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Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
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For the benefit of all those interested in cut quality and new developments, this is the text from this link.
http://www.eightstar.com/scope/

I would not dare post the images refered to - so look at the link yourself.

"These pictures were taken using Firescope technology. The diamonds in the top row were graded AGS 0 ideal cut. Picture number 5 has "excellent" symmetry according to the GIA. The truth about how a diamond is cut does not come from external dimensions and comparison to an ideal mathematical model. The last three diamonds are not very brilliant and you can see it instantly with Firescope technology.

The Firescope was invented in Japan after 7 years of research that began in 1977. It allowed the first look at a diamond''s brilliance and optical symmetry. It shows you instantly what gemological reports cannot about how a diamond is performing. It allows you to instantly determine how good or bad a diamond''s cut is.

Light from beneath the diamond strikes a red reflector and enters the crown from all angles above the girdle. Where you see white, light does not return through the crown (no brilliance). Light pink shows that light entered the diamond from low angles. Darker pink from medium angles. Red from higher angles and black from 80 to 90 degrees. Reflections from light pink to black, therefore, indicate brilliance. White is lost light return, lack of brilliance. The greater the optical symmetry, the more you can expect fire from the diamond.

You can use this technology to:
• Compare diamonds to each other instantly
• Purchase better diamonds faster than ever before
• Demonstrate the superiority of what you sell
• Improve your image as a professional
• Recover cost of device with one or two good buys
The SymmetriScope is made in America under the direction of Richard von Sternberg. Richard opened EightStar Diamond Company to cut EightStar diamonds in 1990 using the Firescope to guide and perfect the cutting. No person in the Western world enjoys Richard''s experience with this technology. Improvements have been made to the SymmetriScope that have tailored it to the American jewelry market. It has a stronger light source, is easily portable, is made with metal instead of only plastic and will accommodate larger diamonds than the Firescope. It was the goal of von Sternberg to put this superior instrument into the jewelry industry before a mass-marketed cheap imitation began to appear that might make inferior diamonds look the same as superior ones the way hearts and arrows viewers do.

Your customers can see more in the SymmetriScope than a master gemologist without one.

Hearts and arrows viewers only show you the main facets of the diamond, masking 2/3 of the stone. The SymmetriScope shows you EVERY facet of the diamond, illuminating for you the entire light path within each stone.
Hand held imitations now being marketed are inconsistent and unprofessional by comparison. Stones viewed in them must be held in tweezers and appear different depending on the color of the tweezers. They lack the exactness of the SymmetriScope, only allow you to view one diamond at a time and cannot, therefore, be used effectively to compare one to another.

What you get:
• SymmetriScope
• AC adapter (will also work with batteries)
• Easy to use manual showing what you see in diamonds, how to grade them optically
• Unconditional one year warranty

How much it costs:
• $1,200 (includes shipping)
 
Quote The Firescope was invented in Japan after 7 years of research that began in 1977.

What 8* never seem to acknowledge is that Mr. Okuda developed the idea and some other people in Japan used it to develop the FS.

Quote It allowed the first look at a diamond's brilliance and optical symmetry.
So in actual fact it allowed the second look because I have seen the brochure from Okuda’s instrument, that was far more sophisticated and elaborate, and worked on a microscope.

Quote Light pink shows that light entered the diamond from low angles. Wrong, light pink is a mixture of leakage and upper red light return.

Quote Darker pink from medium angles. Red from higher angles and black from 80 to 90 degrees.
From 75 to 90 degrees actually.
Quote Reflections from light pink to black, therefore, indicate brilliance.
Wrong again, light pink = partial light return, and black is no light return, it is the darkness an observer sees when they view a diamond face up in difussed lighting; it is as a result of a reflection of their own head.

Quote The greater the optical symmetry, the more you can expect fire from the diamond.
Why? How is it that I see a lot of fire in really off symmetry old mine and old cut diamonds?

Quote Purchase better diamonds faster than ever before
I would like to see anyone keep up with me with an ideal-scope
Quote No person in the Western world enjoys Richard's experience with this technology. Australia is usually considered to be a Western nation, especially by terrorists.

Quote Improvements have been made to the SymmetriScope that have tailored it to the American jewelry market. It has a stronger light source, is easily portable, is made with metal instead of only plastic and will accommodate larger diamonds than the Firescope. It was the goal of von Sternberg to put this superior instrument into the jewelry industry before a mass-marketed cheap imitation began to appear that might make inferior diamonds look the same as superior ones the way hearts and arrows viewers do.

Assuming it is the same device that I have seen several times, it has a weaker light source and black side walls compared to the original Fire Scope. If the Ideal-Scope is a mass-marketed cheap imitation it certainly does not make inferior diamonds look the same as superior ones, and I sincerely hope that that is not your claim Richard?

Quote Hand held imitations now being marketed are inconsistent and unprofessional by comparison. Stones viewed in them must be held in tweezers and appear different depending on the color of the tweezers.

As they all well know at Eightstar we displayed a very inexpensive fixed (but shirt pocket portable) light source at the Vegas fair. And really the color of the tweezers? You can do better folks, if you try harder.

Quote They lack the exactness of the SymmetriScope, only allow you to view one diamond at a time and cannot, therefore, be used effectively to compare one to another.

The portable light sources make this easy, and since this device is being marketed to the trade - it is really very easy for an experianced person to pick up and look at or show a consumer diamonds very quickly with the ideal-scope.

Would any Ideal-Scope owners like us to supply these fixed light sources? They are less than $20.

There are however lots of things I do agree with in the description in the previous post, and in a way it is rather complimentary that the good people at Eightstar Diamonds see fit to bless the ideal-scope with so much attention.
 
Why would Australia be considered a western nation? I think that Australia is as western as Japan or Hong Kong.
 
Doc I think "Western" refers to values, morals, politics, etc as being "western", but I could be wrong. Rather than western as in "west" on a compass
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Wow, Gary Holloway once again flaming the Eightstar company and all it represents. I am shocked by this new development! If only Marty Haske frequented this board as he did a couple months back on diamondtalk.com where he already addressed your verbal bashing of 8* and relentless pushing of the ACA brand. For a good read folks here you go:

http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35156&pagenumber=1
 
Hi Richard...Are you just being sarcastic...You don't have to sign in to diamond talk to read the thread..Here is a link if you would really like to read the thread...Very interesting and legnthy but worth the read!!!

Here's the Link...Just Click on It!

eightstars and firescopes: Separating Fact from Fiction

-Josh RIoux
Sitka, Alaska
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On 8/19/2003 4:23:22 PM 8*flash wrote:

Wow, Gary Holloway once again flaming the Eightstar company and all it represents. I am shocked by this new development! If only Marty Haske frequented this board as he did a couple months back on diamondtalk.com where he already addressed your verbal bashing of 8* and relentless pushing of the ACA brand. For a good read folks here you go:

http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35156&pagenumber=1
----------------

The main thing I learned about Marty Haske was that he is on the Eightstar payroll. Tough to throw your weight around when you're taking payola.
 
Richard,
----------------
I'd love to read the thread in question, but was banned from DiamondTalk and can't get in to read it.
----------------
You have to delete your existing DT cookie. You can do it by cleaning up all the cookies (Internet Options dialog, first tab, if you're using IE) or going into your cookies folder and delete it separately (this might be a bit tricky though). Should you be interested I can email you instructions.
 
8*flash,
----------------
Wow, Gary Holloway once again flaming the Eightstar company and all it represents. I am shocked by this new development!
----------------
I'm sorry but I reread Garry's post and haven't found any flaming. It looks more like a fair analysis of the statements made on 8* website. Please point me out where you see flaming.

In fact Garry's just doing another free promotion for 8* as this thread will generate some free traffic toward their site and 8* should be thankful for that
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On 8/20/2003 11:43:16 AM Rank Amateur wrote:



The main thing I learned about Marty Haske was that he is on the Eightstar payroll. Tough to throw your weight around when you're taking payola.


----------------

Everyone has to make a living. Don't forget that Garry is trying to sell Idealscopes himself and has published some promotional articles to that effect in a couple of journals.

I don't know Marty and have never had any contact with him, but I do know him to be a serious scientist. Lots of scientists accept funding from businesses that have a vested interest in the outcome of their research. There are ways of insulating their work and the fact of such funding doesn't automatically disqualify their opinions.
 

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On 8/20/2003 12:37:10 PM leonid wrote:

In fact Garry's just doing another free promotion for 8* as this thread will generate some free traffic toward their site and 8* should be thankful for that
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Maybe. But my reading of that DT thread seems to indicate that RvS and 8* adherents don't take criticism very well.

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Maybe. But my reading of that DT thread seems to indicate that RvS and 8* adherents don't take criticism very well.
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Don't worry LawGem. RvS told me a while ago that there is no bad advertisement
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On 8/20/2003 11:43:16 AM Rank Amateur wrote:

----------------

On 8/19/2003 4:23:22 PM 8*flash wrote:


Wow, Gary Holloway once again flaming the Eightstar company and all it represents. I am shocked by this new development! If only Marty Haske frequented this board as he did a couple months back on diamondtalk.com where he already addressed your verbal bashing of 8* and relentless pushing of the ACA brand. For a good read folks here you go:


http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35156&pagenumber=1

----------------


The main thing I learned about Marty Haske was that he is on the Eightstar payroll. Tough to throw your weight around when you're taking payola.


----------------


Since when is it ilegal or immoral to consult for a company. I resent the "payola" comment.
Who the hell do you think you are??

At least I tell the truth..

Marty Haske
 
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On 8/19/2003 3:49:55 AM Cut Nut wrote:


Quote Hand held imitations now being marketed are inconsistent and unprofessional by comparison. Stones viewed in them must be held in tweezers and appear different depending on the color of the tweezers.


As they all well know at Eightstar we displayed a very inexpensive fixed (but shirt pocket portable) light source at the Vegas fair. And really the color of the tweezers? You can do better folks, if you try harder.


Quote They lack the exactness of the SymmetriScope, only allow you to view one diamond at a time and cannot, therefore, be used effectively to compare one to another.


The portable light sources make this easy, and since this device is being marketed to the trade - it is really very easy for an experianced person to pick up and look at or show a consumer diamonds very quickly with the ideal-scope.


Would any Ideal-Scope owners like us to supply these fixed light sources? They are less than $20.


There are however lots of things I do agree with in the description in the previous post, and in a way it is rather complimentary that the good people at Eightstar Diamonds see fit to bless the ideal-scope with so much attention.


----------------

Don't worry Gary, you'll hype your "idealscope" enough yourself. Let's face it, Gary, while
your contrast enhancing "idealscope" is cute, it hardly qualifies as a consistent and accurate professional tool for judging the relative merits of two diamonds.

Secondly, as I understand it, the EightStar page for the SymmetriScope is for the trade only,
so I'm sure that any sales of your $20 toy to the public, won't interfere with SymmetriScope
sales to the trade.

Lastly, I think, sales of a toy to the public, which allows them (and promotes them) to think that they can accurately assess the cutting quality of a diamond on a repeatable basis, is a little disingenuous.

At least the hearts and arrows viewers out there are somewhat repeatable, but like your toy,
are not telling one the same thing as a SymmetriScope (or FireScope) does.

Since by your comments here, and all my hints to you in Vegas, you still haven't figured that one out yet, I guess I won't tell you, because you'd probably claim inventorship to that also.

Marty Haske
 
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On 8/19/2003 3:49:55 AM Cut Nut wrote:


Quote Improvements have been made to the SymmetriScope that have tailored it to the American jewelry market. It has a stronger light source, is easily portable, is made with metal instead of only plastic and will accommodate larger diamonds than the Firescope. It was the goal of von Sternberg to put this superior instrument into the jewelry industry before a mass-marketed cheap imitation began to appear that might make inferior diamonds look the same as superior ones the way hearts and arrows viewers do.

Assuming it is the same device that I have seen several times, it has a weaker light source and black side walls compared to the original Fire Scope. If the Ideal-Scope is a mass-marketed cheap imitation it certainly does not make inferior diamonds look the same as superior ones, and I sincerely hope that that is not your claim Richard?

Quote Hand held imitations now being marketed are inconsistent and unprofessional by comparison. Stones viewed in them must be held in tweezers and appear different depending on the color of the tweezers.

As they all well know at Eightstar we displayed a very inexpensive fixed (but shirt pocket portable) light source at the Vegas fair. And really the color of the tweezers? You can do better folks, if you try harder.

----------------

Well Gary, if the show fits ( "If the Ideal-Scope is a mass-marketed cheap imitation "), then I guess you have to wear it.. Notice that EightStar did NOT NAME the "idealscope".

Your toy DOES NOT show the same thing as a SymmetricScope (or FireScope), period, and as far as I can see, EightStar's comments regarding cheap, want to be, immitators, is right on point.

Also tweezers interfere with the passage of light, or don't you get it, and that's sort of independent of color, if you want to be picky about it, but there are black and silver and chrome and titanium tweezers, so they EightStar is correct.

Marty Haske
 
deleted
 
-----------
Let's face it, Gary, while your contrast
enhancing "idealscope" is cute, it hardly qualifies
as a consistent and accurate professional tool for
judging the relative merits of two diamonds.
-----------

Hey Marty! Nice to see you around. Seeing as how you're going to be putting together an SAS-2000 for me, the last thing in the world I want to do is rile you, but I have to disagree with this statement.

I use the IdealScope daily in grading diamonds, and find the inexpensive little thing to be consistent and accurate, with repeatable results. I probably know this better than most, because I recreate every diamond I'm analyzing with the DiamCalc program while viewing it under the IdealScope.

Time after time I get the two images to match nicely while inputting the numbers and comparing it with what I see under the IdealScope. I've found it to be an excellent tool in quickly assessing the symmetry, contrast, light leakage and light return performance of a diamond.

And it's available... Up to this point, there has been no other tool of it's sort on the market. I've wanted several times to purchase an EightStar firescope, but they were limiting it's distribution solely to EightStar dealers. Jonathan at GoodOldGold has a nice LightScope that he uses, but he doesn't market it at this time.

The IdealScope filled a handy niche within my arsenal of tools, and allowed me to demonstrate firsthand to clients the differences in light return performance between two stones. Invariably the IdealScope assisted them in picking out the better performer every time.

Along those same lines, it's the only tool out on the market which assists the layperson in eliminating poor performers in their diamond shopping quests. Up to this time they've had to rely on jeweler's assessments and diamond grading reports which don't tell the whole picture. Now, they can make some sort of educated opinion on the light return performance of stones they're examining, without having to spend $1200.

Marty, I'll be picking up the beer tab as well as the SAS tab while you're down here in Sarasota.
 
Quote from 8Flash - Wow, Gary Holloway once again flaming the EightStar company and all it represents. I am shocked by this new development! If only Marty Haske frequented this board as he did a couple months back on diamondtalk.com where he already addressed your verbal bashing of 8* and relentless pushing of the ACA brand.


Gee 8 Flash, what did I say that was a flame?

I rather thought I was the one with singed hair, since the 8* promo seemed to be fairly and squarely aimed at me?

Obviously Marty (who is employed by 8*) did not write the copy however because he would not have made those rather elementary mistakes. We may not always agree on every little point, but we are never that far away, and Marty reports the facts as he sees them. (Marty I wrote that before you responded)

If I flamed rather than reported could you please quote the offending comment?

And since you mention the ACA, which I doubt that I have been relentlessly pushing, it would seem that the image of the 8* on the top left of the Symmetriscope page is not so perfect?



Rich I too have been banned from DiamondTalk but Leonid explained that if you clear your cookies then you can visit and read only. Not that there is that much happening there these days. And thanks for the assessment.



Marty if you would like to be polite and constructive and point out area's where you believe there are deficiencies in the ideal-Scope I would be happy to listen, as I have to Sergey and Yuri who have helped me understand one area concerning human perception of color / intensity / saturation. However your comments so far have not swayed me, nor have you impressed me with your understanding of the instrument and its basic principles, let alone the advantage of portability.



There are many points I made in the 2nd post - you have only 1/2 heartedly addressed a few. I take it therefore that you agree with much of what I have said?I could again ask you again about the problems your clients instrument suffers as a result of the perspex tray, but you probably would not answer it, just as you have avoided doing so in the past. You may have noticed that I did not resort to criticizing the Firescope (which is now called the Symmetriscope - but why the name change?).
 
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On 8/20/2003 1:18:42 PM LawGem wrote:



Everyone has to make a living. Don't forget that Garry is trying to sell Idealscopes himself and has published some promotional articles to that effect in a couple of journals.

I don't know Marty and have never had any contact with him, but I do know him to be a serious scientist. Lots of scientists accept funding from businesses that have a vested interest in the outcome of their research. There are ways of insulating their work and the fact of such funding doesn't automatically disqualify their opinions.
----------------


Very true. And certainly the "payola" comment could be seen as harsh.

The thing I find interesting is that Marty did not come clean about his relationship with EightStar. Garry brought it to light. One can't help wonder why Marty left it out. In fact, I don't believe Marty ever cleared the air as to the nature of his employ with EightStar (though I have not carefully re-read that thread).

All the pros greatly respect Marty's integrity, but maybe he forgot that his reputation did not precede him for the rest of us schleps.
 
Richard,

How true all your comments were! I tell you, I have used the Idealscope to look at (I kid you not) at least 50 stones since I got it in December. I have become the favorite (aunt, friend, acquaintance...) of many I know, since I love to help them shop for their diamonds. Couldn't have done it without the IS, cause every vendor tells you the same thing - this is a very good stone, ideal-cut, blah, blah, blah. My eyes were able to verify what the IS showed, so to me, it is a priceless tool, and not $1200!

To Marty, many of us don't know who you are, so don't take such offense at a poster's comments. My first impression of your post was, how unprofessional, take a Valium or two.
 
A $20.00 Toy??? I think not

We have found the Ideal-Scope to be by far the most practical professional tool for bulk sorting while buying at the cutting factories. The Ideal Scope allows our buyer to quickly work through large parcels eliminating the poor cuts. We can then spend quality time on the smaller selection.

Wayne
Melbourne Diamond Exchange Ltd
 
First let me say that I respect the valuable contribution that Marty makes to our little community of internet diamond geeks.

I think that his argument on this subject is a little skewed. It seems to me that if an instrument is not expensive he classifies it as a “toy” and since it is a “toy” and does not do everything that the expensive instrument does it should be dismissed as not a serious and valuable instrument.

If I were a serious buyer of diamonds, which I am not, and if I wanted to buy diamonds that only had limited light leakage, which I would, and if I had only limited time to go through many diamonds, which most buyers do, I would want an inexpensive, easily portable instrument, like the Idealscope, that I could use rapidly and accurately to narrow down my choices of diamonds so I could spend more time with the ones I have not culled out.

He is backing an instrument that is married to a diamond that is cut exclusively for that instrument and none other. It is also an instrument that is available only to the people that deal with that product.

Since most of the vendors here on the internet are not selling the diamond married to the instrument, they are unable to use the instrument. And since the Idealscope is available and affordable and gives us the information we want to know, namely, shows us how much light leakage is present in a particular diamond, our instrument of choice is the Idealscope.
 
Thanks Caratgirl, Rich, Wayne and Bob for your support.

Sorry I have not been able to post.

Firstly let me say I had no idea the link someone sent me was not public - but should it matter?

Why ever would you write things on a website that you would not be prepared to air publicly?

A normal way to keep things private is to use password protection.

Finally let me just say again, the ideal-scope definitely gives a more accurate display of leakage than the FireScope or the new distorted version that I have seen with black walls.

Marty would you please explain why the walls were made black and the light dimmed?
 
8* must have enjoyed the publicity because they have not changed the address or made it password protected.
 
Someone said that, in the day when only the wealthiest owned diamonds, they trusted their jewelers to guide their purchases. Living in the Washington D.C. area, there are a million jewelers and it isn't like me to "trust" someone when their referrals are ususally from people who know as little as I do. I find it very helpful to have websites like this one, where knowledgeable people enjoy highly technical banter among themselves and are willing to educate us novices as much as we are willing or able to be educated.
I read about 8* diamonds, heard bits and pieces on different threads, but honestly the biggest problem I have with them is that I can't find out about pricing without contacting one of their dealers. To me this says hard sell. I'm not interested. They may be terrific, worth every dime, but the site seems hyped and evasive - reminds me of the branding of Tiffany or Cartier which may well be justified, but is unquestionably too rich for my blood.
Pricescope reaches me, educates me. It may have it's opinions that to some sound like biases, but they are open about hearing the other person.
The Idealscope gave me a simple tool that reinforces a judgement or helps me to form one. It's everyman's tool - simple to use, portable, affordable. Is my choice of stone the same that someone with years of experience or more sophisticated tools might make? Probably not. But instead of the snobby "you can't possibly understand" attitude that seems to exude from the likes of 8* and hard sell jewelers in general, I prefer the respect I feel here at pricescope.
I know I made a better choice than I could have without you all, and you can never discount the value of sharing knowledge and a common interest, not to mention the support and compassion found here.
I appreciate Gary (and Leonid, and Rhino and Richard and . . . .) because he is a diamond geek, not a diamond snob. He's my kind of people. Thanks for being here, and thanks for the Ideal scope.
 
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