.9 versus 1.0 size

[danoboston]

Hello Everyone -

New to this forum and in the process of buying an engagement ring. I just purchased the book "How to Buy a Diamond" - and the author mentioned that it makes a lot of sense to go for a .9 rather than a 1 carat in terms of price. I guess my question is whether or not this difference makes a noticeable difference in terms of size? Can an untrained person tell the difference? Also, in addition to searching the web, I visited a local jeweler that my family has used for many years and gave him some rough specs (1 carat, G color, "well" (his term) cut, SI1 or better), he is going to call his cutter and get back to me - does this sound normal?

Thanks in advance for all of your insight - dan

 

[oldminer]

It all sounds normal. You get more diamond for your money by buying a .90ct size. However, you also get more for your money buying a 1.00ct size versus buying a 1.25ct size. You get what you pay for. Each increment of size has a further price jump.

Many 1.00ct diamonds are poorly cut and way too deep. They seem reasonably priced, but their diameter is as smaller or smaller than a well cut .90ct stone. Don't let weight get in the way of making a purchase of the right stone for you.

 

[optimized]

Hi there,

Well, I can tell you that the difference between 0.9 and 1.0 carat is indeed very small. All else being equal, it will be far less than a millimeter difference in width! Also worth considering, the "spread" of the stone (the width as compared to the weight) will have a lot to do with the overall cut. It's entirely possible for the 0.9 stone to actually be wider than the 1.0 carat stone, depending on the respective proportions of the cut stones. This is where the geometry of the diamond becomes so important. The table, depth and girdle percentages, and crown and pavilion angles will have a huge part in determining how wide the diamond is in relation to its weight. You'll have to do some research to determine if these numbers all add up to a brilliant stone with good spread. This site is a great place to be in that regard, so hit the tutorials for some good information on these factors.

As far as your dealer making some calls to find a diamond for you, this is quite common in the industry. Dealers often can't afford to buy large quantities of expensive stones on hand for customers. Every diamond a jeweler buys to have on hand in the store is essentially money "tied up" in inventory that likely could be used better elsewhere. Although most jewelers try to keep a nice selection in stock for customers to look at and purchase, it's very common practice to bring diamonds in from a wholesaler or another source for a specific customer. In fact, the industry has a pretty streamlined "memo" (lending) system in place to allow diamonds to travel from place to place as they're being shown. The fact that your jeweler doesn't have a stone in exactly your criteria shouldn't cause you concern.

Hope this helps.

-Tim

 

[danoboston]

Thanks this is great advice. I am assuming it is not unreasonable to ask the dealer (he is a friend of my father) for this information? I think with that information I should be able to figure out the spread etc...

 

[optimized]

As with any transaction involving "friends of the family," it depends on the individual as to whether they would take offense at you asking for a lot of information about a potential diamond. From a purely "consumer" standpoint, you have every right (almost a duty) to ask for as much information as possible in order to make a decision, but if a family acquaintance feels like you should "take his word for it," there's no telling how he'll react to more questions. My opinion is that it's in your interest to get as much information as you possibly can in order to make an educated assessment, but your unique situation may have to be your guide.

It's also important to note that there's a chance your dealer won't know some of the information that might be useful to you. If he has a diamond with GIA certification alone (the most common documentation), the certificate will give overall dimensions, depth/table percentages, and a girdle thickness rating (i.e. "thin, medium, thick," etc.), but won't have the angles of the crown and pavilion. As it turns out, these angles are pretty darned important to the overall visual performance of the diamond, but as yet the GIA doesn't include that information in their reports. Some other labs do include the information (the AGS is a great example), but GIA certs do not, so if your jeweler has just the GIA cert to go on he may be unable to give some of the information you would like.

-Tim

 

[jetcaptain]

You might want to check out www.goodoldgold.com. They have a lot of choices around one carat, and lots of pictures and specifications to use for comparison. Jonathan gets excellent reviews from his customers. You might even find exactly what you're looking for there, but even if you don't, it's a good place to shop.

 

[Gladiator]

I second checking out www.goodoldgold.com. Jonathan is a class act. Don't get caught up between small differences in carat size. I recently purchased a 1.52 carat J stone form GOG, and while it was a beautiful stone, I couldn't get past the slight yellow tint. I went down to a 1.43 carat H and it made all the difference for me. Face up, I was hard pressed to tell a difference in size between the two. Only from a side view was the 1.52 noticeably bigger. Buy a stone that you like and is beautiful, don't worry about finding an "exact" size. Good luck in your search.

 

[optimized]

You know, at the risk of speaking out of turn here, I personally find it to sometimes be a little inappropriate for folks on these boards to direct other posters to specific sites when the original poster gave no indication that he was looking for a dealer. I know these boards are full of folks who have had great experiences with certain dealers (I'm a satisfied customer of one of the popular dealers too), as well as populated by dealers themselves, but I for one would like to see the topics that start out as technical questions stay about technical questions and not turn into ads for specific dealers.

In this case, danoboston simply asked a question about the visual difference between a 0.90 and a 1.0 carat diamond, and whether it was common for a local jeweler to have to order in diamonds for him to see. He didn't really ask for suggestions as to where to shop for a diamond, and while the posts mentioning Jonathan didn't specifically say "buy from him," my reading of them definitely makes it sound like an endorsement to buy from goodoldgold rather than just glean information from the site (which I will be the first to admit is a wonderfully informative source for diamond tips).

Like I said, I don't mean to offend anyone at all, I just really like the forums here and the topics that revolve around the technical side of gemology. There seem to be plenty of topics about "where to buy" already...

-Tim

 

[jetcaptain]

----------------
On 12/29/2002 3:56:30 AM

You know, at the risk of speaking out of turn here, I personally find it to sometimes be a little inappropriate for folks on these boards to direct other posters to specific sites when the original poster gave no indication that he was looking for a dealer. I know these boards are full of folks who have had great experiences with certain dealers (I'm a satisfied customer of one of the popular dealers too), as well as populated by dealers themselves, but I for one would like to see the topics that start out as technical questions stay about technical questions and not turn into ads for specific dealers.

In this case, danoboston simply asked a question about the visual difference between a 0.90 and a 1.0 carat diamond, and whether it was common for a local jeweler to have to order in diamonds for him to see. He didn't really ask for suggestions as to where to shop for a diamond, and while the posts mentioning Jonathan didn't specifically say "buy from him," my reading of them definitely makes it sound like an endorsement to buy from goodoldgold rather than just glean information from the site (which I will be the first to admit is a wonderfully informative source for diamond tips).

Like I said, I don't mean to offend anyone at all, I just really like the forums here and the topics that revolve around the technical side of gemology. There seem to be plenty of topics about "where to buy" already...

-Tim
----------------

Tim,

You make a good point, and there's no offense taken on my part. I recommend the Good Old Gold web site to others because it offers so much more to use for COMPARISON than many, if not most, of the other internet web sites. I didn't buy my diamond from Good Old Gold. I had already found my diamond at a local jeweler before I knew about Good Old Gold. But I did make extensive use out of the information on their web site before I finalized my purchase. That is why I suggested the person that started this thread should visit Good Old Gold. There he can SEE for himself the difference between a 0.9 and a 1.0. I guess I thought that might mean more to him to see it for himself than just to have several of us write "There's not really much difference." I feel comfortable suggesting that others educate themselves and comparison shop at Good Old Gold. Where they choose to purchase is up to them.

 

[Gladiator]

Tim- what is wrong with sharing information and as one member signs off, "Buy informed". Dan is new to the forum, obviously has some questions regarding diamonds, and has searched the web already. I think GOG is an excellent site to learn about diamonds and buy informed, whether you buy from them or not. Jonathan acknowledges people will read his site and buy elsewhere and he has no problem with that. No one said go to GOG and check out this specific diamond etc, and buy it. I was merely giving Dan my personal experience with small carat size differences and insight to a great, informative website that may mitigate some of his concerns about purchasing a diamond. If another site did it as well as GOG, I would have directed him there, regardless of where I bought my diamond. Forums are about education and sharing, so why not share with Dan a site that does an awesome job of educating the consumer? Peace and Happy New Year.

 

[TheRock]

I'm glad Optimized spoke up in this regard. I, too, have been turned off more than once by initially informative threads heading into Ad Land. Whether done unconsciously or not, it's a practice that dilutes the usefulness of the forum.

 

[PoopEater]

Have you guys not read the website www.goodoldgold.com? It can't get any more "informative" than that, fellas. Get off your high horses.

 

[Gladiator]

Maybe it's me, but I don't understand how a link to a site full of knowledge, information, and education can dilute the usefulness of this forum? It just so happens that the guy who created the site sells diamonds- big deal. Dan is free to check out the site or not. As a novice to diamonds, I found the site extremely useful in learning about diamonds, and thankfully found it because somone mentioned it in a thread I was reading. I got my education and information from GOG, and considered 3 places to purchase my diamond from. In the end GOG just happened to have what I felt was the best diamond for my particular needs. If the thread had something to do with appraising, I would have mentioned www.consumersgemlab.com, not because I want to advertise for them, but because of the quality and content of the site with respect to appraising. Education and information sharing does not equal advertising. No one here is twisting Dan's arm to buy his diamond from GOG, it wasn't even mentioned.

 

[jetcaptain]

Tim,

Do you have a financial interest in the diamond or jewelry business?

 

[optimized]

Hello again,

As I mentioned in my first post, I certainly don't want to ruffle any feathers (thanks for the reassuring comments that my post was taken in the intended way, jetcaptain). It's just that when I first read the two posts about GOG I replied to, they seemed to me to be endorsing GOG as a place to buy a diamond. jetcaptain noted that Jonathan gets excellent reviews from his customers. You might even find exactly what you're looking for there..., which is a true statement, but sounds an awful lot like a sales endorsement. Gladiator went on to talk about his great experience buying a diamond from GOG, and while his post did directly address danoboston's size question, it still IMO came off as more of a customer testimonial rather than a suggestion to just surf the great information contained on the site. I think I would have never even commented on this at all if the posts had been to the effect of "go to GOG and check out the great section on the Four Cs of diamond buying," without mentioning what a great place GOG is to buy from.

For the record, I will be the first to admit that Jonathan's work on the Good Old Gold site is definitely among the very best sources of information about diamonds available on the Internet, and I would urge anyone who wants to learn an awful lot about diamonds to definitely check it out. I believe I've read every page of the "diamond education" portion of the site, and found much of it to be extremely useful and informative. But, I do sort of draw a distinction between the "education" portions of the site and the "this is why you should by from me" portions (which are scattered liberally throughout the site). I fully realize (as everyone should) that ultimately GOG is a sales tool for Jonathan, and he has every right to pitch his wares on the site. But, you'd be hard-pressed to convince me that the site would exist if there weren't a diamond dealer trying to sell diamonds behind the effort, and I think folks should keep that in mind when directing others to it. I also fully realize that there are numerous threads on the forum that ask for suggestions on where to shop for a diamond, and in those threads it is absolutely appropriate to talk about great personal experiences or great vendors. I would just prefer it if there was less crossover...

Again, I didn't mean to offend anyone or question anyone's sincerity with my comments, and it's entirely possible I reacted sensitively (possibly because I was having such a fine time trying to help danoboston). I certainly didn't want this thread to devolve into a debate about the merits of the GOG site, as I agree with all who value the site's information. I just wanted to express one of the very few things I sometimes don't like about these boards. It's all just my $0.02....

-Tim

 

[optimized]

Hi jetcaptain,

To answer your question, no, I don't have any financial interest in the industry at all. I'm just a guy who recently went through the trauma of having to select and purchase a ring for my fiancé, and have grown very fond of this forum. In fact, I actually enjoyed the research so much that I have toyed with the idea of a career change, so maybe if you asked me that question some time in the future the answer might be different!

If you're interested in a very wordy narrative about my experiences, feel free to check out my recent thread about my diamond adventure:



Btw, I'm starting to seriously consider immortalizing all of my newfound knowledge in a diamond information website of my own. Time will tell whether that pans out...

-Tim

[/u]

 

[jetcaptain]

Tim,

I asked about any potential ties to the diamond industry just to make sure there wasn't a hint of professional jealousy involved. Like you, I am just a plain old consumer. As you know, people come and go on this forum all the time. Sometimes it's hard to tell who is who, and how much advice is appropriate to offer. I have offered my opinion on various threads where it seemed to be the reasonable thing to do, but always just as one consumer to another. But if I can point somebody in the right direction and let them find the information they need on their own, they are much better off than if I just give them my opinion. Heck, for many of us, the search is part of the fun, especially if you end up completely confident knowing that, in the end, you got a great diamond at a fair price, no matter where you ended up buying it. I'll admit that I have pointed others towards Good Old Gold several times. I just think that Jonathan's marketing strategy is more consumer-friendly than those other sites that, although they offer 50,000 diamonds to choose from, don't tell you enough about any of them for you to make a really informed decision. Yes, I know that no internet site, no matter how helpful, will ever take the place of seeing a diamond in person. But with Good Old Gold, you have a very good idea of what to expect when your diamond arrives. When you're spending that much money, you don't want any unpleasant surprises. And even though you might be able to get your money back from one of those other sites, it's a HASSLE! Unfortunately I learned that lesson the hard way. But the bottom line is, a consumer should always shop all the various legitimate sources if they are truly interested in getting the best deal. An independent professional opinion is always a good idea, and in many instances it's unquestionably essential. I just happen to believe that Good Old Gold gives somebody who is searching for a diamond a good place to start. Who knows where their search will take them?

 

[danoboston]

I have checked out GOG and found it to a very useful and informative site...even if it does go over the top a bit on the self marketing. This brings up another question - I have heard from other places that bluenile.com is a pretty trustworthy site. Are they able to provide the same in-depth information about the diamonds if you call them up? Or do they only have the GIA cert info? This board is a great source of information - thanks again to all that have responded.

 

[optimized]

Hi again danoboston,

This little thread you started went a little haywire, eh? Oh well, I take responsibility for that. It's been informative anyway though, I suspect.

As concerns BlueNile, they are basically the 800 LB. gorilla of the online diamond dealers right now. Sort of the "amazon.com" of the industry, as it were. I've never bought anything from them, but by all accounts they are certainly a legitimate vendor and have served thousands. In fact, they are one of the few profitable high-volume online diamond companies around right now.

Although I didn't buy from them, I did do an awful lot of shopping at the BlueNile site, and IMO they have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. On the plus side, they have a very nice site, and I really like their "Interactive Diamond Search" applet, which allows you to set some basic criteria to reach a list of diamonds that can then be fine-tuned to narrow the selection using nifty little slider bars on the page. By all accounts I've seen they offer just what they claim, which is a fairly huge selection, decent service (an excellent BizRate rating), fair pricing, and nice little things like free shipping (not uncommon in this business), a pretty hardwood ring box, and other niceties.

On the other end of the scale, they are more of a high-volume dealer, so they inevitably suffer from a less "personalized" level of service, and I suspect they have more duds in their stock (that they pitch right along with the good diamonds) than some of the smaller, more selective dealers. It's not a criticism, really. They have chosen to become a high-volume dealer, and that's one of the caveats of running large numbers of diamonds through the system.

Another thing that I personally found lacking (and what you inquired about) is the amount of ancillary information about the diamonds they sell. Typically, a diamond listed on the BlueNile site will have just the basic diamond information listed (the information contained in a GIA report). Most of their diamonds have scanned copies of the relevant cert available (GIA or AGS), but that's about it. If the stone is accompanied by a GIA report (which is the certification I personally chose to require with my purchase), that's all you'll be able to determine through the website. If it has an AGS report, you might at least be able to determine the relevant angles (crown & pavilion) by looking at the document scans, but in my experience on the site this information is sometimes very difficult to make out on the rather hazy scans, which makes it quite difficult to tell if it'll be a good performer (using the Holloway Cut Adviser or other method).

Also, quite a few of the smaller diamonds on the BlueNile site are accompanied by a GIA "Diamond Dossier," which is a sort of abridged "Diamond Report." A Diamond Dossier has most of the information contained in a Diamond Report (and is issued using the same rigorous GIA standards), but lacks the diamond plot, which is the area of the report that contains a graphic representation of the inclusions and their physical locations in the diamond. For my money, a Diamond Report is a necessity, if only to confirm that the diamond you get (or the ring you have cleaned, sized or repaired at a later date) is the diamond you originally purchased. Laser inscription is nice, but being able to physically identify your diamond under a microscope by matching the inclusions to the plot is even better.

The other tools that I really like though, like the BrillianceScope, Firescope/Idealscope, Megascope/Sarin reports, hearts and arrows, etc., are not available at all through the site. Although many a fine diamond has been obtained for decades without all this nifty extra data, I really found these tools useful in my recent search for an engagement ring, and would have been hesitant to commit to a purchase without them.

One thing that may appeal to you, if you do decide to buy from BlueNile, is the "Signature Collection," which is BlueNile's attempt at a branded "super-ideal." I spent a little while not long ago looking at the AGS certs attached to them, and punching some numbers into the HCA, and found the Signature diamonds to typically be quite good performers based on Gary's formulae. They have a premium price attached to them too, though, so a lot of the benefit of going with a high-volume dealer may be lost by buying their premium line.

So, there you have my opinion. I'd encourage you to do a search of the forums here, at Diamondtalk.com, and at BizRate for testimonials from people who have actually purchased diamonds from them if you're seriously interested, but I think it's safe to say that if you're looking a high-volume dealer, they are certainly a logical possibility.

-Tim

 

[Mara]

BlueNile normally has GIA certs on most of their diamonds, a few have AGS. For the ones with GIA certs, they normally will not be able to get you more specifics than what is listed on the certificate (I asked while searching and couldn't get more info). However, on their Blue Nile Signature Diamond line (which they tout as being all only the best/ideal cuts), these normally come with AGS certs which will have the crown and pavilion angles that you will need to plug them into the HCA and/or do other analysis to make your purchasing decision.

To add my two cents into the convo on 'advertising' of dealers..personally..most of us started out here as complete newbies, knowing nothing about diamonds as the average consumers we are. The forum has been very helpful in educating us, but for myself particularly, I found GOG and other sites with much helpful information on them to be even more invaluable than the forum in how they break it down for you into simpler terms. In my searches on the internet for diamond info, only GOG and SuperbCert (I think its virtcert.com) consistently have crown and angle pavilion information on their diamonds, as well as pictures of the certificates, diamond closeups, brilliance reports, etc etc..the list goes on. BlueNile, Diamond.Com, even Dirtcheapdiamonds.com and diamondwholesale.cc don't have that much info on their stones. They require an email or phone contact in order to give more info, and they don't always have that info either as they are mostly working with brokered stones. Not that the last two aren't great, many have purchased there and been happy, and we were considering a DCD diamond ourselves very seriously before buying offline. However things like the brilliance reports, and closeups of the diamonds themselves to me are invaluable now that I know more.

But what all of this means to me is condensed down into one word: 'information'. Obviously I have my own opinions on who and where to buy from. I'm sure Dan does too. Chances are he is not going to ditch his family friend dealer and buy from GOG. However, someone posting their great experience with GOG is not necessarily advertising to buy, but rather saying, hey check them out for at least info and maybe a purchase. Big deal! Chances are very good that Dan has a mind of his own and he can make an informed decision. He sought out this forum and asked one question. Giving him more information than he requested can only be a good thing when looking to make a purchase of something of this magnitude. Now if Jonathan/Rhino posted saying 'hey check out my site for lots of diamonds' that would be different and there have been other posts addressing this issue in the last 2 weeks. But for the average consumer to be happy about their purchase and want to share the news and possible savings with a fellow consumer, that's just being helpful.

That said..I definitely second checking out GOG and virtcert.com to get more information on what you SHOULD be looking for when you purchase a diamond. Also it helps to have some pricing information and/or comparisons under your belt for then negotiations you will be involved with offline. That is if you want to 'buy informed'. Otherwise, just buy on sight and family connections alone. Nothing wrong with that! But if you want more info, learn all you can, then make the educated decision you can be happy with.

Also check out BlueNile's Signature line to see what they consider ideal stones. Some of the finds might be a little interesting. Plus the #'s into the HCA to see what you get. I got a random smattering of 1's and some 2 and 3's..not necessarily 'ideal' marks for those who believe in the HCA. BN also mark these stones up a little more due to the distinction.

My post might be more than the original poster asked for, but I definitely think that the general idea on this forum for the average posters such as myself with no ties to the jewelry industry is to be helpful in whatever way they see fit to people just like ourselves, offering them up more information rather than less. Whatever they decide to do with that information and/or suggestions is really then up to them!

Happy Holidays!

 

[Mara]

Tim--funny our posts must have crossed in transit..its interesting that you find BN's Signature diamonds to be general good performers. I too did the plug in of #'s into the HCA when we were diamond searching and found that a few of the ones that looked very good on paper were actually 2 and 3 numbers on the HCA--in the very good/price is right range. So in the end I concluded that really..buying a Signature Ideal is not necessarily diamond buying for dummies as BN makes it sound (e.g. their wording makes me think that I could go there and know nothing and walk away with a .2 score HCA super ideal AGS 000 diamond every time)..but rather you still do need to be somewhat informed in order to cull out the true bests from the goods in their Signature collection. This was over a month ago though so maybe the ones in their collection now are better specimens than what I was viewing.

 

[optimized]

Hi Mara,

Without totally rehashing my original thoughts, most of the reason for my first post about the GOG comments are contained in my post in this thread dated 12/29/2002 5:11:06 PM, and can be summed up with the quote, "I think I would have never even commented on this at all if the posts had been to the effect of 'go to GOG and check out the great section on the Four Cs of diamond buying,' without mentioning what a great place GOG is to buy from." I fully realize that danoboston is certainly able to make up his own mind about where to buy (sorry to write about you in the third-person, danoboston), but IMO that doesn't mean he should be getting unsolicited (by him or the dealer) endorsements of dealers. I too had a fantastic buying experience online and would recommend my dealer to anybody who asked, but I have not mentioned in this thread from whom I bought (although you just did in your first post ). I didn't recommend danoboston check out the dealer I bought from because he didn't ask. A lot of threads are started by folks who do ask for suggestions on where to shop, and in those threads I would be right there giving my thoughts on where I received great service. But in this case, I found it to be a non-sequitur to jump from "what's the difference between .9 and 1.0" to "go check out the great diamonds and service at GOG." Going back to my quote, I don't think I would have even said anything if I hadn't interpreted the posts as being endorsements to buy from GOG (not just get information) when danoboston didn't ask for suggestions on where to buy. I really hope this part of the thread dies soon since I never intended for it to overwhelm the actual topic, and I certainly like the GOG site, but I will continue to try to clarify my position as necessary.

Btw, VirtCert is an independent service that allows any subscribing dealer to list information about their gems on the VirtCert servers. They don't actually deal in diamonds, just in web tools and web server space for diamond dealers.

As far as BlueNile's Signature diamonds go, in all honesty I was only really able to check out a handful of stones because so many of the AGA certs were very blurry on my monitor and I was finding it difficult to read the angles reliably. The five or six that I DID get good numbers on though all scored well (1.0 or under), and I do remember that one of them scored a 0.3, but by no means was my little exercise an "exhaustive evaluation" of the Signature line. Maybe I just got lucky.

Since reading your post I went back and randomly tried three more of the BlueNile Signature diamonds (meaning, the first three I happened to click on that I could read), and they scored 0.8, 0.7, and 0.8, so it's hard to knock those three based on the HCA. Now, as we all know, the HCA isn't the end all and be all of diamond performance, but I know I certainly incorporated it into my buying decision.

-Tim

 

[sturkiej]

HELLO ALL! Just wanted to say that it is probably a good idea to try to compare diamonds in the same range of the four c's at many many places, I made a purchase from Blue Nile and was very pleased with it and with the appraisal that I got, but before I made the purchase I took the numbers from it and compared it to other diamonds at many different sites including some of the one's previously mentioned and I concluded that I would get just as good of a deal as anywhere else. I am not sure if you mentioned in your first message whether you were purchasing a round diamond or another shape, but if you are buying a pear or something like that be sure that you see it in person, you can't always go by the numbers!!!