellent cut made me feel very good (I figured perhaps there were things at play here I didn't know enough about to simply look at proportions and that GIA would only rate it excellent if it truly were).

It turns out for logistical reasons, I may not get to see this stone loose, but instead in its setting the first time. I'd still have 30 days to return it, but it'll be harder to evaluate the stone). Is that a bad idea here (especially considering these proportions)?

I guess my main question/concern is: should I be worried that I have a bad score on the HCA tool since cut was my #1 factor going in? Is GIA wrong?

Thanks!

 

[yssie]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

GIA is not wrong in giving your stone an Excellent cut grade - how could they be, when they determine what is and is not EX? Your problem, IMO, is that GIA's definition of "Excellent" may or may not match other tools'/consumers' definitions. If you are comfortable with GIA's definition then you don't need to look any further or learn anything else: it's a GIA EX, plain and simple, no qualifiers. If, however, your definition of "excellent cut" does not match GIA's, that's when you're going to have to poke around on your own.

Most PSers either have their own unique definitions of "excellent cut" (of which GIA EX might be a component), or, if they don't have their own, they value other PSers' definitions more than they value GIA's/HCA's/etc. alone.

 

[ProposerInNeed]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

Thanks, Yssie. I truly appreciate your comments. I'm new to this, and it's all very overwhelming. I want to put my money to work and find the best option possible, but I'm not an expert and it's hard to come up to speed quickly.

I have seen in person that some diamonds come out looking more brilliant than others. I've been trying to understand the science behind that in order to make the best decision possible. Unfortunately, it is tough to sort through (starting from Tolkowsky's original work through everything that has happened until now). And, as you pointed out, there seem to be lots of personal approaches and points-of-view mixed in.

I guess, based on what many of you know here, should I be alarmed that I score so poorly with the HCA? In your opinions of course!

Thanks.

 

[msop04]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

Hello all,

Today I made a decision on a diamond (I think). However, I have some concerns that I need expert advice on (or advice of those with similar experiences). I have some concerns about the gem. Here is a cert: http://i.imgur.com/iDtrj9h.png

I went for a GIA cert diamond that is 0.65 Carat, F Color, IF Clarity, and Excellent Cut (with Excellent Polish and Excellent Symmetry).

I didn't actually set out for an IF diamond. It just so happened I got a great deal on this diamond, and I jumped on the deal. I got this diamond online (although not Blue Nile). I will have a chance to see it and return it, so I am trying to get an idea what I'm looking for. The main question I'm asking, is why was this price so good?

Forgive me if this too invasive to ask, but... how do you know you got a great deal (in other words, what do you base this on)? I understand if you do not want to disclose the price, but the PS veterans may be able to find you a larger stone with better performance for the same price. Personally, it would be worth it to me to let them help. Your FF will thank you.

Just a thought...

 

[yssie]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

My definition of 'excellent cut' doesn't match GIA's exactly, and I wouldn't shortlist this stone. Not because of the HCA score alone, but because
-personally, I prefer RBs that go the other way - higher crown and shallower pav
-personally, I dislike large table reflections (that giant white circle in the middle from which the arrowshafts emerge, it's a function of both table size and pavilion depth)
-personally, I value coloured light return more than (even to the detriment of) white light, but if you'd rather see tons of white sparks and sizzles through a variety of lighting types (the Tiffany recipe) this sort of stone is a good choice

I *would* caution against taking Tolkowsky's thesis as gospel Here are a couple of similarly-proportioned stones on JA:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.80-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-227740
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.71-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-75036

And some links you might find interesting:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cut-tech-thread-virtual-facet-size.55228/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cut-tech-thread-virtual-facet-size.55228/[/URL]
https://www.pricescope.com/files/images/journal/pdf/twodimensionalgrading.pdf
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/role_contrast_diamond_appearance
http://www.octonus.com/oct/projects/ (" "Diamond Design" Revisited" by Bruce Harding)

 

[ProposerInNeed]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

My definition of 'excellent cut' doesn't match GIA's exactly, and I wouldn't shortlist this stone. Not because of the HCA score alone, but because
-personally, I prefer RBs that go the other way - higher crown and shallower pav
-personally, I dislike large table reflections (that giant white circle in the middle from which the arrowshafts emerge, it's a function of both table size and pavilion depth)
-personally, I value coloured light return more than (even to the detriment of) white light, but if you'd rather see tons of white sparks and sizzles through a variety of lighting types (the Tiffany recipe) this sort of stone is a good choice

I *would* caution against taking Tolkowsky's thesis as gospel Here are a couple of similarly-proportioned stones on JA:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.80-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-227740
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.71-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-75036

And some links you might find interesting:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cut-tech-thread-virtual-facet-size.55228/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cut-tech-thread-virtual-facet-size.55228/[/URL]
https://www.pricescope.com/files/images/journal/pdf/twodimensionalgrading.pdf
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/role_contrast_diamond_appearance
http://www.octonus.com/oct/projects/ (" "Diamond Design" Revisited" by Bruce Harding)

Wow! Thank you for the wealth of information. I will dive into the resources you sent, and I'll consider some of the things you had to say. I truly value the informed opinion and the explanation of it!

Do you think it'd be unwise to see this stone for the first time in its setting? I have a 30 day return on both the setting and the stone, but if I get the stone shipped to me, its 30 day policy will start, which gives me less time with the whole e-ring to propose and see if my girlfriend loves it or not (I liked the return policy because this is a surprise, but I want her to be very happy with the choice in the end and thought offering other options could be fun as well). That being said, perhaps I should see this stone first... Thoughts on the matter?

as for price/deal...

Forgive me if this too invasive to ask, but... how do you know you got a great deal (in other words, what do you base this on)? I understand if you do not want to disclose the price, but the PS veterans may be able to find you a larger stone with better performance for the same price. Personally, it would be worth it to me to let them help. Your FF will thank you.

Just a thought...

I would love some help with that (even though I bought this one ... after, all I can return it!).

I'd prefer not to list the price I got it for (I'm sorry if that seems a bit silly), but I'll say this...

Based on my intent with the setting and band, I was hoping to find a good 0.65-0.80 diamond with excellent ('ideal' or perhaps 'optimal' is the word to use) cut, G or colorless, and eye-clean for under $3500. I ended up liking the 'IF' factor as something kind of neat and unique about the stone (even though I was typically looking at VS2s and VS1s), I liked the F color, and the GIA cert looked good (until I found all this HCA stuff). I got it well under budget.

Thanks!

PS - I know there are varying opinions on the matter, but it's also a goal of mine to find a seller that I feel at least has the best of intentions when it comes to sourcing diamonds (less concerned about mining ... more concerned about cutting and polishing). For what it's worth...

 

[ProposerInNeed]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

Example of something more intriguing to some PS'ers?

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.64-carat-f-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-232592

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/0.72-carat-g-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-146897

 

[JulieN]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

The G, ooo, la, la!

 

[ProposerInNeed]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

Thanks!

It's going to be hard for me to make a call without directly comparing the stones (downside of ordering online ). Does anyone have a recommendation for evaluating the current stone I ordered (the 60/60) when I have it in hand?

I don't think I have it in me to order a second stone and put them side by side only to have to return one. Then again, it's going to be hard to evaluate stones without some comparison unless something is obviously wrong. Then again, perhaps that's my answer: will it really matter in the end?

Thanks, all!

 

[JulieN]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

You won't know how much it matters until you order a second one?

 

[ProposerInNeed]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

You won't know how much it matters until you order a second one?

I guess I mean that it'll be hard for me (untrained) to really know how good or bad the first one I ordered is without having something to compare it to. Unless there are some things I can learn and do to check it, that is

 

[hawk25]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

I don't think I have it in me to order a second stone and put them side by side only to have to return one. Then again, it's going to be hard to evaluate stones without some comparison unless something is obviously wrong. Then again, perhaps that's my answer: will it really matter in the end?

I think actually ordering different stones (like the G VS2 from JA) and comparing them side by side is the only way to answer that question. The unfortunate thing is the vast majority of consumers don't know what a super-ideal cut diamond looks like... I sure didn't until a little while ago. So you may look at the stone you ordered and say 'wow this looks great', but there may be a stone that performs even better, you just don't know that's possible.

I like to think that getting the best performing stone requires more research, not necessarily more money. Taking the extra step of comparing the two stones is part of that research.

I quite like that G VS2 stone

 

[yssie]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

Do you have a HoF dealer nearby? Or a Jared - compare with their Peerless line?

 

[ProposerInNeed]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

I do have at least one HoF dealer here. Although the one I know carries the brand is a store I have decided not to go with (possibly awkward to walk in and try a comparison...). The other may be do-able as it was a place I was considering getting the ring appraised, anyway.

I do not have a Jared anywhere near here.

Thanks!

 

[hawk25]

Re: Advice Please - GIA: 0.65, F, IF, 3xEX - Odd Proportions

I don't think Yssie was suggesting that you buy a HoF stone, I certainly wouldn't recommend it. It's outrageously overpriced for what you're getting. HoF stones are generally all ideal cut diamonds, and you can use it as a benchmark of what you'd be getting from either the G VS2 stone from JA that was posted or another ideal cut stone from another PS vendor. I'm sure the retailer will tell you that HoF stones are the absolute best and cannot be marched (all that marketing nonsense), but it's been proven not to be the case.