A diamond disagreement, what''s the solution?

[perry]

I am not sure I have anything directly to say on the issue...

However, it has been a tough year or so on me as my parents are declining and I have struggled to do as much as I reasonably can. Tough situation - and tough on me too...

At this point we (the kids) have largly adopted a minimalist stratagy - we provide minimal aid while allowing the parents to feel they have some independence.

I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do. There are probably no "great" answeres. Remember too - that you will live with your resonses to the situation longer than your parents will.

Lots of issues involved here. A lot more than just a ring and money.

I wish you the best.

Perry

 

[diamondfan]

Well, of course there are other deeper things here, but the simple issue is the long term care of two elderly people. They have money saved and it should go towards that when it is needed. I am sure though a nice diamond would make her happy, I am sure that being in a safe and clean environment that is not going to bankrupt her grown children is also important to her. Maybe after a long life not getting the material things she wanted, she is focusing on the diamond, but honestly, it is risky to give her something like that...it could be misplaced or stolen...maybe she would understand if someone gently explains these realities to her...or, hope she forgets all about it!

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 12/27/2006 10:17:15 PM
Author: perry
I am not sure I have anything directly to say on the issue...

However, it has been a tough year or so on me as my parents are declining and I have struggled to do as much as I reasonably can. Tough situation - and tough on me too...

At this point we (the kids) have largly adopted a minimalist stratagy - we provide minimal aid while allowing the parents to feel they have some independence.

I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do. There are probably no ''great'' answeres. Remember too - that you will live with your resonses to the situation longer than your parents will.

Lots of issues involved here. A lot more than just a ring and money.

I wish you the best.

Perry

Perry,

No decision needs to be made as my grandfather has said no and that''s the final ruling, I just thought it was interesting to discuss and didn''t want to present a hypthothetical situation that was obviously real. I would never tell my grandparents what I think, it''s not my place.

I am sorry for your struggles and can relate. My husband is the only living family member besides his mother, who has Alzheimer''s and requires a lot of care, she lives a facility but we visit daily and handle all of her finances. It''s very draining and difficult at times.

Thanks for you heartfelt response. My thoughts are prayers are with you as it is such a difficult position to be in.

 

[kenny]

It is their own business how they spend their money.
I am surprised this much info has leaked out already about their finances.

She may be thinking, "I''m old, this is my last chance to enjoy something I''ve always wanted."
Nobody has the right to deny her that, except maybe the husband if their finances are combined.

That said if I knew they bought such luxuries and later needed money for necessities I''d be less likely to help out than if they had lived more responsibly.

Families are the most complex things on the planet.

 

[diamondfan]

I agree it is someone''s business until it becomes their families responsibility after the fact.

If they need to be thinking about their care and comfort during their last years, I think that should be more important. If they had endless funds, it would be moot, but they do not. And the costs for two people in this scenario will be extremely high. There might also be a lot of unknown costs. If their lack of money later on was going to become my problem and put a burden on MY family I feel I would have the right to point out some facts. I have seen families bankrupted by these things. A friend of mine was married and the father was in poor health. He never went to get a check up for health coverage and by the time he did he was ill and they would not cover him. My friend and her hubby took on the costs, because the mother and siblings could not supposedly do it. When he died, the mother promised she would sell the home they lived in which was too big for her and give back to my friend and her hubby the few hundred thousand dollars they had spent on the father''s care. She sold the house, and decided to spend the money elsewhere. My friend and hubby would never have let his dad suffer, but they were not in a position to absorb all these costs. It ended up they had to declare personal bankruptcy. It turned out the mom could have taken a home equity loan in the house which was all paid for, and covered the expenses while her husband was alive, but she did not feel like it and instead burdened her son...so my only point is while it is someone''s business how they spend, there are also factors to be considered and spending money on a diamond that is earmarked for your twilight years care, knowing that if YOU don''t have it someone else will have to come up with the funds to care for you, well, I think that is a bit selfish myself.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 12/27/2006 11:14:29 PM
Author: kenny
It is their own business how they spend their money.
I am surprised this much info has leaked out already about their finances.

She may be thinking, ''I''m old, this is my last chance to enjoy something I''ve always wanted.''
Nobody has the right to deny her that, except maybe the husband if their finances are combined.

That said if I knew they bought such luxuries and later needed money for necessities I''d be less likely to help out than if they had lived more responsibly.

Families are the most complex things on the planet.

My mom knows the specifics of their finances because she takes care of them, which includes paying their bills and she is the executor of their will. She gave us general info (that my grandparents have shared with us in the past) as part of the scenario, she did not divulge details, just that they could afford to live in a care facility for some time on what they have saved.

That is probably exactly what she is thinking and I can understand it but it might not be the best choice.

And families are extremely complex, but again, I just thought iwas was an interesting scenario, none of what has been said has been repeated to them nor does it matter as she''s not getting the ring.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 12/28/2006 10:52:37 AM
Author: diamondfan
I agree it is someone''s business until it becomes their families responsibility after the fact.

If they need to be thinking about their care and comfort during their last years, I think that should be more important. If they had endless funds, it would be moot, but they do not. And the costs for two people in this scenario will be extremely high. There might also be a lot of unknown costs. If their lack of money later on was going to become my problem and put a burden on MY family I feel I would have the right to point out some facts. I have seen families bankrupted by these things. A friend of mine was married and the father was in poor health. He never went to get a check up for health coverage and by the time he did he was ill and they would not cover him. My friend and her hubby took on the costs, because the mother and siblings could not supposedly do it. When he died, the mother promised she would sell the home they lived in which was too big for her and give back to my friend and her hubby the few hundred thousand dollars they had spent on the father''s care. She sold the house, and decided to spend the money elsewhere. My friend and hubby would never have let his dad suffer, but they were not in a position to absorb all these costs. It ended up they had to declare personal bankruptcy. It turned out the mom could have taken a home equity loan in the house which was all paid for, and covered the expenses while her husband was alive, but she did not feel like it and instead burdened her son...so my only point is while it is someone''s business how they spend, there are also factors to be considered and spending money on a diamond that is earmarked for your twilight years care, knowing that if YOU don''t have it someone else will have to come up with the funds to care for you, well, I think that is a bit selfish myself.

It would be selfish if they put themselves in a position of need (and there''s no way to determine whether or not that will be the case) and they are both prettty selfish to begin with. It is my mom''s business as she has been deemed their primary care giver and they expect it of her. She is respectful enough of their need for space to keep her mouth shut, no matter what she thinks about what they do, because they are still adults. She''s in a very difficult spot!

 

[diamondfan]

I can imagine! It sort of becomes the child is the parent now...dealing with aging and ill people is tough, I am sure. She wants them to be comfortable and well cared for (and she is personally doing it all now) but there are also some realities to consider. It is a tough spot for her to be in. Especially when Alzheimer''s or diminished mental capacity is at work, because the person is less likely to be reasonable about things, and they cannot help it. I admire your mom, taking this on is quite a lot, and though we all want to think we will be able to help and care for aging parents when the time comes, the actual doing it is very different!

 

[oldminer]

Why not suggest they buy you a 2 carat diamond as part of your future inheritance. Every time you put it on you promise to think good thoughts about them and will do so for decades to come. You will tell everyone how wonderfully they treated you to this little gift before they passed away and that it was very important to them to see someone really enjoy their gift. Whenever they see you they can admire it and make a fuss over you and the diamond. It will do them a world of good to know they made someone happy and it will give you some good things to talk about instead of the usual medical stuff.

Besides, if the need arises, you can sell the diamond for whatever it will bring and spend it on them. A few thousand more or less will not make a nursing home much less costly...... You can save some inheritance tax if your state has one.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 12/28/2006 11:46:28 AM
Author: oldminer
Why not suggest they buy you a 2 carat diamond as part of your future inheritance. Every time you put it on you promise to think good thoughts about them and will do so for decades to come. You will tell everyone how wonderfully they treated you to this little gift before they passed away and that it was very important to them to see someone really enjoy their gift. Whenever they see you they can admire it and make a fuss over you and the diamond. It will do them a world of good to know they made someone happy and it will give you some good things to talk about instead of the usual medical stuff.

Besides, if the need arises, you can sell the diamond for whatever it will bring and spend it on them. A few thousand more or less will not make a nursing home much less costly...... You can save some inheritance tax if your state has one.

OM,

If only I could convince them of such a fantastic solution! I just don''t think they''d buy into it though. They are selfish ol'' folks who have never thought much of their grandchildren, me included!

 

[fire&ice]

I think there is a tender balance between spending your hard earned money on something that gives you pleasure & planning for your future. Yes, those facilities are VERY expensive, especially if you need immediate skilled care (the good ones run over $300.00 per day). But, the diamond could be looked at as an asset - not fully liquid or full retail price - but none the less - an asset that could be sold.

Just been through something similar with planning for an elder''s long term care. No "luxury purchase" was being thought about - but the family did argue about allocating the money - i.e. paying for a sitter. Believe it or not one family member was against paying for more comfort because it would reduce the inheritance.

I''m kinda of the mind - spend the money (within reason) making your life as comfortable & happy as possible. If that means a 2 carat diamond, then so be it.

 

[swingirl]

Get the CZ and make an old woman happy.

 

[partgypsy]

Health care in the later years is very costly. My husband''s grandmother elected to stay in her house and pay for her home health care. She passed away this month. My father in law mentioned care for the last 10 years of her life cost 750K.

Maybe you can buy her a nice cz ring from you, your sis, and your mom, and while not lying say something like we wanted to get you something nice for you to enjoy, etc and if she asked if it was real say yes (real stone, not real diamond)

But ultimately, unless they are not considered competent, what they decide to do with their money, foolish or not, is their concern, not ours.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 12/28/2006 12:01:24 PM
Author: fire&ice
I think there is a tender balance between spending your hard earned money on something that gives you pleasure & planning for your future. Yes, those facilities are VERY expensive, especially if you need immediate skilled care (the good ones run over $300.00 per day). But, the diamond could be looked at as an asset - not fully liquid or full retail price - but none the less - an asset that could be sold.

Just been through something similar with planning for an elder''s long term care. No ''luxury purchase'' was being thought about - but the family did argue about allocating the money - i.e. paying for a sitter. Believe it or not one family member was against paying for more comfort because it would reduce the inheritance.

I''m kinda of the mind - spend the money (within reason) making your life as comfortable & happy as possible. If that means a 2 carat diamond, then so be it.

F&I,

This is the reason my mom feels the way she does. They aren''t going to live forever and she sees no reason not to splurge a bit (not extravegantly, just some) and she knows they could get her a not so great stone for an affordable price (like the examples Ira posted) so why not?

 

[colorkitty]

You said grandpa isn''t willing to budge, but if he were, I''d recommend a low clarity and low color diamond. It would probably make her happy and wouldn''t be pulling a fast one on her. Really, I don''t think this is about a diamond. You said grandpa''s been stingy with her and I think this is a chance for her to "stick" it to him. It sounds like bitterness mixed in with a loss of perception.

Interesting discussion.

 

[diamondfan]

Well, I might argue that someone in the initial stages of Alzheimer''s is not fully competent, and since Kim''s mom is in charge of their finances, she does have some rights since she knows the consequences that foolhardy expenditures might have down the line. What about a moissanite type of thing? Or a really stunning colored stone, huge and set nicely? But that still does not mitigate the issue of it being stolen, which is not a pleasant thing either...

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 12/28/2006 7:17:49 PM
Author: colorkitty
You said grandpa isn''t willing to budge, but if he were, I''d recommend a low clarity and low color diamond. It would probably make her happy and wouldn''t be pulling a fast one on her. Really, I don''t think this is about a diamond. You said grandpa''s been stingy with her and I think this is a chance for her to ''stick'' it to him. It sounds like bitterness mixed in with a loss of perception.

Interesting discussion.

He''s absolutely not budging and what he says goes so there won''t be a ring, I just thought it was an interesting topic.

She could be bitter; she has a beautiful watch face and she wanted a new band after getting it fixed and he told her no for the same reason as he vetoed the stone, she''s too old. I am sure it''s loss of perception as well, she hasn''t shopped for a stone in forever and is pretty out of touch in regards to cost.

Diamond is correct, my mom handles their finances, but she doesn''t make financial decisions for them, she just handles transactions (writing checks, going to the bank, making purchases that they request for them), but she never tells them what she thinks about how they spend, she doesn''t feel it''s her place (and they don''t spend much they mostly sit around their apt. doing nothing, which gives her plenty of time to dream about diamonds).

 

[fire&ice]

The crux in all of this is not having a crystal ball to determine how long life will be. In my instance, we were planning for a long protractive skilled care situation. We didn''t skimp because all of us (except the one with the "inheritance" issue) were going to pony up to keep her comfortable. We decided to spend the money on the sitter, have her hair done in house, etc. I am glad we did as she only lived a couple of months.

So, I guess that is where I am coming from. Ces''t the vie. LIFE can be very SHORT. In hind sight, if she wanted a 2 carat diamond - she should have bought it.

 

[TCBug]

Fire & Ice --

I totally agree with you that nobody knows how long life is and that we should enjoy it. But that''s exactly why I disagree with your opinion on this one.

My own mom is 81, in great health, lives on her own in another state, and is of sound of mind. If she wanted a 2 ct diamond, I might simply help her pick it out. (She''s a widow, so hubby wouldn''t be helping.) On the other hand, I''m the jewelry hound, not her. If she suddenly wanted a 2 ct diamond to make things "even" with someone who had medical problems, I would assume that something was amiss. Actually, if she suddenly wanted expensive jewelry, I would KNOW something was very wrong. That would be me at 87 for sure. . .but not mom at 81!

I have my mom''s healthcare and financial POA (and have since I was 18; am now 41). I don''t make her decisions or even review them. Heck, I don''t even pay her bills. BUT if/when the time comes that she starts doing things (1) out of character; or (2) that impair her financial ability to care for herself -- yes, I will step in.

Finally, to all of you who haven''t done the "nursing home/assisted living" thing: I represented some of these facilities as an attorney (some good; some bad). They are VERY expensive. The staff to resident ratio isn''t always the best. Your loved ones are not lying when they say that even clothing is stolen.

More importantly, the meals, activities, etc. planned don''t always happen the way they say. LOOK INTO THE FACILITY. CALL your state''s OMBUDSMAN. Go to the facility WITHOUT an appointment, at odd times of day. ASK TO SEE THE FACILITY''s last 3 years of STATE SURVEYS. Once you see those surveys, look at how "important" the violations are. I have literally seen a violation for beets running into cottage cheese and making an ugly stain on a plate. FINE -- BUT more importantly, if a urine stan is brown around the edges of a bed and dry inside -- it means nobody has come by lately. (Fresh urine -- often ok because a resident might have "just" had an accident. But OLD urine = bad and creates bedsores, i.e. decutibus ulcers.)

 

[diamondfan]

I think it is easy to look back and say, That diamond would have made her happy so she should have had it...and that is fine if the money is there for it, plus money to pay for care that could go on for years. I am sorry, but just because something would make someone happy does not entitle or in any mean they should or can have it...when having it puts other people in potential financial jeopardy and sets her up to be a victim of theft if it is not locked up properly. If someone in the family had the money and felt like being generous, and this in no way impacted the ability to pay the bills at a care facility, fine...but just because someone wants something does not make it reasonable for them to have it. That is a sad reality but nonetheless it is valid. Again, at her age and with Alzheimer''s she may not even really want it, but is just fixated on it and might forget about it next week. I can almost assure you most care facilities assume no responsibility for valuables on their property, which stinks, but why and how would they want to take THAT on, people bringing expensive jewels that are bound to be lost or stolen...seems like a needless headache to me...