99.2% of recent US Covid deaths were unvaccinated people

[Queenie60]

Fair enough, but I wasn’t referring to what you said. This has to stop, I don’t understand how a poster can spew so much hatred (not only towards me) and make vile comments and nothing happens and nobody condemns it.

I have condemned it and he simply put me on "ignore" - loves to spew hatred against others however, doesn't seem to be able to take what he dishes out. It's sick humor.

 

[doberman]

Huh?
How is my response wishing death on anyone?
Mine is a reasonable statement, at least to those who understand Darwin's theory. ...

From Wiki:
What was Darwin's theory?

Darwinism is a theory of biological evolution developed by the English naturalist Charles Darwin (1809–1882) and others, stating that all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations that increase the individual's ability to compete, survive, and reproduce.

Using your logic, your statement... "As far as I'm concerned, covid deaths due to refusal of the vaccine are simply Darwin's theory in action." ... is also (as you put it) absolutely disgusting, to wish death on children is seriously a new low, to wish death on anyone is bad enough."

Darwinism in a nutshell is good DNA survives and bad DNA doesn't.
Was Darwin "wishing death" on anyone/anything?

"Darwin's theory in action" as you put it applies to all living things, young and old.

@kenny
Were you talking to me? FTR i have no problem with what you or anyone else said in this thread.

 

[LilAlex]

Someone has to say this is not okay, at some point it crosses a line of decency and IMO that was today.

Please stop gaslighting all of us. This thread is not about your meta-perceptions of insult -- now re-stated in four (? five) separate, consecutive posts. It is about getting the vaccine. Those hostile to the vaccine and spreading lies and misinformation (several on this thread) are not models of "decency."

There is real empathy fatigue among those who are caring for the willfully ignorant -- a.k.a., the willfully ill.

It's like a plumber getting yelled at by someone because there's no such thing as plumbing and he's just been lied to and tricked by "the man" and the media.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@LilAlex I am not gaslighting and I am not hostile towards the the vaccine and all the other nonsense you wrote. I have not said even once that someone shouldn’t take it. What are you posting to me for anyways? To shame me into silence for finding a post in extremely poor taste?

 

[lovedogs]

I struggle to have sympathy for anyone who *chooses* not to be vaccinated. Becuase it doesnt only affect them, it also puts everyone else in danger (higher probability of vaccine resistant mutations, putting unvaccinated children in danger, etc).

 

[LilAlex]

What are you posting to me for anyways? To shame me into silence for finding a post in extremely poor taste?

Oops -- I apologize for mischaracterizing your stance on the vaccine. That was not okay.

I do not think perseverating on one post that was (only arguably) in poor taste is constructive.

There are many, many posts here that will -- if taken seriously -- lead to actual death and disability.

 

[Queenie60]

I struggle to have sympathy for anyone who *chooses* not to be vaccinated. Becuase it doesnt only affect them, it also puts everyone else in danger (higher probability of vaccine resistant mutations, putting unvaccinated children in danger, etc).

So.... what do you propose "they" do with those of us who are posing danger to others and possibly "killing people?" And, are you aware that children have a very low probability of becoming deathly ill from the "virus"?

 

[LilAlex]

So.... what do you propose "they" do with those of us who are posing danger to others and possibly "killing people?" And, are you aware that children have a very low probability of becoming deathly ill from the "virus"?

Are you a child? If you are, then I have no quarrel.

If you are not a child, then I'm afraid there is nothing that "they" can do with you. We are all just so, so tired of cleaning up after you at this point. And know that an old, vaccinated Australian billionaire is rolling on the floor laughing at you and his amazingly good fortune in manipulating you and your friends, family, and co-workers.

Although it is actually so bad that even FOX News has posted this gem (AP story today that was picked up by FOX), "Pandemic of the unvaccinated burdens busy US hospitals." They initially used a different title and buried the "unvaccinated" part . They report that "the nation's vaccination drive has slowed to a crawl" -- note the passive voice -- as if this just kinda happened all by itself .

 

[kenny]

@kenny
Were you talking to me? FTR i have no problem with what you or anyone else said in this thread.

Sorry doberman, and thanks.
I did get posts mixed up.

My apologies to all.

 

[Queenie60]

Propaganda for the "sheep" - we shall see.........

 

[Queenie60]

Are you a child? If you are, then I have no quarrel.

If you are not a child, then I'm afraid there is nothing that "they" can do with you. We are all just so, so tired of cleaning up after you at this point. And know that an old, vaccinated Australian billionaire is rolling on the floor laughing at you and his amazingly good fortune in manipulating you and your friends, family, and co-workers.

Although it is actually so bad that even FOX News has posted this gem (AP story today that was picked up by FOX), "Pandemic of the unvaccinated burdens busy US hospitals." They initially used a different title and buried the "unvaccinated" part . They report that "the nation's vaccination drive has slowed to a crawl" -- note the passive voice -- as if this just kinda happened all by itself .

Personally, I feel that "the vaccinated Australian billionaire is rolling on the floor and will be laughing at you and his amazing good fortune as the government was on their side and manipulating you and your friends to take the "jab" so that he and "big Pharma" can make the buck on your gamble with your health because you took the "jab" based on their propaganda. Go figure????

Therefore, what makes your opinion based on "propaganda" more valid than my decision to not take the "jab"? In summary, there's a lot of information that convinces me as well as others, the so called "vaccine" isn't as full proof as "they" say it is. And furthermore, I have had the COVID 19 and have anti-bodies to protect me - and there's no science that can prove that my anti-bodies are less protective than their "so called vaccine." And why does the Government and media have such an interest to push this on the population? Wouldn't you question this? And wouldn't you question why they are so motivated to have everyone vaccinated? Bottom line - it's an experimental drug and a push for big Pharma to gain a profit. "my body, my choice" - right?

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@LilAlex, My stance on the vaccine is irrelevant. However what you view as “not constructive” was important to ME and possibly others so it’s rather dismissive to say that it wasn’t constructive.

It’s my opinion that the Darwin comments and arguments are not constructive. As an example, I don’t expect anyone to have sympathy for me if say my husband dies because he didn’t get the vax.

However I do expect that his death not be celebrated as a one less anti-vax moron in the world. It is indecent to celebrate the death of another human.

 

[missy]

However I do expect that his death not be celebrated as a one less anti-vax moron in the world. It is indecent to celebrate the death of another human.

No death should ever be celebrated unless it is the death of an evil being like Adolph Hitler. But any living being's death should be mourned. No matter the reason for their death. I will extend that beyond humans because it's not only human life that should be valued. But that is not the topic of this thread so I will leave that alone.

It’s my opinion that the Darwin comments and arguments are not constructive

It's my opinion that Darwin was brilliant and his arguments are constructive.

From Darwin's Origin of Species toward a theory of natural history

Darwin is the father of evolutionary theory because he identified evolutionary patterns and, with Natural Selection, he ascertained the exquisitely ecological ultimate processes that lead to evolution. The proximate processes of evolution he proposed, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Even though The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life was written over 160 years ago, Charles Darwin's ideas are still considered to be the foundations for the theory of evolution and natural selection. Darwin's multitude of examples makes On the Origin of Species a very impressive and convincing work. Darwin was an independent thinker, a great scientist and the most influential biologist in history. His ideas are a linchpin of modern science.


But again, it doesn't matter what you or I think. Or if you or I agree. Or disagree.

Right now, in this moment in time, what matters is that we get through this pandemic whole. Which at this point is looking grim.

I have been watching in horror (though sadly not too much surprise) as the numbers of those infected and dying with Covid are on the rise. Each day increasing.

And the indisputable fact is the great majority of those deaths are in the unvaccinated.

I worry about those who cannot get vaccinated. The very young, those with underlying conditions that make it very risky and those with severe AI issues and under-active immune systems. It is a very serious concern. And the situation is dire.

Darwin put forth the idea in The Descent of Man (1871), that our moral sympathies could evolve, as human society evolved. That moral values must have evolved because they are useful to our species. Please, let's put that into practice and instead of harsh judgment let's work towards educating those who are misguided and/or believe false facts about getting vaccinated and support those who just cannot get vaccinated (for valid health reasons).

Instead of fighting against each other (be it political, religious, medical etc) let's try to understand each other and work towards the shared goal of getting through this pandemic and keeping our loved ones well. Mentally, physically and financially. The surest and quickest (and maybe only) way to do this is for as many people as possible to get vaccinated. And as quickly as possible. Period.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

I agree with much of what you said @missy. No doubt that Darwin was brilliant, I just really take issue with how Darwin has been used in this thread. Not in a constructive thoughtful way or to cite his theories or accomplishments but as a sarcastic hateful way of hurting people.

It bothers me immensely to think that if I died as an unvaccinated person (for what I wholeheartedly believe are good reasons for myself) that some PS people would think “well that’s Darwin for you, no big loss”. I guess it’s better to know who feels that way than not but it still hurts.

Anyways, I respect that you are so thoughtful in your replies, I know we may not always agree but it’s nice that we can present opposing views without the hatred.

 

[missy]

It bothers me immensely to think that if I died as an unvaccinated person (for what I wholeheartedly believe are good reasons for myself) that some PS people would think “well that’s Darwin for you, no big loss”. I guess it’s better to know who feels that way than not but it still hurts.

Of course, that is a terrible thing to wish on anyone. Even one's enemies. I would never, could never wish harm on anyone (who hasn't murdered someone with premeditated evil intent or raped a child etc), even people who might wish me harm. I am not built that way. I also believe in karma. What you wish on someone will come back to you. I truly believe that. But again, I digress.

I am sorry some comments here upset you and know that (and I am not speaking specifically for anyone here just in general terms, so please, anyone reading this, don't take offense, I am not putting words in your mouth) I am relatively certain that all the people posting here do not wish harm on anyone. Not really. I feel at times, people can write things for effect and exaggerate in doing so. But do not literally mean what they are writing.

But again, what I think doesn't matter. I just wanted to lend my support to you and anyone else here who felt misunderstood. I think there has been plenty of misunderstanding on all sides. We really are part of the same human existence and to that end we need to understand each other and work together as best we can putting our differences aside.

As human beings that is something we can do. We have the unique ability for complex reasoning. I feel it critical to realize we are all in this fight together and despite differences we need to empathize and understand all sides.

 

[lovedogs]

@LilAlex, My stance on the vaccine is irrelevant. However what you view as “not constructive” was important to ME and possibly others so it’s rather dismissive to say that it wasn’t constructive.

It’s my opinion that the Darwin comments and arguments are not constructive. As an example, I don’t expect anyone to have sympathy for me if say my husband dies because he didn’t get the vax.

However I do expect that his death not be celebrated as a one less anti-vax moron in the world. It is indecent to celebrate the death of another human.

I wont ever celebrate someone's death (unless, as @missy said above, they are truly evil).

@Queenie60 your nonsensical conspiracy theories are just that. Conspiracy theories with zero evidence. Not backed by science, and not worth arguing with.

Edit. You asked what makes our options more valid than yours. The answer is that ours are based in fact and backed by research and science. Yours are not.

 

[doberman]

I have actually read The Origin of Species. Slow going in some parts, more interesting in others.

The term 'Darwin award" is pretty common. While its use is cynical, I believe that there is a grain of truth to be found within the phrase. And I'm not going to pretend to be sad that someone died of covid because he bought all the anti-vax nonsense out there. But not being sad is a long, long way from wishing someone was dead.

I'm a very honest person. I don't think I necessarily have to be sad when I hear of someone dying. The young man in a third world country who is unable to get the vaccine as easily as we can here in the US? That is a tragedy. The guy who watched too much Fox news and wouldn't get the vaccine - thereby putting himself and other immune compromised people at risk? No, not sad at all. If that makes me a bad person, oh well.

 

[Elizabeth35]

I wont ever celebrate someone's death (unless, as @missy said above, they are truly evil).

@Queenie60 your nonsensical conspiracy theories are just that. Conspiracy theories with zero evidence. Not backed by science, and not worth arguing with.

Edit. You asked what makes our options more valid than yours. The answer is that ours are based in fact and backed by research and science. Yours are not.

This is hitting the nail on the head. I have no issue discussing pros and cons of the vaccine with both sides, provided that there is scientific data from both sides.
But spouting opinions, feelings and conspiracy theories without substantiation is just deflection.
The part that anti-vaxxers seem to struggle with is understanding why everyone is so annoyed with them.
They seem unaware that their 'choices' are keeping us in this pandemic longer, causing needless illness and deaths, and preventing herd immunity.
They are causing untold financial difficulties for many as their businesses fail.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem with this pandemic.

 

[lovedogs]

I have actually read The Origin of Species. Slow going in some parts, more interesting in others.

The term 'Darwin award" is pretty common. While its use is cynical, I believe that there is a grain of truth to be found within the phrase. And I'm not going to pretend to be sad that someone died of covid because he bought all the anti-vax nonsense out there. But not being sad is a long, long way from wishing someone was dead.

I'm a very honest person. I don't think I necessarily have to be sad when I hear of someone dying. The young man in a third world country who is unable to get the vaccine as easily as we can here in the US? That is a tragedy. The guy who watched too much Fox news and wouldn't get the vaccine - thereby putting himself and other immune compromised people at risk? No, not sad at all. If that makes me a bad person, oh well.

This is a great point. Not being sad is far different than celebrating death or wishing it on someone.

 

[Babyblue033]

And, are you aware that children have a very low probability of becoming deathly ill from the "virus"?

As a mother of 2 young ones that cannot be vaccinated yet, I don't appreciate people willing to take the risk on my children's lives because the "probability" is very low. That might be acceptable risk to you, but it certainly is not to me. It's one thing to accept "low risk" of things that are outside of our control, but not when there are actually ways to avoid it altogether.

 

[wildcat03]

That's what made me want it. Right in the beginning a fellow teacher (we even went to HS together), died of COVID while pregnant with her second child. So very sad.

I'm so so sorry for your loss. We lost the chief of our ICU a bit later (July 2020) and it was devastating. I can only imagine losing someone younger and at what should have been such a happy and exciting time in her life.

 

[LilAlex]

However I do expect that his death not be celebrated as a one less anti-vax moron in the world. It is indecent to celebrate the death of another human.

Maybe I am missing your point?

If your husband elects to not get the vaccine -- even though it is readily available to him -- for no other reason than his own willful ignorance, then I will not celebrate his illness or his death. I will, however, consider it far less sad and tragic than the loss of life and health among those who do not have ready access to the vaccine.

 

[LilAlex]

Therefore, what makes your opinion based on "propaganda" more valid than my decision to not take the "jab"?

One word: science. The same people who gave you the global reach of this platform for your particular flavor of willful ignorance. The people who brought you a supercomputer/communicator that you carry in your purse. The people who figured out how to replace the valves in your heart and cure many cancers. The people who made electric cars and started commercial space travel. The people who discovered and refined antibiotics and organ transplants and I could go on and on forever.

Those of us who know and do science and medicine -- and really any brain-requiring activity -- just shake our heads at posts like yours. If Tucker said tomorrow that there was no gravity, you'd ridicule all the stoopid gravity believers.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Maybe I am missing your point?

If your husband elects to not get the vaccine -- even though it is readily available to him -- for no other reason than his own willful ignorance, then I will not celebrate his illness or his death. I will, however, consider it far less sad and tragic than the loss of life and health among those who do not have ready access to the vaccine.

Right because there is no other even possible reason someone could decline to take this vaccine apart from being willfully ignorant. Got it. Nope you aren’t missing my point, however it would be helpful to acknowledge that some people who decline the vaccine do so for reasons other than just being stupid. This is not a one size fits all product, yet it is being treated as such, people who refuse it are demonized or labeled as stupid or ignorant.

I had a rare blood clot seven years ago, so rare that Yale had never seen this occur in someone of my age during pregnancy. They even brought in a specialist who had no explanation. I am not taking this vaccine for any even slightly minute risk of a blood clot. I see that as smart and informed based on MY medical history. This is what I mean, it’s not some benign thing, it can have serious consequences for some people.

Edited to add: By the way, I’m not trying to argue that I am right, like I said this is based on my personal history, if someone wants to get the shot then great. However just assuming someone is declining the shot out of willful ignorance is extremely short-sighted.

 

[Elizabeth35]

Yada-I am sorry you have had blood clot issues. That is scary. My husband had multiple blood clots post-surgery when he was immobilized. They became multiple pulmonary embolisms in both lungs. He has been vaccinated.
I realize I don't know what your clotting issue is.
But I sincerely hope that you have chosen to not vaccinate after first discussing with your pulmonologist/cardiologist/hematologist/primary care physician.
My understanding is the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines are the ones with potential blood clotting issues.
What is the science surrounding blood clots and the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines--any studies on that?

 

[chemgirl]

If your husband elects to not get the vaccine -- even though it is readily available to him -- for no other reason than his own willful ignorance, then I will not celebrate his illness or his death. I will, however, consider it far less sad and tragic than the loss of life and health among those who do not have ready access to the vaccine.

My dad is an avid golfer and also very risk averse. Years ago, during a tournament, there was thunder, but the horn didn’t sound. He packed up to head back to the clubhouse, one of his teammates argued with him and wanted to finish the hole. There was an argument and the other player started waving his golf club in the air to prove that it was safe to be outside.

Guess who was struck by lightning and died?

My dad wasn’t sad. He didn’t wish death on the guy, didn’t think he deserved it, but felt that death was a direct result of stupidity. It’s not a tragedy.

I see the people who can medically be vaccinated and choose not to as that guy.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Yada-I am sorry you have had blood clot issues. That is scary. My husband had multiple blood clots post-surgery when he was immobilized. They became multiple pulmonary embolisms in both lungs. He has been vaccinated.
I realize I don't know what your clotting issue is.
But I sincerely hope that you have chosen to not vaccinate after first discussing with your pulmonologist/cardiologist/hematologist/primary care physician.
My understanding is the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccines are the ones with potential blood clotting issues.
What is the science surrounding blood clots and the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines--any studies on that?

It is scary and I’m sorry your husband had to go through that. I had branch retinal arterial occlusion at somewhere around 32 weeks pregnant and lost the central vision in my left eye.

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

Right because there is no other even possible reason someone could decline to take this vaccine apart from being willfully ignorant. Got it. Nope you aren’t missing my point, however it would be helpful to acknowledge that some people who decline the vaccine do so for reasons other than just being stupid. This is not a one size fits all product, yet it is being treated as such, people who refuse it are demonized or labeled as stupid or ignorant.

I had a rare blood clot seven years ago, so rare that Yale had never seen this occur in someone of my age during pregnancy. They even brought in a specialist who had no explanation. I am not taking this vaccine for any even slightly minute risk of a blood clot. I see that as smart and informed based on MY medical history. This is what I mean, it’s not some benign thing, it can have serious consequences for some people.

Edited to add: By the way, I’m not trying to argue that I am right, like I said this is based on my personal history, if someone wants to get the shot then great. However just assuming someone is declining the shot out of willful ignorance is extremely short-sighted.

For what it's worth, I totally understand and support your decision.

 

[LilAlex]

I had a rare blood clot seven years ago, so rare that Yale had never seen this occur in someone of my age during pregnanc

Sorry to hear this.

Two things:

1. There is no age at which a blood clot during pregnancy -- or outside of pregnancy -- is bafflingly rare. Maybe it was someone just starting their training? Or maybe you were 11 or 60 and they just don't see many folks in that age range? My spouse just had a serious blood clot within the past year and ran to get her vaccine. (Then again, she also ran to administer a few thousand of them back in the happy days a few months ago when folks still believed in vaccines.)

2. COVID causes terrible clotting complications. If I had a tendency to blood clots, I would be terrified of getting COVID. I would be much less terrified of getting clotting complications from a vaccine. Look up the relative incidence -- the difference is many orders of magnitude.

The 45% of the country who will not get vaccinated do not have complex clotting histories. Although I just learned about an Oregon-trained ND who would probably be willing to write you a fake medical history to that effect for the right price .

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Quick correction, it was central retinal arterial occlusion not branch and I was 34 weeks.