A Consumer''s Guide: How to get everything you need and nothing you do not . . .

[diamond_buyer_2004]

I hope this will start a good thread:

After 3 months of researching diamonds (both on paper and in person) it is my conclusion that you will not be able to buy a noticeably better diamond, no matter how much you spend, if you buy a diamond with these qualities:

1) Cut:
a) AGS 000 (cut, polish, symmetry)
b) HCA Score: 0.5 - 1.5
c) AGA: 1A-B
d) H&A

2) Color: F

I do not care what any one else has said on this forum, you can tell the difference between F and G diamonds . . . and guys remember she is going to look at this thing every day for the next ~60 years . . . she will see the color. Plus, what''s the point of buying a diamond if it’s not white?

3) Clarity: VS2

Whereas I can see the difference between F and G, I cannot see any difference between VS2 and IF, so what''s the point?

In my opinion, it seems buying a diamond of this quality is like buying a digital camera that does not give you the resolution of real film (here real film represents a D IF diamond with the above cut standards), but has a high enough resolution to make the resulting pictures from the two cameras identical to the human eye. (Yes, I am an engineer)

Any Comments??

 

[baltneu]

"See the color" , do you mean the "sparkle". I think even the pros on this site have trouble with color with the naked eye, which is what she will see every day. So why not buy H or I?

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 3/9/2004 5:19:28 PM diamond_buyer_2004 wrote:

I hope this will start a good thread:

After 3 months of researching diamonds (both on paper and in person) it is my conclusion that you will not be able to buy a noticeably better diamond, no matter how much you spend, if you buy a diamond with these qualities:

1) Cut:
a) AGS 000 (cut, polish, symmetry)
b) HCA Score: 0.5 - 1.5
c) AGA: 1A-B
d) H&A

2) Color: F

I do not care what any one else has said on this forum, you can tell the difference between F and G diamonds . . . and guys remember she is going to look at this thing every day for the next ~60 years . . . she will see the color. Plus, what's the point of buying a diamond if it’s not white?

3) Clarity: VS2

Whereas I can see the difference between F and G, I cannot see any difference between VS2 and IF, so what's the point?

In my opinion, it seems buying a diamond of this quality is like buying a digital camera that does not give you the resolution of real film (here real film represents a D IF diamond with the above cut standards), but has a high enough resolution to make the resulting pictures from the two cameras identical to the human eye. (Yes, I am an engineer)

Any Comments??
----------------

Color is subjective and varies from diamond to diamond. Depends on the quality of the make and the hue of the rough. I've been wearing, oggling, flashing, staring at, and enjoying a J color diamond for almost 2 months now. I am somewhat color sensitive. I don't like yellow diamonds. And and my J isn't yellow. It's fabulous.

I've owned a totally eye clean SI1. No one ever saw the 1 defining inclusion that brought the clarity grade.

There is no perfect color and clarity combination when it comes to buying diamonds. It's the right cut, combined with the right color, and inclusions that are not eye visible. That could be a D/IF. That could be a F/VS. That could be a J/SI. And it could be anything in between. Including a great I1.

 

[diamond_buyer_2004]

I have looked at an F, G, and H side by side, out from under the special lighting and readily been able to see the color difference when you look at the stones from the side. I know people say "who cares if you can see color from the side . . . who looks at stones from the side?" . . . the answer in my mind is over ~60 years she will and you will to. My point is that I believe if you buy the biggest stone you can afford with the above qualities, you eliminate the chance that down the road you will wish that you will have bought something of higher quality.

To make another analogy buying a F VS2 with the cut I've described is like purchasing a BMW M3, although there are more expensive cars out there, there is no car that you can drive everyday that will provide more performance and luxury, where going lower is like buying a mustang, just as fast in a straight line, but it cannot corner and the leather does not compare.

 

[nyclooking]

just curious, then why not a D or E, rather than an F? On the side against a white background I can easily tell the difference between a D, E and F.

 

[Mara]

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On 3/9/2004 5:19:28 PM diamond_buyer_2004 wrote:











it is my conclusion that you will not be able to buy a noticeably better diamond, no matter how much you spend, if you buy a diamond with these qualities:

-------

You may want to amend those 'you's to 'I'. Because not everyone is going to agree with you. Everything is subjective. So please don't presume to know what others would want to buy.

I saw an E and a G side by side, unset, and saw NO DIFFERENCE. Your eyes may be better than mine.

No one grades diamonds on the hand. It just needs to be sparkly, look white, be well-cut and eye-visible inclusion free. People's definition of 'well-cut', 'eye-visible inclusion free' and 'look white' is always going to be different from someone else's.

So while YOU may not want to buy something under F VS2, I would gladly buy G SI with the same money for that F VS2 and take an extra trip with the additional funds.

 

[hoorray]

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On 3/9/2004 6:10:53 PM pqcollectibles wrote:

----------------
Color is subjective and varies from diamond to diamond. Depends on the quality of the make and the hue of the rough.
----------------

PQ -- I've been meaning to ask you...how do you know the hue of the rough that your stone came from?

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 3/9/2004 8:29:11 PM lop wrote:

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On 3/9/2004 6:10:53 PM pqcollectibles wrote:

----------------
Color is subjective and varies from diamond to diamond. Depends on the quality of the make and the hue of the rough.
----------------

PQ -- I've been meaning to ask you...how do you know the hue of the rough that your stone came from?
----------------

By looking at the diamond. I laid my ring on white paper and looked at the diamond thru the pavillion. The diamond has an oh so faint, steely blue tint to it.

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 3/9/2004 7:13:50 PM Mara wrote:

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On 3/9/2004 5:19:28 PM diamond_buyer_2004 wrote:






it is my conclusion that you will not be able to buy a noticeably better diamond, no matter how much you spend, if you buy a diamond with these qualities:

-------

You may want to amend those 'you's to 'I'. Because not everyone is going to agree with you. Everything is subjective. So please don't presume to know what others would want to buy.

I saw an E and a G side by side, unset, and saw NO DIFFERENCE. Your eyes may be better than mine.

No one grades diamonds on the hand. It just needs to be sparkly, look white, be well-cut and eye-visible inclusion free. People's definition of 'well-cut', 'eye-visible inclusion free' and 'look white' is always going to be different from someone else's.

So while YOU may not want to buy something under F VS2, I would gladly buy G SI with the same money for that F VS2 and take an extra trip with the additional funds.

----------------

Agreed, Mara.

Mara well knows the decision process I went thru in selecting this J colored diamond. Brian Gavin was very jazzed about this diamond. Brian said this diamond would create a huge, fun, fabulous ring for me set in platinum and he was absolutely correct. If I hadn't listened to Brian, I would have a smaller, higher colored diamond that would have cost more money.

My diamond sparkles like mad. Faces up white white white. The view thru the side is clear and clean looking. It's an absolutely gorgeous diamond. Lots of bang for much less bucks.

 

[caratgirl]

Can't argue with an F VS2 being very nice...it so happens I have one

, and got a smaller size than I could have if I had gotten a different color and clarity, which was my preference. I love having it be very white even in lighting where my other stone, a J color shows a bit of a darker color. Color and clarity are very personal choices, and each person rationalizes their own choice. If I had wanted to spend more money, I would have gone D or E VS1 instead of larger.

 

[diamond_buyer_2004]

"just curious, then why not a D or E, rather than an F? On the side against a white background I can easily tell the difference between a D, E and F."

Because in real life she will never be laying her F against a white background, so she will never see the difference between an D and an F . . .

However, in real life she will wear it in different lighting conditions where you will notice a difference between an F and a J as noted above; "I love having it be very white even in lighting where my other stone, a J color shows a bit of a darker color."

The point is with an F VS2 you/I/she will never wish that I had bought something of a higher quality.

 

[fire&ice]

<
The point is with an F VS2 you/I/she will never wish that I had bought something of a higher quality.

----------------[/quote]


Well, we bought an F/VVS diamond. I wished I had bought something larger of lower quality. I did years later w/ much more experience behind me.

 

[diamond_buyer_2004]

"Well, we bought an F/VVS diamond. I wished I had bought something larger of lower quality. I did years later w/ much more experience behind me."

. . . I not sure whether you are agreeing with me or arguing against me, but you did prove my point; an F VS2 would have gotten you a bigger stone for the same money, and you would not be able to tell the difference between the two with your naked eye (assuming equal cut).

 

[valeria101]

This seemed funny:

"What's the point of buying a diamond if it is not white? "

Well, what's the point of buying a diamond that you do not feel good about?

Surely most people would be able to distinguish color grades - given the right 'grading' environment and some guidance, grading is done by humans, after all. If one believes chasing the whitest grade makes sense, than it does and nothing else should matter. Why not, in the end?

All I see here is a very well researched buying decision

 

[aljdewey]

Sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree with you.




I cannot contest what you say you see.....if you say you can see the diff between F & G, then I guess you can (although I'd find it improbable as nearly every expert agrees that people cannot see a difference of only one color grade).




I'd personally wonder if you could see the difference if you didn't KNOW which was the F and which was the G......while set and on the hand. I'd tend to doubt it. I honestly think it's a mental difference to you.....which is fine. We all have them.




Having said that, I chose an H, SI2 diamond. It's completely eyeclean, and despite spending HOURS gazing into it, I cannot find the inclusions unaided and struggle to find them with my loupe either.




My diamond also looks white face up, and it looks absent of color when I look at it through the side, too. It also looks HUGE because I was able to get a 1.24 carat instead of a .90 ct.




As Mara noted, there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution to diamond buying. It depends on the sensitivities of the wearer and what's important to each. I agree with her....you should change all the "you"s to "I"s.

 

[nyclooking]

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On 3/10/2004 10:13:23 AM diamond_buyer_2004 wrote:


Because in real life she will never be laying her F against a white background, so she will never see the difference between an D and an F . . .

However, in real life she will wear it in different lighting conditions where you will notice a difference between an F and a J as noted above; 'I love having it be very white even in lighting where my other stone, a J color shows a bit of a darker color.'

The point is with an F VS2 you/I/she will never wish that I had bought something of a higher quality.



----------------

ah, so you're saying that there's no difference between a D and a F in any lighting condition but there will be one between an F and a G? interesting -- can others weigh in? I'm curious to know the answer. Also, didn't you say a few posts above that your basis for comparing color is against white background on the side? I thought you said that.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 3/10/2004 10:51:53 AM diamond_buyer_2004 wrote:

'Well, we bought an F/VVS diamond. I wished I had bought something larger of lower quality. I did years later w/ much more experience behind me.'

. . . I not sure whether you are agreeing with me or arguing against me, but you did prove my point; an F VS2 would have gotten you a bigger stone for the same money, and you would not be able to tell the difference between the two with your naked eye (assuming equal cut). ----------------

I would have gone much larger w/ a G/H/I VS2 or SI1 stone. We overbought at both color & clarity levels.

So, no I don't agree that your parameters are correct for me.

 

[diamond_buyer_2004]

nyc,
what I said above was:
"I have looked at an F, G, and H side by side, out from under the special lighting and readily been able to see the color difference when you look at the stones from the side."

No white paper was needed.

 

[Nicrez]

In the end, yes it's about having something that pleases you. Note that some people WILL NEVER be happy with what they have, and for that reason, they are excluded...I would say that my stone could not be any better for me, and it's an E VVS2. Why? I notice color like mad, and it bothers me. Honestly. So I needed a higher color. It could have been a VS2, but somehow the fact that it's a VVS2 makes me happy to know my lovely stone is just slightly included. I adore it! There are two tiny tiny pinpoints, but an extra facet, so that made it VVS2...I don't care! Plus my honey and I did the search together and it's OUR stone! I wasn't instant about size (at THIS age), so we paid a bit more, and got a smaller size than we were looking, but I truly am impressed with it's color, clarity and cut FAR more than it's size, and I LOVE IT!!

Now my friend has a BIG rock, and it's SI1...She adores hers...That's what it's all about, right?

 

[nyclooking]

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On 3/10/2004 11:00:26 AM diamond_buyer_2004 wrote:

nyc,
what I said above was:
'I have looked at an F, G, and H side by side, out from under the special lighting and readily been able to see the color difference when you look at the stones from the side.'

No white paper was needed.----------------

ah, so can can tell the difference between an F, G and a H, but not the difference between a D, E or F? I ask only because I think I can and I'm about to plop down the dough for a D, but I want to make sure it's not all in my head.

 

[diamond_buyer_2004]

Exactly, I could not see D-F, but I could see F-H.

 

[Patty]

nyclooking, It all depend upon YOUR eye. Most people think an E, F, or G stone is VERY white. Some can tell a difference between a D and an E, but not many. Usually one color grade difference is very hard to detect. I don't think most people will be able to tell a difference between a D and an F in any light conditions. But like I said, it depends upon YOUR eye...some people are very color sensitive. Most are not.

 

[Nicrez]

NYC, if they are round stones that are well cut, and they are Ds, Es, Fs right next to each other you have one heck of a set of eyes on ya!




In shaped stones, like pears, marquis, princess, radiants, emerald, etc...its MUCH easier to tell color. I don't even really need "prpoper light or white paper" I serisouly can look at it and determine it's color with no comparison. But that's why I needed an E...even the F to my eyes showed color... it is got a round stone, I would easily have gone for a well cut H, maybe even a J!




But if the color bothers you, I say do what makes you happy as long as you have the dispensable $$ and can sacrifice in size or clarity...?

 

[nyclooking]

heehee. thanks guys. as you can imagine it's not an easy process.

 

[drdeano]

DiamondBuyer:

Maybe an illustration will help?

This image is of course not to scale, but was created using exact mm, so the proportions will be correct. The color was added using D colorless Z yellow which is 23 units, 100/23 = 4.35% yellow per grade lower than D. I am sure this is not EXACT, but it's simplified and shows a side by side.

Image 1: .90 ct/6.25mm diameter/ F color
Image 2: 1 ct/6.5mm diameter/ D color
Image 3: 1.25 ct/ 6.95 diameter/ J color

This gives you an idea. Depending on your REAL thresholds for size and color, these will vary per individual. I personally am VERY color sensitive. Of course with no reference, this is diminished..but I think we could assume we are talking about COMPARING here. I would argue that without a comparison, one could not tell the difference between a .90 ct and a 1.1 ct. You put them side by side and then you probably could.

I've found this site to be more size conscious, which is absolutely acceptable to me. I think it fair to mention that there are people (like myself) that place higher value on color than others...which again, should be acceptable. YOU are making the purchase decision, only YOU can determine what makes you happy.

Good luck!

DrD

 

[valeria101]

Actually, I agree that F is a nice buy, 'cause D and F are closer together than their 'colorless' group is to the next grades... as at least some evidence would suggest (see below).


There are several details to add here:
- the body color of diamonds is much harder to see than is the color of a patch of screen - the two objects have very different presence and properties (different in relevant ways, that is).

- on my poor ol' monitor, your "J" simmulation looks similar to my "mental image" of a M diamond, if I could posibly 'flatten' that sparkly prism like that or draw and "average" of all the nuances a diamond throws at you. The other patch looks Y-Z-ish...

The color grades are not even "evenly distributed" in terms of color density - they weren't meant to be, it seems. There is at least one detailed study of this online (WWW ). Figure 8 is what I am refering to... but the whole thing is a nice read

 

[drdeano]

Valeria:

I agree that the color example I made was EXTREMELY rudimentary. I don't think one could get a "true" sense of color without viewing master stones IN PERSON in various lighting conditions. And you're right, a monitor is HORRIBLE for showing variants in color density! Some monitors will make it look REALLY dark, some you may not notice at all, and some will have a yellow tint that is supposed to be white! hehe

That was an interesting article. I'd be interested also in reading some psychological studies that test the variation in sensation thresholds in individuals. We may all be human, but from what I remember of Psych 101 is that our brains all perceive things differently. Thus, some people being able to see HUGE variation in color differences, where someone else may not be able to see the difference between a D and M stone BUT can smell a flower budding from across a football field.

Either way, the industry has done much to try to eliminate many of the perception variables and equate it all to numbers so we can feel like we are making a more informed decision. With all the gadgetry, advice and opinion.. the only REAL factor that should matter is if it looks good to YOU (the one buying it, or the recipient) Makes me wonder how upset women who received E-Rings 100 years ago must have been if she wasn't able to get her Sarin report!!

DrD

 

[valeria101]

Well, if physics says that one thing is yellow-er than the other, maybe someone could say they are 'the same', but I could hardly imagine that even the worst eyesight would make one believe the more colored object is the whiter! So, maybe a more 'color tolerant' diamond seeker would lump more grades into HIS perception of 'colorless' (say the nest grade, G), but hardly anyone would say G is 'whiter' than D. Once in settings, these grades are harder to tell apart... and it depends on the setting too !

But this is not what I worry about...

The grading and the 'rules' for diamond appreciation basically come from the same source... the same 'industry' took care to define diamond grades, and gently persuade buyers that their personal appreciation of diamonds MUST obey the rules of grading and pricing, lest they should be "wrong".

So? Your comment could be ever more meaningful than intended: diamonds are surely not 'seen with the eyes' only. That was tons of adds ago !

In the meantime, I have to sympathize with my friends and colleagues who prefer their gems as colorless as possible: I would probably never understand why, as a matter of fact.

 

[pqcollectibles]

My F earring and my J ring. The J is 3X the size of the F in carat weight.

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 3/10/2004 1:03:56 PM valeria101 wrote:

Well, if physics says that one thing is yellow-er than the other, maybe someone could say they are 'the same', but I could hardly imagine that even the worst eyesight would make one believe the more colored object is the whiter! So, maybe a more 'color tolerant' diamond seeker would lump more grades into HIS perception of 'colorless' (say the nest grade, G), but hardly anyone would say G is 'whiter' than D. Once in settings, these grades are harder to tell apart... and it depends on the setting too !

But this is not what I worry about...

The grading and the 'rules' for diamond appreciation basically come from the same source... the same 'industry' took care to define diamond grades, and gently persuade buyers that their personal appreciation of diamonds MUST obey the rules of grading and pricing, lest they should be 'wrong'.

So? Your comment could be ever more meaningful than intended: diamonds are surely not 'seen with the eyes' only. That was tons of adds ago !

In the meantime, I have to sympathize with my friends and colleagues who prefer their gems as colorless as possible: I would probably never understand why, as a matter of fact.

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Agreed, Val. Especially the part about the advertising. Lots of people come here thinking they MUST have certain levels because it's been ingrained into them. It's mental and nothing more. I thought the graph was interesting that the middle of the 1 Sigma range fell right on K.

I agree that some people are more color sensitive. Nicrez openly admits she is. And, she got a Fancy shaped stone, hence the E color. If Nicrez had gone round instead, who knows??

I am fairly color sensitive. I pick up on yellows and browns in stones. It took a HUGE amount of trust for me to go with Brian Gavin's eye and step outside my mental comfort zone. Boy did it pay off big time!!