Advice on a Transitional Cut for a Newbie please

[Ssteel]

Hello All,

I'm new here and from the UK.

I need advice on a diamond that I've been offered for what seems to be a good price. It's a really beautiful looking stone, very lively and bright, with a lot of chunky coloured flashes. It's the first older cut diamond I've ever seen and I am completely out of my depth - my heart says yes, my head no, despite what seems a good price. It's very eye clean and seems whiter than the G it says on the certificate. It doesn't seem to show ant yellowing underside either.

So, could anyone here offer me some help as to whether I'm buying a good stone or not please?

From what I can remember from the certificate (a UK-based firm, so no GIA/EGL etc.), it's a 1.91ct G SI1 and the dimensions are 8.07 x 7.96 x 4.52 (I THINK!). There doesn't appear to be fluorescence - he shone a black light on it alongside my my very fluoresced old diamond, and it appeared white, but again I'm a tad confused as mine didn't show as blue as it does under a strong UV lamp.

Does the depth sound shallow and if so, will that make a huge difference to the stone being something that I'm going to be happy to live with? It may have been 5.42, though, but when I read it (briefly), I'm sure it was the 4-point-something.

It's at times like these I wish I had photographic memory

It also has what looks like a shear type "dink" on the girdle, which the jeweller assures me won't compromise the stone He seems to think it's not damage, but part of the cut. I could see it clearly with a loupe, but also feel it with my nail.

I'm anxious to get this stone as the price is about £5000 less for a similar stone I've seen, and it really does look so different to all the modern RBs I've seen. I fell in love with it as soon as I saw it and had it explained that it looked different as it's an older cut (I've always liked something a little different) and after researching here and seeing all the lovely vintage stones, I'm 99% certain it's what I want.

My dilemma - apart from my reservations about the sheared type "damage" and IIRC what seems a shallow dimension (though I might be wrong about those), is that my DH is not keen on the older cut and has offered to buy me a brand new RB up to twice the price (as long as it'll be the last stone he ever buys me he says!). DH works extremely hard, long hours and I don't want to spend his cash on a diamond I'll regret at some point. If diamond prices don't go up much in the next 5-10 years, I may be a really lucky gal and get both, but if they do and I don't end up with something truly lovely, I know I'll be sorry. I've had too many regrets in my life so far so making the right decision now is important to me.

I have 12 hours to decide as there is someone else looking at it, so all help will be greatly appreciated.

TIA

 

[SB621]

Well the dink would bother me. Especially if it was for an ering. If it was for a regular right hand ring I could probably live with it as I think a good Tranny is hard to find.

Do you have pictures at all. With old cuts I'm not a fan with going off the cert (or in this case lack of cert), so pictures are what work for me.

So a few questions:
How much is it? Could you get a diamond cheaper in the US and pay the import taxes and still have it be around the same price. Jewels by Erica Grace just got in a bunch of old cut dimaonds in high colors that are certed. I would check with them for compariables.
If you purchased the diamond what is the return period? Since there is no offical cert (GIA/ AGL) I would not buy it unless the vendor allowed me to check out the stats with a independant appraiser to verify what everything is.

And finally since this is your first old cut that you have seen- do you like it over MRB's? Why does your DH not like it? Would he perfer an old cut if you put it in a more modern setting?

 

[Ssteel]

Hi SB,

Thanks for the reply.

I'm assuming you're in the US? There's not a returns policy as such in the UK. Online sellers have to offer some form of MBG as an item is "sold unseen" under the Distance Selling Regs here.

The jeweller has discounted it quite heavily (several thousand £s) for me on condition that I pay via a bank transfer as credit card fees would be large. I would have rather have paid CC because of the extra guarantees the CC companies have to give here (not returns, but if it's not what is sold as advertised or damaged/lost within a certain time etc.). He's a third generation local jeweller whose dad I bought off regularly 20-30 years ago so I do trust him.

I had absolutely zero intention of buying any ring, but passed his window by chance (I haven't been in that part of town for several years) and saw this absolutely glorious diamond flashing and winking at me so I went in. I tried it against another shop 1.13 MRB (and my own 1.01 MRB) and it had so much life I was intrigued. It was then he told me that it was an older diamond set into a modern setting (not keen on the current setting, but can always change it later and it has sort of grown on me!). I could see the difference in the cuts and it has a culet. He explained it was a "transitional" cut from the older way of cutting to the way they're cut now - I was so fascinated I came home, looked it up and found you all here

I've spent the last few weeks researching online and shopping B&M jewellers and antique shops and there's not a lot around here (rural Wales). Most of the places I've been to have shown me stones slightly bigger (which, too be honest, I would prefer something around the 2.5ct mark), but a LOT unprettier IYKWIM. Most have been heavily included - a 2.25ct L P1 for over twice the price, and a few others not as clean or bright, again a LOT pricier - up to three times the amount.

I spoke to another jeweller who has been looking around for older stones for me this morning and she assured me that the "dink" could be a natural cleave - which is what the jeweller selling has said. I've also posted about this "chip" on someone else's post on Rocky Talk. I feel a lot happier after speaking to her now.

To answer your questions, the price seems to very good. The closest I can get is a new MRB with an EGL cert G/H VVS2/SI1 similar size for about a £1000 more. I checked out the jewels by EG site and have found similar that, with import duty, would come in a little over what I'm paying. Is there any tax on the prices on the EG site? I know that when I've been to the USA on holiday, I've always had a shock when tax is added at the till as tax over here is always included in the price.

Yes, it is the first older cut I've looked at, though I've actively looked for then since and I've found the nice ones are as rare as unicorns in my area. I have no idea how the dimensions affect how it should look, all I know is that it's unusually bright - it looks white from all angles, even when I've compared it to a F diamond I have and also a CZ stone. I have a J RB that looks dowdy next to it (though that has a lot of fluorescence and flashes small coloured sparkles - nothing like the chunkier colours of this new stone). Dh, like myself, has never seen an older cut, but where I love it, he prefers the finer look of the modern cuts and the slivers of light and colour flash as opposed to the chunkier ones this one is giving off. It also looks bigger on my finger than larger carat RBs do for some reason.

If DH had not made the offer to get the size I would have preferred (about an 8.60 - 8.80 spread), I would have been perfectly happy with this stone, especially at the price I've haggled it down to! I know that I can come here for advice and also order online and have 30 days to make my mind up if I buy new, but even looking for something "nice" within my budget and having advice about how contradictory EGL certified diamonds are (which are the majority within my budget realistically), I'm getting stressed. As a Libran who has previously walked away empty-handed because I couldn't make my mind up between the same t-shirt in two different colours, this diamond-buying lark is hard work

So, again, thank you for your reply. I know this has been a long-winded reply, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are now you know my "story" in full

 

[arkieb1]

If the girdle bothers you, find a good diamond cutter/polisher in the UK and get the girdle polished. It will fix it and they may make the girdle a bit thicker at the same time which would reduce the chances of it getting re-chipped or damaged in the future. It is really really common to have flea bites, chips or pieces out of the girdles of old cut stones they mostly all have thin girdles which over time do get damaged depending upon the type of setting it comes in and how active your lifestyle is.

 

[dtnyc]

The "dink" on the girdle might actually be a "natural," a remnant of the diamond's original crystal face. In the past these were not considered flaws.
My e-ring has a 2.17 transitional cut that had belonged to my husband's grandmother and it has a natural on the girdle. The independent appraiser I had look at the ring for insurance purposes assured me that it was not a flaw, but simply a characteristic of the stone- it is how the stones used to be cut to maximize size, etc.

It could be a chip or it could be a natural- I can't tell, but I would ask. If it is a natural it should not affect the durability of the stone.

ETA: it sounds like this is a loose stone, if so you could always have it set so the "dink" or possibly natural, was hidden under a prong.

 

[Hera]

So, what did you decide? Evaluating an old cut's pricing really goes beyond just the numbers. If you still need further help, feel free to post pics and the cert so we can evaluate it with you.

 

[Ssteel]

Thanks All for the help and advice.

I have spent hours looking at similar older cuts and a few s/h and new RBs. Quite frankly I just haven't seen another diamond that's "called" to me like that one... so, DH bought it for me

Hera - What is your avatar stone? Mine looks similar.

I can't believe that, once again, my inner Libra has made me work so hard. I was drawn to it the moment I saw it, yet carried on looking. Now I have it and it's being re-sized, I can't wait to get my hands on it (or should that be IT on my hand)!

I had intended to replace the setting, but the current one reminds me of my mum's old ring (that my ex-husband stole from me - along with my grandmother's eternity ring and a lot of other close to my heart stuff), so I'm keeping it for a while.

I will post pics as soon as I can - and. once again, thanks for all the advice (especially from Hera - the evaluation of this lovely old stone will be hard - I am already attached to it and have the added bonus of "thinking" I've had a good deal. And also for the advice about the "dink" being natural. After speaking to a few jewellers and one HRD trained lady who gave me very honest advice, I'm a very happy bunny - hopefully, as it'll only be worn when I go out and not knocking around the house with housework and all that! - it won't be at much risk from damage.

 

[Hera]

Sounds like a winner because the most important thing is that you love it!! In that case, it doesn't necessarily need to be evaluated.
Be sure to post pics, would love to see it!

My stone is an late Old European and I haven't done a SMTB for it yet. Will get around to it one day!

 

[Ssteel]

Hi again, Hera.

I'm sorry it's taken so long to arrive - my internet's been down

I may be able to pick it up from being re-sized tomorrow (not pinning hopes on it, though), and will try to post pics when I get it home (have no idea how to do that, but I'll have a go!).

There are a lot of jewellers over here that don't believe in the "transitional" cut - when I've asked if they have them, they look blankly and offer me a MRB instead. Very few antique shops/jewellers will have OECs and OMCs in stock and will actually know what they are (but then I am rural). I am a bit worried at how this will affect the trade-in price should I want to upgrade in the future.

Still, I do absolutely love it as it's so fiery (magpie in a previous life, obviously!).

What is a SMTB? I love your stone as it reminds me of mine

It's lovely to come here and find people who love diamonds as much as me!

 

[Hera]

Can't wait to see your new ring!!!

SMTB: Show Me The Bling
If you go above there's a link under forum for SMTB. It's an area to post pics of your ring! Feel free to post there (or here if it's easier for you).

Yes, there are some jewelers who are not well versed in these old cuts. I encounter it here and there and I'm in a metropolitan area of California. Last jeweler I visited for a quick browse called my stone an old miner's cut and even when I corrected him, he said that's what they're all called!

 

[Ssteel]

Hi Hera - it's here! I'm so glad I found you all here as if I hadn't, I probably would have walked away from a gorgeous stone (at, for prices here, a really good price).

It's absolutely glorious - I've only worn it a few days and had compliments from everyone noticing it. The colours I've had from it have been unbelievable. I was checking it out on the way home and was getting large, rainbow flashes in single chunks (it got caught in the LED from my Kindle booklight and lit up the walls like a disco ball - how I got any sleep that night, I don't know!). I know that's not the be-all and end-all for diamond classification, but for a born magpie like myself, it is! I also love the way it shows so white in most light (especially shaded from direct sunlight, but am a bit concerned that it looks steely grey in some direct sunlight. Is this usual?

I wasn't far off with my guess at remembering the size - it's 1.91ct, SI, G, 7,96-8.09 x 4.87. How do these figures stack up?

My old wedding band doesn't suit it so I'm gonna have some fun in the next few months trying different types on to see what suits

Thanks again for all your help. I'll try and get some pics up in the next few days.

 

[Hera]

A G color is very high color for an old cut. Does it have a GIA or EGL certificate?
The steely gray in sunlight could be fluorescence! It's highly desirable in old cuts and can help diamonds appear higher in color.

I'm still waiting for pics, btw! I promise not to evaluate it and just enjoy it!!

 

[Ssteel]

Hello again

I'm still fiddling with pictures (and then I have to try to get them on here!!!). Of course, it would end up dull and wet since I got it home.

Definitely no fluorescence (which I first heard of here) - the jeweller put my old stone and a few others under a blue lamp after I asked. My old one glowed! Some of the others had varying amounts, but this one was clear.

No cert from GIA or EGL - just a UK based one. There's a small inclusion which is hard to find under a loupe, otherwise absolutely clean. The "shear" on the girdle seems natural (going by what the independent gemologist described). The jeweller put it next to a few GIA cert rings (E and F grades) and I had a really hard time seeing any difference - actually I couldn't! He was also puzzled it came back as a G, too, unless, as he mentioned, it's yellower underneath (hard to tell as it's mounted - but we both agreed it didn't look yellower through the mount).

It's also very symmetrical. I've had a close look at as many OECs and Transitonals as I possibly could over the last few weeks and have found this one to be the cleanest, whitest and most symmetrical of the lot. Each "bad" one I looked at made me love mine a little bit more - though I did see a gorgeous 1.57ct one that was a little bit more included than mine, but had the prettiest peach/pink tint I've ever seen. I saw it on a sunny day and the colours it flashed were amazing. They wanted 3 times what I paid for mine

I did a search here and there are a few posts about diamonds going grey in direct sunlight - the consensus is that there's overhead shadow blocking, but I'd tried moving it around and it was still steel grey in some angles. It's bright white in darker conditions and flashing rainbows in certain lights and sunlight at some angles.

What did you think of the numbers? The full angles etc., weren't on the certificate, unfortunately.

I'm still in love and had more fun again last night with the mini disco flashing away under my Kindle light

Thanks again for your help

 

[Ssteel]

Just to add - I've just had a look at today's eye candy and when I said it goes grey, I think it's a similar colour to cmphjpj's first pic. It's a really bright white in other lighting so I'm puzzled.

I've also done another quick search using the word "stele" and note Garry H (Cut Nut)'s reply states that looking in direct sunlight is a no-no - [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-some-diamonds-look-more-grey.152013/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-some-diamonds-look-more-grey.152013/[/URL]

I didn't want to go back to an old thread and ask, but any idea why looking in direct sunlight isn't good?

 

[Hera]

What numbers?!! Show us the diamond already It sounds lovely!

 

[Hera]

Just to add - I've just had a look at today's eye candy and when I said it goes grey, I think it's a similar colour to cmphjpj's first pic. It's a really bright white in other lighting so I'm puzzled.

I've also done another quick search using the word "stele" and note Garry H (Cut Nut)'s reply states that looking in direct sunlight is a no-no - [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-some-diamonds-look-more-grey.152013/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-some-diamonds-look-more-grey.152013/[/URL]

I didn't want to go back to an old thread and ask, but any idea why looking in direct sunlight isn't good?

I don't know. I agree that diamonds don't really look their best in direct sunlight. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Ssteel]

Hi Hera.

I haven't forgotten you - I'm trying to get a decent pic! The only time we've had decent weather I've been out and only had my phone - and the pics have not turned out well tbh. I did post a pic of an old opal ring I have on Coloured Stones, but with hindsight, as it's a bit of an antique, maybe I should have posted it here. That pic was taken with my phone and it hasn't really picked up the depth of the colours.

 

[bunnycat]

Just to add - I've just had a look at today's eye candy and when I said it goes grey, I think it's a similar colour to cmphjpj's first pic. It's a really bright white in other lighting so I'm puzzled.

I've also done another quick search using the word "stele" and note Garry H (Cut Nut)'s reply states that looking in direct sunlight is a no-no - [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-some-diamonds-look-more-grey.152013/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-some-diamonds-look-more-grey.152013/[/URL]

I didn't want to go back to an old thread and ask, but any idea why looking in direct sunlight isn't good?

It causes too much information to be coming in to your eye at once and your eyes can't process it correctly so they see darkness instead of light. It's called cancellation. Take it under a tree where the light is broken up and that will fix the issue.

 

[Ssteel]

Thanks Bastetcat.

I'm still struggling with pictures as I don't have a camera, just the one on my phone. The weather here has been dull and miserable, too. Not very helpful.

I do have a few, but am a bit self-conscious about posting them after seeing the stunning photos already here.

 

[rileyl]

Thanks Bastetcat.

I'm still struggling with pictures as I don't have a camera, just the one on my phone. The weather here has been dull and miserable, too. Not very helpful.

I do have a few, but am a bit self-conscious about posting them after seeing the stunning photos already here.

Don't be shy!!! We're dying to see it!

 

[KristinTech]

Just to add - I've just had a look at today's eye candy and when I said it goes grey, I think it's a similar colour to cmphjpj's first pic. It's a really bright white in other lighting so I'm puzzled.

I've also done another quick search using the word "stele" and note Garry H (Cut Nut)'s reply states that looking in direct sunlight is a no-no - [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-some-diamonds-look-more-grey.152013/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/do-some-diamonds-look-more-grey.152013/[/URL]

I didn't want to go back to an old thread and ask, but any idea why looking in direct sunlight isn't good?

It causes too much information to be coming in to your eye at once and your eyes can't process it correctly so they see darkness instead of light. It's called cancellation. Take it under a tree where the light is broken up and that will fix the issue.

*lightbulb moment!! * For all my reading here, this hadn't really made sense to me before now. I could never figure out why sometimes my ring (1 ct oval ex/ex, F, SI1) looked like a flashlight--literally lit from within-- and other times the color black in areas. Now it makes sense why all these beautiful photographs here are done outside with leaves as a backdrop.