Advice: Buying a Rock with No Papers

[maple]

Hi guys,

Just need some advice on buying a diamond that does not have certification papers. As you can see, I am REALLY new to this.

Here''s the story...

I have been looking around for rocks and a reputable liquidator called me today saying that he has a nice 2 Carat, Round Cut, Dimaond that he just got, "of the street", as in it was consigned to him by an old customer. This place is not a pawn shop, but a liquidator. He offers it to me for $7800. I went in to look at it and it has no Certification papers. But, this dealer is a GIA certified gemologist himself, and he lets me compare to cut, color, clarity, and of course size with diamonds that are better (G, VS1 in 1.5C, Excellentx3), as well as worse (K, SI1, very good) and tells me that it is likely a 2 carat, J, SI2, very good. I have been looking at a decent amount of diamonds and can tell that there are some very small/faint inclusions (it looks better than others that have been called SI1 to me). The color is very faint (I can''t really tell the difference between H-J), and looks like H-J to me (although we were looking under plain flourescent lights not those fancy jewelry store lights.

The guy seems honest to me, and his dad has owned a reputable jewelry shop in the area for many decades. I do not doubt that it is an actual diamond (not CZ or synthetic), and I actually believe that he is giving it pretty accurate grades.
To my eyes, it looks pretty good, and it is way bigger than I thought I could afford!

My concern is the thought of buying it WITHOUT certification papers. I am just worried about buying a "Lemon".

The other catch is that he wants to move it quickly (and he tells me that Certification can take weeks). I have couple hundred dollar deposit holding it for me.

Should I buy this diamond (or any for that matter) without the papers? Can I believe a guy who has the jeweler''s pedigree and graduated first in his class from the GIA? Am I just being naive?

Please Help!

Thanks,

Leaf

 

[diamondseeker2006]

No, you should not trust anyone''s word when it comes to $7800 and no certification. Tell him you will need it sent to an independent appraiser and after that, you will determine if you want it. There are fine appraisers listed under Resources on this site. It would be worth paying the shipping and appraisal fee to verify if the stone is worth it or not.

 

[Skippy123]

Well if you really want the diamond then send it to an appraiser first BEFORE you buy it. Usually things that are too go to be true are just that.
Welcome to Pricescope!

 

[DiamanteBlu]

Ditto.

I also did a quick search on prices here. For a 2 carat J SI2 a few stones popped up ranging in price from $6900ish [EGL cert] to $11,000ish [GIA cert].

The deal may not be as good as it was made to sound.

 

[maple]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I was thinking the same things.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

If you''re uncertain, your best bet is taking the diamond to an independant appraiser for evaluation.

Personally, I''d never buy a diamond without papers, especially one costing $7,800! It''s nice to know what you''re spending your money on. (even my .41 diamond have AGS certificates.)

Anyhow, the liquidator part would make me uncomfortable and any diamond described as one "off the street" is a complete turn-off to me. How is this guy reputable? How many reliable people have supplied references?

 

[jayreneepea]

How come he says it''s likely a 2 ct? Doesn''t he have a scale?

What if it''s a 1.7 or 1.8 or a K or an L or an I1 or a really crappy cut? You could be seriously overpaying!

 

[tulip928]

Date: 11/23/2007 11:02:50 PM
Author: Skippy123
Well if you really want the diamond then send it to an appraiser first BEFORE you buy it. Usually things that are too go to be true are just that.
Welcome to Pricescope!

You''re exactly right, Skippy.

My husband got one of those good deal diamonds for me from a "good friend". It was presented to me as being perfectly cut, but a good deal because his jeweler friend had access to great uncertified diamonds. "Certificates are b.s." ha ha

When resetting the stone, I found out the symetry is actually poor. What a shame - he payed way too much considering this, even thought it''s only a .75 (approx.)

 

[denverappraiser]

Many red flags here.

1) GIA does not ‘certify’ gemologists, or diamonds either for that mater. They also don’t offer a class ranking system so it’s not possible to identify who is at the ''top of his class''. This tells me he either doesn’t understand or is deliberately misrepresenting his credentials. Neither is a good sign.

2) Color grading is done from the pavilion side. This is not possible with a mounted stone and, presumably, it’s being examined mounted since he can’t give you an actual weight. The difference between a J and a K is hugely important.

3) He’s grading the cut, polish and symmetry as excellent on a mounted stone? How? It’s not that this is completely impossible to estimate (depending on the mounting) but there are some huge assumptions and variables because of the portions of the stone that you can’t see.

4) I know a lot of this kind of broker and I don’t know a single one that wouldn’t pull a suspected 2 carater and actually weigh it unless it’s mounted in an incredibly cool setting and maybe even then. He knows exactly what it weighs and has chosen not to tell you. Hmmm.

5) ‘Liquadator’, ‘pawn shop’, ‘estate buyer’, ‘jeweler’ and many other descriptors are different only in décor as far as this sort of business goes. There’s certainly nothing wrong with buying from the public and reselling to other people but the name on the sign does not change the gestalt of the business. Pawn shops make loans, which puts them into a category with banks and, in most cases, it requires a license but for what you’re talking about there is no difference.

6) He’s correct that getting proper paperwork would take many weeks but it’s crazy that he’s telling you that this is a problem. Play a bit with the database above titled ‘pricescope your diamond’. The difference between a 1.85 K/I1 and a 2.01 J/SI2 is HUGE, on the order of 50%. More if it really is an xxx. All it takes is pulling the stone, sending it to GIA, paying a few hundred dollars and waiting a few weeks. That’s a $3-$5k return for a month long wait and about $300 in fees and shipping. What possible justification could he provide for why he wouldn’t do that unless he thinks the results from GIA would be less than what he’s telling you.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[DBM2]

At the end of the day it comes down to your relationship with this man and how much you trust him. Do you feel he could possibly be setting you up and selling you a lemon or genuinely "got it easy and wants to sell it easy". as a consumer it would certainly be understandable to take the cautious route but i would not besmirch the integrity of the vendor merely because he offered you a diamond without certification as a sign that he''s "pulling somthing". In other words "Suspect him but Respect him"

Peace

Daniel - DBM Diamonds

 

[Sharon101]

The idea of buying a diamond without knowing its correct weight speaks volumes about the seller. The paper work you can live without if you have a trust worthy seller .....but it is beyond belief that a seller would try to sell a diamond without stating the weight.

I mean, you would get upset if the fruit shop did that with your apples, and that only involves dollars!!! Here we are talking thousands of dollars, and you dont even know how much your diamond weighs.

I say run from this deal, not because of the lack of paper work but because the seller is untrustworthy imo.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/24/2007 6:19:54 PM
Author: DBM2
At the end of the day it comes down to your relationship with this man and how much you trust him. Do you feel he could possibly be setting you up and selling you a lemon or genuinely ''got it easy and wants to sell it easy''. as a consumer it would certainly be understandable to take the cautious route but i would not besmirch the integrity of the vendor merely because he offered you a diamond without certification as a sign that he''s ''pulling somthing''. In other words ''Suspect him but Respect him''

Peace

Daniel - DBM Diamonds

Daniel,

Taking a fresh start? I see you''re still DBM...

P.S. I suppose you have a relationship, too, to DBM''s Girl...

 

[maple]

Thanks everybody! Your advice and varying perspectives have been extremely helpful!

-Leaf

 

[DBM2]

Date: 11/24/2007 7:24:45 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Daniel,

Taking a fresh start? I see you''re still DBM...

P.S. I suppose you have a relationship, too, to DBM''s Girl...

forgot my password for the old account lol. so just made DBM2

who''s DBM''s Girl?

 

[Regular Guy]

Should I not be telling?

Otherwise...strange coincidence...