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Advice on 2 Diamonds

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erainman

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
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Hello Everyone,

I''m closing in on purchasing a 2ct. round engagement ring and would love to hear your thoughts on the following two stones:

Stone 1:
Carat: 2.08
Color (Lab): I (GIA)
Clarity: VS2
Cut Grade: Very Good (GIA)
Measurements: 8.39 x 8.42 x 4.93, Table: 59, Depth: 58.7, Crown Angle: 33, Pavillion Angle: 40.8
Flourescence: Strong Blue

Stone 2:
Carat: 2.20
Color (Lab): G (EGL)
Clarity: VS2
Cut Grade: EGL Ideal (Hearts and Arrows)
Measurements: 8.49 x 8.43 x 5.02, Table: 59, Depth: 59.3, Crown Angle: 33, Pavillion Angle: 40.6
Flourescence: None

I welcome any and all of your thoughts. Of course, I know it''s hard to say which one you''d like based on numbers alone, but assuming both of these stones are the same price, let me know what you think (e.g. any thoughts on the strong blue flourescence on Stone 1 or that the grading might be a little artificially high on Stone 2 bc it''s EGL and not GIA, etc).

Thanks a lot!
 
Welcome! Sorry for the negative response but I would pass on both those stones. I am not liking the table size in either, and I am not totally comfortable with a EGL certed stone. However, they do score under 2 on the HCA so they could be promising, the tables sizes are just a little large for my taste. Can you get an IS image for either? Are you open to purchasing online?
 
Ditto, neither of them have the cut standards I would like to see. Try for a depth between 60-62 and a table between 54-57. Also, check out the HCA and make sure that your stone gets a 2.0 or less: https://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp. From there we can use other criteria to make a final selection. Cut is really what makes a diamond sparkle and look amazing, so cut is king!
 
Plugging in the #''s on the Pricescope Cut Advisor yields the following:

Stone 1 receives an overall "1" or "Excellent" rating, and gets an "Excellent" rating for all four characteristics (Light return, Fire, Scintillation and Spread).

Stone 2 receives an overall "1" or "Excellent" rating, and gets an "Excellent" rating for all three of four characteristics (Fire, Scintillation and Spread) and a "Very Good" for Light Return.

Even if the the table is not quite in the ideal range, if it is in proportion with the other dimensions such that it gets an "Excellent" rating, should that be enough to let me know that the diamond is well-cut (q)

The EGL stone (Stone 2) also is cut such that it has the "hearts and arrows". Is this also an indicator that the stone''s cut is well executed (q)

I would love to purchase something online because it seems like some great deals are out there, but nothing really compares to seeing the stone in person. No matter what the percentages say, if you can see the stone you know if it sparkles or if it doesn''t.
 
With the EGL diamond, do you know if it is EGL USA or other branch such as EGL Europe or Israel or others? It is said that EGL USA have the best rep for accuracy with their grading, so it would be useful to know this info.
 
Stone 2 was graded by EGL USA (not EGL Turkey, Israel, etc.)
 
Should I be afraid of the EGL stone just because its EGL or does it not matter because the HCA score is a "1" (q) Are there better 2ct. stones out there for around $15K (q)

Any help would would be greatly appreciated!
 
2.2 G VS2~15K?
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Date: 6/13/2008 2:38:02 PM
Author: JulieN
2.2 G VS2~15K?
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In other words...you can assume that this stone is not G VS2. No way.
 
Date: 6/13/2008 2:59:56 PM
Author: ayala_jessica


Date: 6/13/2008 2:38:02 PM
Author: JulieN
2.2 G VS2~15K?
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Ditto !!
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Wow. EGL Israel? This is a candidate for appraiser involvement if you don't run away. GIA I-SI pricing.

Cut is a bit shallow by the way. Based on numbers provided GIA would give it VG. Predicted AGS 2 in light performance.
 
I understand what you are saying that nothing compares to seeing the stone in person, BUT nothing compares to a stunning ideal cut stone hands down. I would much rather purchase a stone sight unseen (which I did, all the way from Australia) from a reputable PS vendor with a reliable certificate and know that it will be gorgeous than get an average stone just so I can see it in person first. If you are unhappy, which I really doubt you will be will a great quality stone, you can always return it and get your money back. I don''t know of many B&M stores that have this policy.
What is more worrying, that the prices seem way too low for a well cut stone of that colour clarity combo. This is a warning flag that it''s not well cut and just won''t spakle like a ideal cut stone. Honestly, if drop slightly under the 2ct magic mark, you will save lots of money and you won''t be able to tell the tiny difference in size.

We can also suggest some beautiful stones from PS vendors if you like. That way you will get an idea of what a well cut stone will run to online. This is the minimum you will pay in a B&M as there prices are always more expensive. Good luck!!!
 
I appreciate all of your input.

Stone 2 (the 2.20, G, VS2) was graded by EGL USA. I''ve read that EGL labs in Europe and other places are less strict. I know that EGL generally has a reputation for being less strict than GIA, but even assuming a 1 color, 1 clarity drop to GIA grading, I''m basically looking at an H-I, SI1. Having looked at the diamond and seeing that it''s completely eye-clean (the inclusions are very minimal even through the loop), I''m just trying to figure out if the cut is nice enough such that $16,500 would be a fair price for the stone. The EGL USA cert indicates that the stone is cut to "hearts and arrows" although I have not seen it for myself using an idealscope. The HCA indicates that, based on the dimensions, the stone is excellent in all four characteristics (Light Return, Fire, Scintillation, Spread).

Some of the comments have indicated that the table is too large at 59 or that the depth is not enough at 59.3. On the other hand, I''ve read that since these type of dimensions are close to 60-60, they produce excellent performing stones even though they are not in the 54-57 table, 60-62 depth range. Again, the HCA on this site shows the performace as "excellent" in all categories. Even if the stone is not an "ideal" cut or would not grade as a GIA "excellent" cut and would get an AGS2--is it still a nice cut and worth the 16,5 or am I way off here (q)
 
Date: 6/13/2008 7:31:57 PM
Author: erainman
I appreciate all of your input.

Stone 2 (the 2.20, G, VS2) was graded by EGL USA. I've read that EGL labs in Europe and other places are less strict. I know that EGL generally has a reputation for being less strict than GIA, but even assuming a 1 color, 1 clarity drop to GIA grading, I'm basically looking at an H-I, SI1. Having looked at the diamond and seeing that it's completely eye-clean (the inclusions are very minimal even through the loop), I'm just trying to figure out if the cut is nice enough such that $16,500 would be a fair price for the stone. The EGL USA cert indicates that the stone is cut to 'hearts and arrows' although I have not seen it for myself using an idealscope. The HCA indicates that, based on the dimensions, the stone is excellent in all four characteristics (Light Return, Fire, Scintillation, Spread).

Some of the comments have indicated that the table is too large at 59 or that the depth is not enough at 59.3. On the other hand, I've read that since these type of dimensions are close to 60-60, they produce excellent performing stones even though they are not in the 54-57 table, 60-62 depth range. Again, the HCA on this site shows the performace as 'excellent' in all categories. Even if the stone is not an 'ideal' cut or would not grade as a GIA 'excellent' cut and would get an AGS2--is it still a nice cut and worth the 16,5 or am I way off here (q)
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Curious - what is the date on the grading report?

There is no problem with the table size. Diamonds with tables near 60% take on a different character but can be great. It's a bit shallow and you may find that it darkens when someone looks closely at it (shallow diamonds reflect back more shadow from the viewer's head). It would be a lot easier to give input if we had an ideal-scope or ASET. Without those we're left with numbers that look promising...but no confirmation...and a price that seems great even if EGL is a grade or two off...but no way of knowing what's real. Frankly, I would take some $ you are (apparently) saving and hire an independent appraiser to examine the diamond when you purchase it. If the seller is confident that you're getting the right diamond for a great price he should have no problem agreeing to a reasonable inspection and return period. This would be helpful for your peace of mind as well as insurance purposes.

BTW, I may have missed this... Have you seen the diamond? That's always most important.
 
The EGL USA report is dated 5-8-08. I saw the stone next to two GIA I''s (one SI1 and one VS2) that were ex-ex and the EGL certed G sparkled as much if not more than the GIA I''s and had noticeably less yellow tint than the GIA I''s.

How much should it cost to get an independent appraisal and what is a reasonable time to obtain one (and get a refund if it comes back at odds with what I paid) (q)
 
Date: 6/13/2008 10:06:53 PM
Author: erainman
The EGL USA report is dated 5-8-08. I saw the stone next to two GIA I''s (one SI1 and one VS2) that were ex-ex and the EGL certed G sparkled as much if not more than the GIA I''s and had noticeably less yellow tint than the GIA I''s.

How much should it cost to get an independent appraisal and what is a reasonable time to obtain one (and get a refund if it comes back at odds with what I paid) (q)
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Were the GIA stones ex-ex in polish & sym only, or EX in cut as well? In most cases GIA I color with EX cut should show very little tint face-up unless they are steep/deep (which is possible). Of course perception, environment and specific diamonds vary so I''m limited by knowing what you judge as "noticeably less yellow." Suffice it to say you like this diamond.

For an appraiser the pricing and range of service varies. A strong decisive opinion and documentation can be had for around $100, more or less. What you get for your money can vary dramatically. If you post your area of the country there may be some experienced people here who can give you a recommendation. I listed a few who are known for high standards and thorough, detailed service in this thread.

Reasonable time: If your dealer was competing with online vendors it would be 10-30 days. In live retail markets a week is reasonable in my opinion. I suggest you plan it out - pick your appraiser, set up a tentative time for the appraisal, understand the timeline - and then approach the seller with your strategy fully developed.
 
John,

Thanks for all of the helpful insight and info. I''m not too far from Sarasota so I''m going to try to set up a time next week for an appraisal. I''ll let you know the results!
 
John (or anyone else) -

How do I go about asking for a reasonable refund\return period from the dealer without seeming like I''m questioning the diamond''s authenticity (q) I feel kind of awkward asking for a return period for purposes of getting an appraisal because I think the deal I''m be getting on the stone might be too good to be true.

Any suggestions (q)
 
Date: 6/16/2008 4:13:06 PM
Author: erainman
John (or anyone else) -

How do I go about asking for a reasonable refund eturn period from the dealer without seeming like I'm questioning the diamond's authenticity (q) I feel kind of awkward asking for a return period for purposes of getting an appraisal because I think the deal I'm be getting on the stone might be too good to be true.

Any suggestions (q)
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All the more reason to insist on this. If the diamond is as-advertised the seller has nothing to worry about. Just tell him you would like to take it to an independent appraiser for verification and insurance documentation. He should welcome the opportunity for an outside expert to verify the good deal you're getting. This is no different than taking a car to your mechanic to be sure all is well. With big-ticket purchases an "all sales final" attitude raises warning flags.

Plenty of jewelry sellers on the internet and in live markets offer inspection-and-return periods of up to 30 days. A couple of days, up to a week is a reasonable request.
 
What exactly do you mean when you say for "insurance documentation" purposes (q) I thought that most jewelers do in-house appraisals, no (q) I get that the whole point is to obtain an independent third-party appraisal, but if they offer appraisal services in-house, how do I request the opportunity to have a third party "verify" the good deal I''m getting without seeming like I''m questioning the authenticity (q)

Also, is $16,500 such a great deal on this stone that it really raises red flags (i.e. is this an unreasonably low price) (q)

Thanks again for your help!
 
Date: 6/16/2008 6:29:59 PM
Author: erainman
What exactly do you mean when you say for ''insurance documentation'' purposes (q) I thought that most jewelers do in-house appraisals, no (q) I get that the whole point is to obtain an independent third-party appraisal, but if they offer appraisal services in-house, how do I request the opportunity to have a third party ''verify'' the good deal I''m getting without seeming like I''m questioning the authenticity (q)

Also, is $16,500 such a great deal on this stone that it really raises red flags (i.e. is this an unreasonably low price) (q)

Thanks again for your help!
Click to expand...
Appraisal services in-house for insurance usually look something like this:

One diamond ring in platinum mounting weighing 1.84 cts G VS1. Estimated replacement value $25000

This is a real appraisal done by Rich: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/review-of-a-leo-cut.17770/
 
The in-house appraisal is also in the control of the seller. Hypothetically, if something is "off" with this diamond, use of the in-store document to insure it will just mean you're paying too much for insurance.

A reputable jewelry pro will be aware of everything we have discussed and should make this process easy for you, the customer. It sounds like you're worried about hurting his feelings. Don't be. This is business. It's alright to "trust...but verify."
 
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