A fair price??

[Neegan]

Hi,

I posted a few backs about a ring I was looking at, in the end I decided not to buy it and my search continued.

Anyway I am about to purchase the following ring (pictures at the bottom. It is a 18K white gold art deco vintage ring:

Main diamond: Old brilliant cut, approx. 1 carat, approx. VS1/2, approx. G/H colour. (I am guessing approx as the diamond has not been out of its setting)
The side baguette cut diamonds have an approx. total weight of 0.25ct.

We have negotiated a price of £3150.

Would people say this is a fair price??

Thanks in advance.

 

[MollyMalone]

I know how once one has decided to make such a purchase, we become eager to have the ring on our finger. But I'd like to kindly suggest that you keep looking; the proportions of that center diamond + side stones are kinda "clunky", not very graceful imo & the millegraining wasn't done well (altho' if you know of a jeweler who specializes in repairing-restoring vintage-antique jewelry, you could show them the photos & ask their opinion about redoing the millegrain, and get a price estimate on that, before proceeding with the transaction if this ring is one that truly makes your heart sing).

Have you seen ebay seller antiquevelvetgloves' listings?
http://stores.ebay.com/antiquevelvetgloves/
I think their prices are reasonable; their listings include a number of good quality photos; the descriptions seem accurate, not "overblown." The parent company, Three Sparks Antiques LTD, has a known London address and verifiable phone number & is registered with the British government. But you'll get the benefit of a longer return policy (14 days instead of 7) if you make the purchase through eBay instead of their web site (http://www.antiquevelvetgloves.com).

 

[Neegan]

Thanks for the response! I am pretty clueless when it comes to jewellery.

I quite like the proportions of the ring. Do you think the price is fair for what it is??? I can't find anything to compare it too.

Any help very much appreciated.

 

[ac117]

Just my two cents, but the center looks more like a poorly cut round cut than an old brilliant cut. I think you could do better and would pass. I think I'd also prefer this setting with a step cut in the middle, but that's just me.

 

[denverappraiser]

You've got a lot of approximating going on here. What's the source of this grading? 0.95/SI1/I differs dramatically from 1.01/VS1/G for example and both fall into the category of approx 1.00, approx VS1/2, approx G/H. You're looking at a factor of 2. More if you consider cutting topics.

 

[Neegan]

Source comes from a jewellers called Phillip Lloyd based in Reigate. They carried out a Valuation for Insurance purposes for the seller.

I really love the ring but I am a very cautious money spender so just wanted to check I wasn't over paying!

Again all help is very much appreciated.

 

[Neegan]

Source comes from a jewellers called Phillip Lloyd based in Reigate. They carried out a Valuation for Insurance purposes for the seller.

I really love the ring but I am a very cautious money spender so just wanted to check I wasn't over paying!

Again all help is very much appreciated.

 

[kenny]

Source comes from a jewellers called Phillip Lloyd based in Reigate. They carried out a Valuation for Insurance purposes for the seller.

I really love the ring but I am a very cautious money spender so just wanted to check I wasn't over paying!

Again all help is very much appreciated.

I see a red flag.
The source of those important color and clarity grades is a jeweler?
Is the ring being sold by this jeweler for a commission from the owner?

If not, who is selling it?
Was Lloyd already paid for this 'valuation'?
Or will they be paid a percentage of the sale price after the sale?
See where I'm going here with this?

The more independent the "appraiser" is (as in being hired, paid, and finished being compensated before the sale) the better.
If they have a financial interest in the sale then they have a conflict of interest and I would not trust the 'grades' and therefore the price.

I agree the cut is poor, but if you really really want it I'd pay for a real independent appraisal from a professional appraiser before proceeding.
This appraiser must have no relation to the jeweler.
IOW if the jeweler gives this appraiser referrals or direct business I wouldn't trust it to be a truly fully independent appraisal.

When money is involved I'm not a very trusting kind of guy.
Perhaps you have more faith in mankind than I do.

 

[canuk-gal]

Source comes from a jewellers called Phillip Lloyd based in Reigate. They carried out a Valuation for Insurance purposes for the seller.

I really love the ring but I am a very cautious money spender so just wanted to check I wasn't over paying!

Again all help is very much appreciated.

You say you really love the ring--which makes behaving "rational" difficult--because you really want it/the ring!

Overpaying AND not knowing what you are getting or paying for are two different and concerning issues. As Neil said...too many approximates here...and that would give "me" pause.

cheers--Sharon

 

[Neegan]

Thanks for replying.

The appraisal was done a year ago by the jewellers. It was done solely for insurance purposes. It is a private seller who never wears the ring anymore.

I'm probably to trusting!

 

[MollyMalone]

Neegan, since having a true vintage ring matters to you, may I suggest that you next ask for photos clearly depicting the full hallmark, including the UK Assay Office and date letter (date letter was compulsory until 199, so you can verify whether the mounting does indeed date back to the Art Deco era.

Philip Lloyd has a remarkably similar ring on its web site (I'm not seeing a listing that seems to be for the one that you are considering) but it's acknowledged to be "Art Deco style", meaning it's not original to that period:
http://www.philiplloydjewellers.co.uk/index.php/art-deco-diamond-solitaire-ring-1-50ct-18ct-white-gold.html

 

[Rhea]

There's an exemption to the date letters. They often aren't on older pieces which I think is why I just see marks for 18 ct PLAT on some older jewellery pieces I've purchased over the years. www.theassayoffice.co.uk/help-with-hallmarks/pre-1950-exemption I don't know much about this, but I agree that asking for the hallmarks is a good one and then you can study which ones were in use at what time. That should help!

Without diamonds being unset even the Birmingham Assay Office, who appraised a couple of my rings about a year ago, gave a range of 2 colour grades and 1 clarity grade for 1 thing and 2 colour and 2 clarity grades for the other thing I sent them. I queried and was told that they couldn't be more accurate unless I wanted to have it unset. I get that's not the American norm, I had a ring I decided to sell appraised over there a few years back, but it seems to be the norm in the UK based on what I've seen in stores and what I experienced.

ETA: Like Molly, I found another, called Art Deco Style. www.acsilver.co.uk/shop/pc/SOLD-2-30ct-Diamond-Solitaire-and-Platinum-Ring-Antique-Circa-1930-219p3898.htm I think you're looking at a new ring in the art deco style rather than an original vintage ring.

 

[Neegan]

Z

 

[Neegan]

Thanks again everyone for replying.

 

[Neegan]

Just my two cents, but the center looks more like a poorly cut round cut than an old brilliant cut. I think you could do better and would pass. I think I'd also prefer this setting with a step cut in the middle, but that's just me.

What indicates a poor cut round rather than an old brilliant??

 

[ac117]

The faceting of the stone. Take a look at Jewels by Grace and look through pictures of OECs, OMCs, antique cushions - they all have larger, bubbly or blocky facets. Even transitional cuts where you could start to see the 'arrows' like modern round brilliants have chunky arrows/facets.
Poorly cut MRB:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/1-59ct-round-brilliant-diamond-ring-gia-j-si1#.WAZ4fvkrKUk
Trasnitional:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/1-46ct-transitional-cut-diamond-gia-s-t-vs1#.WAZ43vkrKUk
OEC:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/new-additions/1-72ct-old-european-cut-diamond-ags-k-vs1#.WAZ5D_krKUk
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/new-additions/2-12ct-old-european-cut-diamond-gia-l-vs2#.WAZ5L_krKUk
OMC:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/79ct-old-mine-cut-diamond-gia-j-vs1#.WAZ4evkrKUk
Antique Cushion:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/new-additions/2-27ct-antique-cushion-cut-diamond-gia-j-vvs2#.WAZ5NPkrKUk

 

[ChristineRose]

The term "Old Cut" is poorly defined. ac117 is taking it to mean "Old European Cut," which is itself a term thrown at a large range of diamonds. But there have been times in history when very shallow diamonds were in vogue, and this ring looks to me like it might be from that period.

One way of looking at it is that is cut well, but to a different aesthetic. Of course they didn't have the tools to make any stones be truly well cut to today's standards (aesthetics aside).

 

[Neegan]

The faceting of the stone. Take a look at Jewels by Grace and look through pictures of OECs, OMCs, antique cushions - they all have larger, bubbly or blocky facets. Even transitional cuts where you could start to see the 'arrows' like modern round brilliants have chunky arrows/facets.
Poorly cut MRB:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/1-59ct-round-brilliant-diamond-ring-gia-j-si1#.WAZ4fvkrKUk
Trasnitional:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/1-46ct-transitional-cut-diamond-gia-s-t-vs1#.WAZ43vkrKUk
OEC:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/new-additions/1-72ct-old-european-cut-diamond-ags-k-vs1#.WAZ5D_krKUk
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/new-additions/2-12ct-old-european-cut-diamond-gia-l-vs2#.WAZ5L_krKUk
OMC:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/79ct-old-mine-cut-diamond-gia-j-vs1#.WAZ4evkrKUk
Antique Cushion:
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/new-additions/2-27ct-antique-cushion-cut-diamond-gia-j-vvs2#.WAZ5NPkrKUk

Yep, can totally see what you are saying! Thanks for all the information!

Really thought this ring was the one......the search continues.....again........staring to feel like I need a part in LOrd of the RIngs!

 

[Neegan]

This are 2 other rings ....any advice will be very welcome.

Ring 1

In platinum
1.05 carat old round cut.
Colour is J/K
Clarity is S1


Ring 2
In 18ct quite gold
1.3carat (says this is exact) old cut
Colour is K-L
Clarity is VS1

Both are a similar price to the first ring.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ringo865]

Can you get closer straight on shots of ring 2?

ETA: and possibly a profile view if ring 1?

 

[kenny]

This are 2 other rings ....any advice will be very welcome.

Variation of 2 or 3 color and clarity grades (that you or I may not even notice) can half or double the value.
That's why I'd NEVER consider buying a diamond that does not have a grading report from a legit lab like GIA or AGS.

Without a report you are gambling, and the when gambling the odds are ALWAYS with the house, aka the seller.
IOW you LOSE!

Please stop considering buying a diamond without a report from a legitimate lab.

 

[MollyMalone]

Variation of color and clarity grades not noticeable to you or I can half or double the price.

Hence I'd NEVER NEVER! consider buying a diamond that didn't get a grading report from a legit lab like GIA or AGS. [boldface added]

Without said report you are gambling, and the when gambling the odds are ALWAYS with the house.

kenny, Neegan is in the UK where there is neither a GIA nor AGS lab. Even here in the States, it's not unusual for vintage/antique rings -- especially ones that are not very expensive (relatively speaking) -- to not be accompanied by a GIA/AGS report because a precise clarity and color grading report from either lab requires dismantling the ring so the stone(s) can be graded loose. AGS now offers a Mounted Diamond Evaluation Report, but
* AGS will not even do an estimate of weight
* their color grading of mounted diamonds spans 2 color grades (what they call a split grade), and
* they will only give a precise clarity grade if (a) the mounting permits them to conclude that (b) the clarity is a particular grade within the lower, SI1 to I3 end of the spectrum.
https://www.americangemsociety.org/en/diamond-trade-mounted-diamond-evaluation-report



Take a look at the many vintage and antique rings that well respected Jewels by Grace offers with the Qualitative Pre-Sale Reports prepared by David Atlas (PS Trade member Old Miner & an independent appraiser not on her staff) & you'll see that he too typically describes the stone(s) as spanning 2 color grades and sometimes 2 clarity grades, e.g.,
http://jewelsbygrace.smugmug.com/Vintage-and-Antique-Rings/139ct-Antique-Cushion-Diamond/i-W7sWBSb/A
https://jewelsbygrace.smugmug.com/Vintage-and-Antique-Rings/102ct-Transitional-Cut-Diamond/i-nrtKxvd/A

Similarly, David Wolf's (Just Appraisers in NYC) appraisal of my great-grandmother's ring describes the stones as being within a 2-grade color span (with the appraisal report noting that assessment was done using his GIA-certified master diamond set) because I didn't wish him to pry out even the center stone so it could be graded by GIA/AGS in the proper, face-down position. David further reported, among other things, that the center diamond appeared to be VS2, but owing to its particular bezel setting, he could not ascertain whether there are any concealed flaws.

So I'd be interested in learning from Neil (denverappraiser) if he gives precise color and/or clarity grades to mounted diamonds.

 

[kenny]

Variation of color and clarity grades not noticeable to you or I can half or double the price.

Hence I'd NEVER NEVER! consider buying a diamond that didn't get a grading report from a legit lab like GIA or AGS. [boldface added]

Without said report you are gambling, and the when gambling the odds are ALWAYS with the house.

kenny, Neegan is in the UK where there is neither a GIA nor AGS lab.

I know that.
I stand by my post.

 

[Snowdrop13]

Neegan, I agree with all the advice given and personally would not buy a ring without more of a guarantee about what I was buying. It is difficult finding suitable sources in the UK, that's very true and usually I'd advise buying from one of the US Pricescope vendors such as Jewels by Grace. However, the exchange rate is now against us in a big way and doesn't look like moving soon, I've put a couple of projects on hold for that very reason.

Do the rings above have a decent return period? Could you buy one and have it appraised yourself locally? Look at lots of threads on here and see what makes a beautiful old cut. I wish you luck in your search!