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99.2% of recent US Covid deaths were unvaccinated people

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westofhere

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Everything Doberman said. In the end, it’s their body and their suicide. I’m growing daily less willing to wear a mask to save the lives of such people. Tens of thousands of them, if not hundreds of thousands again, will be dead by winter’s end.
 

AdaBeta27

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While the rest of your argument is sound, I disagree with your notion that getting actual COVID makes you "more vaccinated". Each individual who naturally overcomes the disease can have antibodies who attack different parts of the virus.

The mRNA vaccines (I have on good authority from research lab microbiologists) target MANY sites on the spike protein, and trains your body to make antibodies targeted to the critical part of the virus that allows it to latch onto cells.

If your body makes antibodies against other parts of the virus that vary more than the spike protein, according to the strain, then you're not as well-protected against other stations of the virus as the people who took a vaccine trained to target the part of the virus that tends to change the least. I've heard that reinfections with different strains are more serious for those that did not get a vaccine.

Apologies if this was previously mentioned somewhere in the 14 pages. But this writer claims that Israel as of mid July was seeing a big uptick in *vaccinated* people being hospitalized. And that it's starting to appear as if the recovered covid people have a better and more complete natural-immunity defense against the delta variant than the vaccinated people. (Which imo is still no reason to not get vaccinated. I am not afraid of this vaccine ruining my health.)
link: https://arieh.substack.com/p/inside-israels-delta-outbreak-part
 

wildcat03

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Apologies if this was previously mentioned somewhere in the 14 pages. But this writer claims that Israel as of mid July was seeing a big uptick in *vaccinated* people being hospitalized. And that it's starting to appear as if the recovered covid people have a better and more complete natural-immunity defense against the delta variant than the vaccinated people. (Which imo is still no reason to not get vaccinated. I am not afraid of this vaccine ruining my health.)
link: https://arieh.substack.com/p/inside-israels-delta-outbreak-part
So, first, I think you might be misinterpreting some of the statements in this article. First, Israel's vaccination rate is very high. There are few unvaccinated people. So, it's entirely reasonable to think that some vaccinated people will end up hospitalized. (From my US colleagues in surge states, most of their vaccinated admissions are NOT having respiratory problems - mostly weakness, diarrhea, dehydration. They are not in the ICU and they generally only need a few days in the hospital. Unvaccinated patients end up admitted forever.)

In addition, the article's suggestion that prior COVID infection may confer better protection against Delta is absolutely unsupported by any data that they provide and even the author kind of shrugs and throws out a few suggestions as to why (and doesn't fully clarify what percentage of the population is previously infected vs previously infected AND partially or even fully vaccinated). There is other evidence that prior COVID is poorly protective against Delta, whereas this is just speculation.
 

Lookinagain

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Bottom line - it's an experimental drug and a push for big Pharma to gain a profit. "my body, my choice" - right?

Doesn't Big Pharma make all vaccines we use? the MMR vaccine that most if not all of us need to receive to attend school? The shingles vaccine many over 50 are getting; the pneumonia vaccine? Sure they make a profit. It's still a business. But that doesn't make it a conspiracy.

And my answer to why the government is pushing it is because they want this horrible pandemic to end. Let life get back to normal. Let the economy recover without infusions of capital. There are lots of reasons why they government would want us to get vaccinated. That it makes sense is the strongest reason of all.
 

missy

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From this link.

"
We as a country have a vested interest in getting the rest of the world vaccinated," Murthy said. "It's one of the reasons why we don't want to have to choose between giving our population boosters, if it's required, and vaccinating the rest of the world."

This is why the United States is making sure it is increasing manufacturing capacity in other countries, he said, working with vaccine companies such as Pfizer and Moderna to ensure they are producing more for the rest of the world and donating excess supply to other countries."
 

OboeGal

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Apologies if this was previously mentioned somewhere in the 14 pages. But this writer claims that Israel as of mid July was seeing a big uptick in *vaccinated* people being hospitalized. And that it's starting to appear as if the recovered covid people have a better and more complete natural-immunity defense against the delta variant than the vaccinated people. (Which imo is still no reason to not get vaccinated. I am not afraid of this vaccine ruining my health.)
link: https://arieh.substack.com/p/inside-israels-delta-outbreak-part

I, and my scientist husband, have looked at this data and studied it. As @wildcat03 alluded to, this data must be seen through the lens of the incredibly high rate of vaccination among adults in Israel. This study looks at absolute numbers, but you need to look at percentages. For example (with made-up numbers): say you have 90 out of 100 people in a group vaccinated. Three people out of the unvaccinated group end up in the hospital, and five of the vaccinated. Looking at absolute numbers, it can look alarming -- MORE vaccinated people ended up in the hospital! But, now look at percentages: 3 out of 10 is 30%, while 5 out of 90 is less than 6%. So, the vaccine still is sharply reducing the percentage of vaccinated people hospitalized. This kind of statistical phenomenon is what you're seeing in the Israeli data. Also, as @wildcat03 mentioned, it is rare for vaccinated people to end up in the ICU or dying.

That said - it IS true that the vaccines' effectiveness in preventing moderate to severe illness and death against the Delta variant is reduced some, and is reduced even more against mild or asymptomatic infection and transmission to others. We are also seeing long-haul syndrome in vaccinated people who get breakthrough infections at about the same rate that we see it develop in unvaccinated individuals who become infected - around 20% or so. (These breakthrough infections, especially with more severity of illness, and long-haul cases are more likely to occur in people that are immune-suppressed due to medical conditions, treatments for medical conditions, or being over the age of 50 or 60, as those groups don't have the same "robust" response to a vaccine in their immune systems. Over time, researchers will come up with safe tweaked dosing/dosing schedules that will help to reduce this effect, like they already do with flu shots, but they haven't had a chance to yet.) That is why it's critical even for vaccinated people to wear masks, stop with unnecessary travel, be very circumspect about gatherings (even outdoors), etc.

The facts are that, until or unless many more people become vaccinated, even those who are aren't going to be truly safe or able to lead anything like a normal life here in the US, especially if they're a bit older.
 

OboeGal

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I feel the need to address @icy_jade's points about vaccine equity around the world, and particularly how the issue of booster shots in the developed world affect the status of vaccinations elsewhere.

Vaccine equity IS a critically important issue for both basic humanitarian reasons as well as protection of the efficacy of our current vaccines - there is no question about that. However - it is really important to understand the role that booster shots in countries with a lot of people vaccinated play as well. It is true that ANYWHERE where we see the virus rapidly spreading through a lot of hosts creates heightened risk of developing concerning mutations; if one understands the immunology at a deeper level, though, one finds that the risk of developing mutations that in particular escape our current vaccines is highest in people who are vaccinated but for some reason are only getting partial protection from their vaccine. That could be for several reasons: they didn't get the second shot; they are immune-suppressed due to a medical condition or treatment for a medical condition; they are above the age of 50 or 60; or they are encountering a variant for which the vaccine is less effective. There are many people in countries that have had vaccines available for a while that fit at least one of those first three cases; now, with the swift advent of the Delta variant, they - we - ALL might fit the last criteria. That is what the experts are trying to determine for sure right now. To reiterate - based on the immunology, those groups are more likely to develop mutations that specifically escape the vaccines then the unvaccinated. Therefore, if we want to protect the efficacy of the current vaccines for EVERYONE, worldwide, we must make sure that those groups that meet the first three criteria get boosters, and the rest of us as well if it's determined that it's needed against Delta.
 

doberman

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@Dancing Fire

With regard to the thought that children have a nearly 0% chance of contracting covid, there's this:

Child with covid

There are sure to be many others to follow. And so many people, once they're sick and in the hospital, wish they had the vaccine. Evil people have politicized this disease and allowed it to spread, and with the delta variant this is very, very serious.
 
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OboeGal

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@Dancing Fire

With regard to the thought that children have a nearly 0% chance of contracting covid, there's this:

Child with covid

There are sure to be many others to follow. And so many people, once they're sick and in the hospital, wish they had the vaccine. Evil people have politicized this disease and allowed it to spread, and with the delta variant this is very, very serious.

Absolutely true. The Delta variant is more severe for everyone, and in particular it is more severe for children, teens, and young adults.
 

Calliecake

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Indonesia has had 100 children die a week during the month of July. One week had 150 children die, half under the age of 5. Children now make up 12.5 percent of the country‘s confirmed coronavirus cases, an increases over previous months.

We are being extremely foolish if we don’t see the potential for children being seriously impacted by the virus.
 
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Dancing Fire

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@Dancing Fire

With regard to the thought that children have a nearly 0% chance of contracting covid, there's this:

Child with covid

There are sure to be many others to follow. And so many people, once they're sick and in the hospital, wish they had the vaccine. Evil people have politicized this disease and allowed it to spread, and with the delta variant this is very, very serious.

98% of the young kids will not die from the virus even if they are tested positive it is up to the parents to decide if they want their children to be vaccinated. The vaccinated aren't as safe as they think. They are among the spreaders too. This virus isn't gonna end soon. What variant will come after Delta? nobody knows... Idunno1.gif

 

PinkAndBlueBling

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Holy crap! I leave for 10 days and come back to pages of replies! It's amazing this is still an ongoing discussion. :wall: The trip, while fun, was a bit eye-opening.

We travelled to Aruba. You have to be fully vaccinated or tested to enter the country. They are changing that as of August 1 for US visitors, who have to be tested regardless of vaccine status because they consider the US a high-risk country. So embarrassing!

So...masks are required on airlines and in airports. Unfortunately, we had a one night stay in Florida. Mask policy not enforced at all in their airport. Sorry, they are ***holes. A crew member on our JetBlue flight from FL-Aruba announced the mask policy, then proceeded to tell us he didn't agree with it! Basically, he gave passengers implied permission to not wear masks. Their corporate office got a scathing email from me yesterday. They replied immediately and were not pleased.

On to Aruba.... Masks? What masks? Pandemic? Where? We masked in public, sanitized, and frequently washed hands. We don't trust people, for good reason. As the week went on, places became more crowded, and very few masks were seen. We went on a snorkel trip and were packed in like sardines! Not cool. It seriously was as if there had never been a pandemic. People seemed to have a false sense of security because of the entry requirements.:confused: They just didn't stop and think that testing was three days old and you can still be a carrier. Or they didn't give a crap. It was crazy! My DD is an RN, and was extra-careful. She didn't want to risk bringing anything back to work. Other DD had Covid months ago (mild case) and one vaccine (got 2nd yesterday) but was careful mainly because my husband has weak lungs. He stayed home and babysat the fur babies.

To enter the US from another country you have to take a COVID test no more than three days before entry. If it's positive, you have to quarantine in Aruba in a designated housing unit. They require you to buy insurance for this prior to travel.

Bottom line is people just don't get the seriousness of this Delta variant. It's not a freaking conspiracy or overhyped BS. It's happening because we are stupid and careless. Period. Go ahead and be an idiot, but please stay TF away from me and my family.
 

Lookinagain

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98% of the young kids will not die from the virus even if they are tested positive it is up to the parents to decide if they want their children to be vaccinated. The vaccinated aren't as safe as they think. They are among the spreaders too. This virus isn't gonna end soon. What variant will come after Delta? nobody knows... Idunno1.gif


Yes, vaccinated people can still catch and spread the virus and some are hospitalized, and some may die. But that article says it is 2.44% of the COVID deaths in Illinois in that time period. Which means 97.56% of the deaths were people who were NOT vaccinated. So it seems to me you are pointing to an article that contradicts your arguments. That statistic only proves that vaccinated people are much less likely to die. If the story changes and it becomes closer to 50/50 then your argument holds water, but otherwise, it does not.
 

PinkAndBlueBling

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I had lunch with a few friends yesterday to celebrate the end of cancer treatments for one of them. All four of us are vaccinated, but two believe the BS being spewed about COVID.

My DD's hospital is a major, top, top, top US hospital in LA and had a huge COVID patient load. They had to close some units and reconfigure all floors during the height of the pandemic. Some colleagues died, including a very sweet, older nursing assistant. Luckily, just before the pandemic, DD switched units so was not caring for COVID patients. Phew! Anyhow, they are starting to see surge in patients.

My two friends questioned the surge as if that was the false news. I said DD's hospital has XX COVID patients. One said, "Give them hydroxychloroquine and cephalexin and send them home." I turned to hear and said, "WTF did you just say?" She repeated it and I as I waiting for my brain to stop swirling, I just told all of them we were not discussing COVID or politics because it was just going to make me mad. :wall: They also don't like the government knowing our vaccine status since you can get your record form the state. Ugh. I said I stopped worrying about any of that when I got my license and it was in DMV database. I mean, really????? What the hell is CA going to do with my vaccine record, besides make it easily accessible for me?!

So you do agree we should close the Mexican border?

Later, the same one said something about people crossing the border with COVID. OMG. I just can't listen to that BS anymore! First, Mexicans/Latinx are not the only illegal individuals! I know a woman from So Africa who was here illegally, and a gay friend married a gal from Sweden so she could stay here. I know - it's shocking that white people can be here illegally! Second, go look at the border and the vast wasteland that must be crossed. People die there. It's not like those south of the US are dancing and skipping across the border. Third, we are infecting ourselves. You can't blame everything on Mexico. They are not to blame for this shitfest! We are. Suck it up, buttercup. We are failing miserably!
 

doberman

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98% of the young kids will not die from the virus even if they are tested positive it is up to the parents to decide if they want their children to be vaccinated. The vaccinated aren't as safe as they think. They are among the spreaders too. This virus isn't gonna end soon. What variant will come after Delta? nobody knows... Idunno1.gif


What variant indeed - it's too horrible to contemplate. But I still think you should get any bit of protection you can from this disease, which means including children being immunized.
 

doberman

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I had lunch with a few friends yesterday to celebrate the end of cancer treatments for one of them. All four of us are vaccinated, but two believe the BS being spewed about COVID.

My DD's hospital is a major, top, top, top US hospital in LA and had a huge COVID patient load. They had to close some units and reconfigure all floors during the height of the pandemic. Some colleagues died, including a very sweet, older nursing assistant. Luckily, just before the pandemic, DD switched units so was not caring for COVID patients. Phew! Anyhow, they are starting to see surge in patients.

My two friends questioned the surge as if that was the false news. I said DD's hospital has XX COVID patients. One said, "Give them hydroxychloroquine and cephalexin and send them home." I turned to hear and said, "WTF did you just say?" She repeated it and I as I waiting for my brain to stop swirling, I just told all of them we were not discussing COVID or politics because it was just going to make me mad. :wall: They also don't like the government knowing our vaccine status since you can get your record form the state. Ugh. I said I stopped worrying about any of that when I got my license and it was in DMV database. I mean, really????? What the hell is CA going to do with my vaccine record, besides make it easily accessible for me?!



Later, the same one said something about people crossing the border with COVID. OMG. I just can't listen to that BS anymore! First, Mexicans/Latinx are not the only illegal individuals! I know a woman from So Africa who was here illegally, and a gay friend married a gal from Sweden so she could stay here. I know - it's shocking that white people can be here illegally! Second, go look at the border and the vast wasteland that must be crossed. People die there. It's not like those south of the US are dancing and skipping across the border. Third, we are infecting ourselves. You can't blame everything on Mexico. They are not to blame for this shitfest! We are. Suck it up, buttercup. We are failing miserably!

I couldn't agree more. Various nefarious "news" sources have convinced a significant amount of Americans that their rights are endangered by the vaccine or anything associated with it, such as a database. Never mind that such databases exist for all sorts of things in our lives, such as professional licenses for those in Healthcare or who own cars or houses. No, this vaccine is just a liberal antifa plot to turn the US into a socialist state. Sorry if this is too political mods, remove if necessary, but the politicization of something that can potentially save lives just fries me.
 

elizat

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So...masks are required on airlines and in airports. Unfortunately, we had a one night stay in Florida. Mask policy not enforced at all in their airport. Sorry, they are ***holes.

We are not all "*******s" in Florida. People and viewpoints are different, even when they live in the same state or even city.

The masking issue is not just a Florida or Southern state issue.

Before the assumption is made that I'm anti vaxx and don't have the shot, let me say I do. And yes, I still wear a mask even though I'm vaccinated.
 

VRBeauty

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Everything Doberman said. In the end, it’s their body and their suicide. I’m growing daily less willing to wear a mask to save the lives of such people. Tens of thousands of them, if not hundreds of thousands again, will be dead by winter’s end.

I am willing to wear a mask, even though I am vaccinated, to help protect those who cannot be vaccinated and to make life a little easier for those around them. I am however wearing a mask less frequently by applying some of what we’ve learned in the past year about airborne transmission where/when permissible (indoor mask mandates have just been reinstated where I live). For example, don’t normally wear a mask outdoors thanks to dilution. I don’t generally wear a mask when I’m just dashing in and out of a relatively uncrowded space, since dwell time and concentrations are both factors in transmission. I do wear a mask when shopping - and I still avoid crowded indoor situations, with or without a mask. But as I said, we now have indoor mask mandates here once again.

And my motives aren’t entirely altruistic, either - I have no desire to take my chances with Covid. I’d rather minimize the odds than play the odds.
 

missy

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Masking and social distancing even after being vaccinated are critical. It decreases the possibilities of vaccine resistant strains. We're not just trying to prevent the spread, but the evolution of novel variants.


It's imperative to vaccinate as many people as fast as possible and as globally as possible and to maintain masking and social distancing to ensure rare variants have a chance to be suppressed instead of spread and to end this pandemic.
 

ItsMainelyYou

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98% of the young kids will not die from the virus even if they are tested positive it is up to the parents to decide if they want their children to be vaccinated. The vaccinated aren't as safe as they think. They are among the spreaders too. This virus isn't gonna end soon. What variant will come after Delta? nobody knows... Idunno1.gif

And to reiterate
snip:
The Indonesian Pediatric society reported that 100 children have died of coronavirus each week during the month of July. Children now make up 12.5 per cent of total infections, with many of them under 5, the society told the New York Times. The Indonesian Covid-19 Task Force’s recorded more than 700 deaths among children up to mid-July since the start of the pandemic.

That 2% was from a different variant: Alpha.
There are 73 million children just in the US, worst case 2% of them would be 1.5 million dead.
We have a new (worse) variant in town: Delta
Delta is 50% more contagious.

Higher percentage of kids serious ill and dying already.
Lambda is on the way.
We have a very good idea of how this can go, we've seen something similar.
snip:
In 1918, a new influenza virus emerged. During this same time period World War I was taking place. The conditions of World War I (overcrowding and global troop movement) helped the 1918 flu spread. The vulnerability of healthy young adults and the lack of vaccines and treatments created a major public health crisis, causing at least 50 million deaths worldwide, including approximately 675,000 in the United States. Below is a historical timeline of major events that took place during this time period.

We have almost as many deaths this time in the US at 625,000 officially, in HALF the time.
The world has somewhere between 4-14million deaths or more, so far.
This is nowhere near over, unfortunately. Expect another year or more of most dire outcome if 1918 is any indicator. Then it'll be a yearly booster.
The 1918 flu is still here we just call it H1N1 now.
And children are not automatically 'safe'.
Vaccines at this point with the transmissibility of D variant won't keep you from infection. That ship has sailed.
They will almost certainly keep you from dying of said infection.
 

PinkAndBlueBling

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We are not all "*******s" in Florida. People and viewpoints are different, even when they live in the same state or even city.

Did I say it was just Florida or you? If you're in an airport and not following the masking policies while sitting and talking with others, and spewing your germs, you are indeed an a-hole. Florida or not.
 

voce

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I took my car to the dealership for service. No one, NO ONE was masked (besides me), and no one was asking about vaccination status to those unmasked. This is in a county where 43.1% of the population, according to the LA Times, is fully vaccinated.

I am disheartened, and I was wearing a mask to protect myself, too, because I cannot just assume every person not wearing a mask is fully vaccinated. If they're not going to mask up in public then I'm going to treat everyone not wearing a mask as contaminated and contagious.
 

AprilBaby

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@DF, you have dozens of reasons to not get the vaccine. Each time you exaggerate some statistic to fit your narrative. Why not just be real and say you won’t because you are a conspiracy theorist. I’m beginning to think that or dementia is setting in.
 
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westofhere

Guest
A sobering thought: by year’s end, Covid will have killed as many Americans (700k) as AIDS has in nearly 40 years.

The bizarrest thought: this winter there will be a mass die-off of far right conservatives which their own media has engineered solely for ratings/ad revenue. And of course pillow sales.
 

Asscherhalo_lover

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I took my car to the dealership for service. No one, NO ONE was masked (besides me), and no one was asking about vaccination status to those unmasked. This is in a county where 43.1% of the population, according to the LA Times, is fully vaccinated.

I am disheartened, and I was wearing a mask to protect myself, too, because I cannot just assume every person not wearing a mask is fully vaccinated. If they're not going to mask up in public then I'm going to treat everyone not wearing a mask as contaminated and contagious.

I went to get a haircut yesterday, no one was wearing a mask. Only one gentleman in there (barbershop) said he had the vaccine, he asked the others if they did. NONE of them did. I was sitting there waiting, wearing my K95. I chimed in that I was wearing my mask to protect them in case I had it since 4 (yes 4!!!!) people at my school had tested positive that week. Wouldn't you know it, they all gave out an anxious chuckle and either put on a mask or hastily left. Delta is not to be messed with.
 

Dancing Fire

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Bottom line is people just don't get the seriousness of this Delta variant. It's not a freaking conspiracy or overhyped BS. It's happening because we are stupid and careless. Period. Go ahead and be an idiot, but please stay TF away from me and my family.
So aren't you an idiot for traveling to Aruba and Fla? why did you risk your health? :confused:
 

Dancing Fire

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Yes, vaccinated people can still catch and spread the virus and some are hospitalized, and some may die. But that article says it is 2.44% of the COVID deaths in Illinois in that time period. Which means 97.56% of the deaths were people who were NOT vaccinated. So it seems to me you are pointing to an article that contradicts your arguments. That statistic only proves that vaccinated people are much less likely to die. If the story changes and it becomes closer to 50/50 then your argument holds water, but otherwise, it does not.
Even if it was they will not tell you the real statistic.
 

lilmosun

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While I understand that there are uncertainties with the vaccine, we can easily the same in terms of the long-term impact of Covid. Just a thought.

Caring for my 85 year old vaccinated mother, I have never stopped wearing a mask at indoor public places (nor has she) knowing the vaccines were never 100% effective. Everyone has different risk tolerance and you have no idea what that is for the person standing next to you. The exception is when we go out to eat where we avoid small crowded restaurants - usually choosing to eat off hours or outdoors.

The first couple of weeks after the mask mandate was first lifted, most people still wore masks wherever we went. But each week we saw more without masks to the point where it was the majority.

This week, at the same routine places and no changes to the mask mandate repeal, I've seen a huge shift back to wearing masks - to the point where there I've only seen a few people without them. To be honest, it was a big relief.
 
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