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E-Ring Help — Online vs In-Store

DeJoHe

Rough_Rock
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Oct 20, 2018
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First post here! I read through a lot of forum posts and you all are a knowledgeable bunch! Thanks in advance for any help in my search.

I’m shopping for an engagement ring and mostly have browsed online. I stopped by three stores in DC today (all local, no chains), and was a bit disappointed in the selection as well as the sales presentations. Each salesperson tried very hard to scare me out of purchasing a diamond online, claiming that it could appear cloudy and have other characteristics not captured in the GIA report. I’m skeptical of this for several reasons, but also understand that there are certain intangible elements that cannot be quantified in a lab report.

For example, I have found one stone online from a reputable vendor that seems priced too good to be true. It is a round 1.83 carat H-IF with strong blue flour and priced at $14k. Each in-store sales person today told me that this stone will not look good in person (even after showing them the GIA report) and that the price is too good to be true. They said the stone is likely cloudy and will not show well. They each played up the “low” color rating and the blue flour as huge negative elements.

So my questions for you all:
1) is H color really that bad? I’ve seen several H stones in person and they look fine.
2) is blue flour in an H color stone bad? I thought it could actually boost the whiteness from table view, but these salespeople say otherwise.
3) is it likely that this stone is cloudy or unclear?
4) not a single salesperson in-store offered to show me a GIA report for their stones, or offered to show me ASET or Ideal Scope images. When I asked if they had an ASET image, one of them offered me a loupe. Is this normal, or are they dodging the question?
5) should I stay away from online vendors, or be weary of their stones looking much different in person?

Thanks in advance for any and all help!
 

crbl999

Brilliant_Rock
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1. G or H color is a good value if you're not color sensitive and/or don't want to see a hint of yellow.
2. Fluor is not always bad. In some cases it can make a stone look hazy, cloudy, milky. Each one needs to be evaluated and checked for this. You may also find, especially in lower colors, that the stone will appear whiter in certain lighting environments.
3. See #2
4. Most stores don't have an ideal scope or ASET and may not know what it is.
5. If you know what to proportions to look for and request an ideal scope and/or ASET buying online from a trusted vendor will make your money go further.
 

foxinsox

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I would look at the interests of the people giving you advice. All the jewellers want to sell you their stock so it’s in their interests to denigrate the online option or the additional tools to help you make an informed decision like ASET, IS or even the basic grading paperwork. That would answer the question for me. Personally I would have no problems buying online based off imaging data like ASET or IS and photography from one of the many online vendors who give you all this information, thereby demonstrating that you can trust them. I would absolutely not buy from any of the B&M stores who seem to think you don’t need objective data to help you make your choice.
 

lovedogs

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Stores don't want consumers buying online, since the prices are always better, and it means they lose a sale. I certainly agree that you usually shouldn't buy a stone "sight unseen", because it's true that not everything can be "seen" via a lab report. However, if you have lurked here for a while you'll see that our trusted vendors (e.g. WF, HPD, JA, BGD, IDJ, etc) all have images, videos, etc. And we always recommend light performance images like ASET/IS.

I would never buy a stone in person after seeing what a huge difference it makes to have all the info we have access to via online shopping (and having access to super ideal vendors, etc). There's just no comparison with in-person shopping at your average jeweler. Of course there are exceptions (like if you can go visit WF, HPD, or IDJ in person), but most jewelers just don't have access to the inventory or technology to be competitive.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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I'll echo @crbl999's comments.

I will also add I bought my fiancee a H VS2 w/ medium blue fluor from BGD in Houston, TX. I don't live there so had to do it online. Granted they are a super ideal vendor, but the experience was top notch, customer service superb and pricing very fair. Nothing local could touch them IMO.

My fiancee turned out to be one of the very color sensitive people that was mentioned so she does see tint in the stone, but it doesn't bother her (color sensitive, but color tolerant). My intentions was to give her a colorless stone so if I had to re-do the choice I would buy a better color but I do not think my particular situation is common.

Below are some pictures. You can make your own determinations.

Also, care to post the GIA cert of the stone you were looking at? While the local stores has biased opinions as they want you to buy from them, it is possible the proportions aren't complimentary. Reviewing the cert will allow us to confirm or deny that.

DKJPV_0629_WR-1.jpg

DKJPV_0629_WR-4.jpg

DKJPV_0629_WR-5.jpg

DKJPV_0629_WR-6.jpg

DKJPV_0629_WR-8.jpg

DKJPV_0629_WR-3.jpg

DKJPV_0629_WR-2.jpg
 

foxinsox

Ideal_Rock
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Oh and in answer to your questions:
1. No, H isn’t bad unless you’re fixated on having a completely colourless stone.
2. No strong blue isn’t bad but is discounted within the industry so this could result in you getting a small bargain.
3. Yes it could be hazy but the number of overblue stones that exhibit this is actually really low and often seems to relate to other coexisting clarity issues like clouds. Given it’s IF, you’re probably safe.
4. Sadly normal but doesn’t make it right. I would never buy from a store that didn’t support me being able to know as much about my purchase as possible and supply and all data/imaging necessary.
5. Hell no. Avoid the B&M who are trying to tell you that online is a rip off. Also run anything past us here, we’ve got no money riding on your choice so can actually be objective. Plus some of our prosumers are spectacular at finding great stones.
 

DeJoHe

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 20, 2018
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10
Thanks for the thoughtful and helpful replies! This all comports with my general feeling about everything, but it’s good to hear these opinions shared by others.

I’d love to hear some feedback on a couple stones I’m looking at. That would be a huge help.

Here’s the online ($14k) 1.83 xxx H-IF that I mentioned: GIA #3305090362

And a ($19k) 2.18 xxx H-SI2 I saw at local shop today: GIA #11824482

If anyone knows of any great stones within my general criteria, I’d love some help narrowing down my search. Here’s what I’m looking for in basic priority order:

Budget: max $20k for the diamond
Shape: RB
Size: 1.8+ carat
Cut: the best I can afford
Color: flexible, but the whiter the better for me!
Clarity: eye clean, but prefer cleaner

I have a bit of knowledge of diamonds from taking some classes many years ago, but I don’t know the market well so it’s tough for me to evaluate a great deal. I understand the rudiments, but didn’t anticipate this wide range of options at this price point! Frankly it’s a bit overwhelming and quite a big decision, as I want to get this right the first try.

Again, thanks for all the helpful responses—what a warm welcome!
 

rockysalamander

Ideal_Rock
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What are the angles? Crown, Pavillion, Table and depth.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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My fiancee turned out to be one of the very color sensitive people that was mentioned so she does see tint in the stone, but it doesn't bother her (color sensitive, but color tolerant). My intentions was to give her a colorless stone so if I had to re-do the choice I would buy a better color but I do not think my particular situation is common.

I'm going to be a pedant here :razz: but colours are not better or worse - they are higher or lower, more or less obvious, rarer or more common...

'Better' is an entirely subjective word ;)) and there are plenty of people on PS who prefer the warm vanilla tones of a K or L over the icy, possibly even CZ-looking, Ds and Es of this world!

We must be careful not to perpetuate the 'D is bestest!!' brainwashing of the masses that is practiced by those looking to maximise their profits! :))
 

DeJoHe

Rough_Rock
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Here are the angles of the 1.83 H-IF, in pic below. This one is online for $14k and GIA rated xxx. FC8081CC-DF30-4DC3-B3B4-34584819F21E.png
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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The HCA tool under the Tools tab at the top of the forum gives that stone a score of 3.9 - Very good - worth buying if the price is right.

Ideally you want stones with a score under 2 - that means the crown and pavilion angles work well together and should give a good performance in terms of light return.

This stone is 'steep/deep' (steep crown, deep pavilion) so you will see leakage under the table (because the angles don't work well with each other) and the stone will be smaller in diameter for its weight than 'Ideal' stones.


I have to go out now but others should be along quite quickly to help you find stones within your previously mentioned specs :))
If anyone knows of any great stones within my general criteria, I’d love some help narrowing down my search. Here’s what I’m looking for in basic priority order:

Budget: max $20k for the diamond
Shape: RB
Size: 1.8+ carat
Cut: the best I can afford
Color: flexible, but the whiter the better for me!
Clarity: eye clean, but prefer cleaner
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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I'm going to be a pedant here :razz: but colours are not better or worse - they are higher or lower, more or less obvious, rarer or more common...

'Better' is an entirely subjective word ;)) and there are plenty of people on PS who prefer the warm vanilla tones of a K or L over the icy, possibly even CZ-looking, Ds and Es of this world!

We must be careful not to perpetuate the 'D is bestest!!' brainwashing of the masses that is practiced by those looking to maximise their profits! :))

Great point. D is not always best but I do think the majority of people associate best as the least amount of color. However, there is certainly no hard and fast rule that says that is true. Also cultural values play into it as well. Not to mention just personal preference.

In our specific case, we both genuinely like D/E color but I am not as sensitive as she is. While I can occasionally see tint in the H it's normally from the side, at specific angles, etc. Most the time it looks very white to me.

On a side note, we were at a nice steak house on Friday night and our waitress nearly fainted when she saw my fiance's ring. Guess the sparkles caught her attention and then the brightness and finally she loved the setting style. I thought she might propose to me with my fiance's ring, lol. :lol: :lol:

Here are the angles of the 1.83 H-IF, in pic below. This one is online for $14k and GIA rated xxx. FC8081CC-DF30-4DC3-B3B4-34584819F21E.png

Good review by @OoohShiny. I might add the table of 57 is good. Overall depth of 62.3 is okay. Also I like the 75 LGFs as it will have fatter arrows.

It's the steep 35.5 crown and 41 pavilion causing the issues. You can sometimes push a 35.5 crown with a shallower 40.6 pavilion. Generally speaking we like to stay within these parameters:
  • 54-57 table
  • 60-62.4 depth
  • 34-35 crown (maybe 35.5 with 40.6 pavilion)
  • 40.6-40.9 pavilion (maybe 41 with 34 crown)
  • 75-80 lower girdle facets
We can fine tune from here but that is a good starting point.

I have to go out now but others should be along quite quickly to help you find stones within your previously mentioned specs :))

I've got a few things to do as well but will search when I'm done.
 

DeJoHe

Rough_Rock
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Oct 20, 2018
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10
Thanks for all the help everyone! From what I’ve read on here, whiteflash ACA and Brian Gavin seem to be safe bets in terms of superior cut quality. I will be taking a much closer look at those vendors :)

I checked out the GIA reports more closely for a couple of the stones I looked at locally, and put the dimensions into the HCA tool as well. I was shocked to find some pretty harsh characteristics that were completely omitted by the local salespeople. I was surprised that a sales person at perhaps the best-regarded local shop in DC completely neglected to tell me about a cavity in a $20k stone!

From reading your feedback above about the 1.83 xxx H-IF stone, you think I should stay away from it due to the 35.5 crown angle and 41 pavilion? The $14k price tag is very tempting, but if the performance won’t be good then it’s simply not worth it.

I’ll be on the lookout for any recs from you all, and will post a few more options I find on my own—I’d love some feedback, since you all seem to know a great deal more than I do.
 

AprilBaby

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Stick with all of us and you will get a diamond that will knock your socks off!
 

DeJoHe

Rough_Rock
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I found a few potential winners! I have emails out to each vendor requesting some supplementary information about eye-cleanliness and ASET and IS images (where not already provided).

Can you guys shed some light on these?

1.821 H-SI1 — $15,400
Depth % 61.3
Table % 56.7
Crown Angle 34.7
Star 52.0
Pavilion Angle 40.6
Crown % 15.0
Lower Girdle % 78.0

1.737 G-SI1 — $13,400
Depth % 61.2
Table % 54.7
Crown Angle 34.1
Star 49.0
Pavilion Angle 40.7
Crown % 15.3
Lower Girdle % 79.0

Finally, this one is not as high quality as the aforementioned examples (lower color score and not super ideal cut), but the size is impressive and it is a great price. HCA score puts it at 2.4, so pretty close to the target:

2.5 I-SI1 — $14,550
Table 55
Depth 62.6
L/W Ratio 1.00
Measurements 8.65x8.63x5.41mm
Crown Angle 36.5°
Pavilion Angle 40.6°
Girdle Med. - Sli. Thick
Girdle % 3.5

Let me know if anything jumps out as a red flag, or your general preferences and thoughts!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I found a few potential winners! I have emails out to each vendor requesting some supplementary information about eye-cleanliness and ASET and IS images (where not already provided).

Can you guys shed some light on these?

1.821 H-SI1 — $15,400
Depth % 61.3
Table % 56.7
Crown Angle 34.7
Star 52.0
Pavilion Angle 40.6
Crown % 15.0
Lower Girdle % 78.0

1.737 G-SI1 — $13,400
Depth % 61.2
Table % 54.7
Crown Angle 34.1
Star 49.0
Pavilion Angle 40.7
Crown % 15.3
Lower Girdle % 79.0

Finally, this one is not as high quality as the aforementioned examples (lower color score and not super ideal cut), but the size is impressive and it is a great price. HCA score puts it at 2.4, so pretty close to the target:

2.5 I-SI1 — $14,550
Table 55
Depth 62.6
L/W Ratio 1.00
Measurements 8.65x8.63x5.41mm
Crown Angle 36.5°
Pavilion Angle 40.6°
Girdle Med. - Sli. Thick
Girdle % 3.5

Let me know if anything jumps out as a red flag, or your general preferences and thoughts!


GIA certs would help, because with SI stones I would want to see the inclusion plots and video.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I feel like the first 2 vs. the last 1 is like apples to oranges. The first 2 are WF ACAs and are going to be amazing performers. The 3rd one is bigger, but the inclusion plot is much more potentially concerning (obviously I haven't seen it in person so I can't say for sure). Plus it isn't a super ideal, and won't perform as well. I would choose one of the first two for sure--especially bc WF has an amazing upgrade policy.
 

lovedogs

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sledge

Ideal_Rock
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The 36.5 crown is too steep on the 2.5ct stone. Also at 62.6 depth, it was cut for weight, not beauty. I'd pass on that one.

Also, just a heads up @lovedogs but when we have no cert and you see crowns of 34.1 and 34.7 it is a good indicator it's likely an AGS stone. GIA rounds and averages crowns to the nearest half degree. Assuming they didn't go all :confused2: when doing their rounding and averaging you'd think the GIA equivalates would read 34 and 34.5, respectively.

The BGD stone looks nice but I don't see the advantage personally. Lower color and more dollars for VS1 clarity, which is great but if you find an eye clean SI1 with WF, BGD or HPD I'd rather save the bucks and/or have better color personally.

So of the choices listed I'd lean towards the ACA stones. WF publishes ASET, idealscope and H&A images along with videos so a link to the actual stones would be helpful in further determining the better of the two.
 

david b

Shiny_Rock
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Online stores always win. They have huge diamond inventory to choose from, they show you magnified video of the diamond so you actually see the imperfections as if you were looking through a microscope, you may take advetage of this tool and find a high end SI2 that is 100% eye clean (Clarities are a range so there are low end and high end SIs diamonds).
Online stores will not talk you through to a certain diamond, it is your free choice.
No online store will sell you a cloudy or hazy diamond since you will end up returning it for full refund and they will loose you and all your family and friends as customers.
:boohoo:
 

DeJoHe

Rough_Rock
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Any suggestions for how to ascertain eye-cleanliness online in the VS2-SI1 range? A few of the WF ACAs that I’ve been looking at (1.7-1.9 carat range) are SI1 and it’s tough for me to tell based on the magnified photos and the plots alone. Something that is easy to see under their microscope view may be invisible under normal viewing conditions, but I can’t really tell based on the pix.

Some of their SI1 stones state “inquire” under the eye clean section, whereas their VS stones almost all state “yes” for eye clean.

Without much experience, I’m having trouble discerning for myself. I’ve sent WF an email and am awaiting a response, but let me know if you have any tips/tricks for eyeballing this type of thing on my own!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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WF will help you and will clarify what "eye clean" means in each case. When it says "inquire" it usually means it's eye clean from some angles but not others (e.g. eye clean from the top, but not from the side), or that it's eye clean from 12 inches away, but not closer. But the great thing about WF is that they will tell you specifics about each stone you are interested in, since they have them all in stock and can vidw them in person. They can also show you pics side by side if you want to compare stones.

But if you want to play it safe in terms of eye clean, then stick with the stones that they say are eye clean (not the "inquire" ones).
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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No online store will sell you a cloudy or hazy diamond since you will end up returning it for full refund and they will loose you and all your family and friends as customers.
:boohoo:

:naughty: :naughty: :naughty:

I'm sorry, but this is just a bad statement. You cannot guarantee that an online store under someone else's power will not sell a cloudy or hazy stone. I agree that it makes ZERO sense for them to try to pull such a stunt, but many online retailers are pushing virtual inventory and have no idea if the stone is cloudy or hazy not because it's thousands of miles away in a different country.


Any suggestions for how to ascertain eye-cleanliness online in the VS2-SI1 range? A few of the WF ACAs that I’ve been looking at (1.7-1.9 carat range) are SI1 and it’s tough for me to tell based on the magnified photos and the plots alone. Something that is easy to see under their microscope view may be invisible under normal viewing conditions, but I can’t really tell based on the pix.

Some of their SI1 stones state “inquire” under the eye clean section, whereas their VS stones almost all state “yes” for eye clean.

Without much experience, I’m having trouble discerning for myself. I’ve sent WF an email and am awaiting a response, but let me know if you have any tips/tricks for eyeballing this type of thing on my own!

The majority of VS2's will be eye clean. One of the things to worry about is when clouds are the grade setting inclusion and then you have a note on the side that says "additional clouds are not shown". This can be a dangerous combo and mean the stone may have hazy/cloudy issues, but it does not guarantee that it does.

FYI, the grade setting inclusion is the one that is listed first, or on top when viewing the inclusion plot.

Many SI1's will be eye clean, but not all of them. As @lovedogs pointed out, the nice thing about working with WF is they clearly indicate on their webpage details if the stone is eye clean or not. Stones that are questionable state "inquire".

However, the term "eye clean" is very subjective and there is no industry standard that defines it. Below is WF's definition that seems to work for many people.

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/faq/what-is-your-definition-of.htm

The Whiteflash baseline definition of eye-clean is:

No inclusions visible to the naked eye of a person with 20/20 vision when viewing the diamond in the face-up position at a distance of approximately 10 inches under normal overhead lighting .

Distance, lighting and human vision all influence this judgment. There is no universally agreed upon definition of eye-clean in the trade so we developed this one in order to communicate meaningfully with our customers. 10 inches is the ‘distance of most distinct vision’ as defined by the field of optometry. It is also a basis used by the AGS Laboratory in light performance grading, and so this is a logical standard and a practical baseline.

Diamonds graded by AGS and GIA with clarities of VS or above are almost always completely eye-clean by the above standard. On our website diamond detail pages Si clarity diamonds include an icon indicating when the diamond is eye-clean.

In all cases, I strongly encourage you to have WF pull the stones you are considering and have their gemologist review them. They can be your eyes and give you a detailed report, and also do special side by side photos & videos if you are considering a few different stones. This is a valuable resource and helps provide you the reassurance you need to ensure you are getting a stone that meets or exceeds all your expectations.
 

DeJoHe

Rough_Rock
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Wow I can’t believe WF (or any other online vendor for that matter) would actually go to such lengths to put the customers mind at ease. Taking side by side photos and videos and hand-inspecting for specific criteria is a pretty incredible service for an online vendor, especially when we’re talking about relatively inexpensive stones ($15k-$20k range).

My local dealers wouldn’t even furnish a clear description in-person regarding inclusions and weren’t able to help test out in various lighting situations. And they are reputed to be the “good” stores here in DC. After my poor experience shopping in person, it’s frankly shocking to hear of the caliber of service some of these online dealers provide.

I will eagerly await an email from WF!
 

david b

Shiny_Rock
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Any vendor can be asked and they -if needed -pass the question to the source.
They may not know but this is why you must ask to get the answer about diamond clarity.
If is is a GIA certified diamond a VS2 is 99% to be eye clean diamond and SI1 will be 95% eye clean by definition.

It is difficult to define "eye clean" there is no standard definition for that , We are defining it as watching only from table side and from 20 cm. From bottom of a diamond since there are few reflections sometimes even a VS1 is visible.
I would always worry with SI2s since GIA does not grade the SI3 clarity so they put SI3 in SI2 clarity categories (not always of course).
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
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Wow I can’t believe WF (or any other online vendor for that matter) would actually go to such lengths to put the customers mind at ease. Taking side by side photos and videos and hand-inspecting for specific criteria is a pretty incredible service for an online vendor, especially when we’re talking about relatively inexpensive stones ($15k-$20k range).

My local dealers wouldn’t even furnish a clear description in-person regarding inclusions and weren’t able to help test out in various lighting situations. And they are reputed to be the “good” stores here in DC. After my poor experience shopping in person, it’s frankly shocking to hear of the caliber of service some of these online dealers provide.

I will eagerly await an email from WF!

Keep in mind, places like WF, HPD and BGD are super ideal vendors and they also have local store fronts. What really separates them is they focus on cut quality and precision of a high magnitude. It serves them well to do the additional things like provide performance and symmetry images, videos, pictures, etc to help prove what superior products they have. For the nerds, WF will even run advanced Sarin reports and share with you. The fact the stones are in-stock in their vault and fully vetted also speaks volumes.

IMO, the difference is when you have a unique and high quality product, you have to market it differently than a guy selling a virtual inventory stone that 10 other retailers can get. With virtual inventory you have nothing unique, other than your ability to sell cheaper than your competition. To maximize profit margins, you can't always offer the same level of service of those with more high quality & unique products because those services cost money, time & effort.

Aside from gorgeous diamonds, one of the things I love about WF, HPD and BGD is they have a sincere desire to build a long-term relationship with a client. Notice I said client, and not customer? Customers are just people that spend money. When companies take time to treat you like a valued client, that is special -- period. I have lots of choices of where to spend my money so I like to spend it with people that I like, and that have great products and fair prices. Fair prices doesn't always mean the lowest price, but rather a good price that is cognizant of all criteria and circumstances I deem important.

I'm not sure who is helping you at WF, but I am going to call out @Texas Leaguer who is their VP and might be able to help expedite the process.


Any vendor can be asked and they -if needed -pass the question to the source.
They may not know but this is why you must ask to get the answer about diamond clarity.
If is is a GIA certified diamond a VS2 is 99% to be eye clean diamond and SI1 will be 95% eye clean by definition.

It is difficult to define "eye clean" there is no standard definition for that , We are defining it as watching only from table side and from 20 cm. From bottom of a diamond since there are few reflections sometimes even a VS1 is visible.
I would always worry with SI2s since GIA does not grade the SI3 clarity so they put SI3 in SI2 clarity categories (not always of course).

Where are you getting your facts for 99% eye clean on VS2's and 95% on SI1's? I hate percentages in general as a statistics professor once started his class with the expression, "99% of all statistics is made up".

While I'm not implying you made them up, I will explain what the professor meant. Most the time, to make a statement about percentages we had to have a sample group. That sample group may or may not be fully representative of the actual group. Most the time the sample group is much smaller and does not always give accurate results.

I haven't actually done any precise data collection & reporting or scientific methods to confirm but in my limited layman sampling I'm not sure I would agree that 95% of all SI1's are eye clean which is why I found this statement interesting.
 

The Stig

Rough_Rock
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Jul 27, 2018
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Where are you getting your facts for 99% eye clean on VS2's and 95% on SI1's? I hate percentages in general as a statistics professor once started his class with the expression, "99% of all statistics is made up".

While I'm not implying you made them up, I will explain what the professor meant. Most the time, to make a statement about percentages we had to have a sample group. That sample group may or may not be fully representative of the actual group. Most the time the sample group is much smaller and does not always give accurate results.

I haven't actually done any precise data collection & reporting or scientific methods to confirm but in my limited layman sampling I'm not sure I would agree that 95% of all SI1's are eye clean which is why I found this statement interesting.

Interesting interpretation of David's post. I actually interpreted his post to mean that when looking at any given stone, then if over 99% of the surface area was eye-clean, then that stone could be graded VS, whilst anything over 95% and under 99% would be graded SI. Make sense?
 

david b

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235
Well I agree to leave the % out of this but in my hamble 35 years looking at diamonds I do not remember (maybe it is my memory) seing a GIA or AGS or HRD certified VS2 which is visible- as mentioned before by looking from top from 20cm.
Very rarely I see an SI1 diamond certified by the above labs that is not eye clean, the real problem starts with SI2 certified diamonds-many are not eye clean.
 
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