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60/60 rounds

Christina...

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,028
Okay, so I've been reading through some old threads about 60/60 rounds and decided to look around at some online vendors to try to locate one that performed well....I'm not having alot of luck. But I'd really like to see one. From all that I've read, it seems that some people really prefer this cut over Tolks, and I'd like to see for myself why. I haven't had the time yet to go to any of my local jewelers to see if they have any to show me and I'm sure that is where this is going to lead me, but I'm hoping that maybe someone here can show me a good one, and maybe give me their opinion as to why someone may prefer this cut over say....an AGS0. Thanks in advance!
 

Christina...

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,028
Ok so stay with me, I have a feeling that I'm going to frustrate you all with some of my ignorance, but I truly am interested. I guess I thought that AGS required a smaller table to meet there ideal standard, I'll go back and review the criteria.(not because I think your incorrect but for my own knowledge ;)) )

There was some debate about the light performance of these 60/60. Mostly I've read that they don't seem to have a nice combination of fire and brilliance, and most of them being more brilliant than firey. I haven't put any of your examples into the HCA to see how they come back yet, but I'm excited to see.

I'm not sure why I think that they need to be treated differently than modern RB but it's stuck in my head that way for some reason.... :oops:



ETA wow 1.7 for the GOG and 1.4 for the JA. so I guess these guys definitely shouldn't be overlooked when shopping!
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Apr 3, 2004
Messages
32,407
RD where are you?.. :bigsmile:
 

Christina...

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,028
Dancing Fire|1310008562|2963395 said:
RD where are you?.. :bigsmile:

:roll: Such a clown! :lol:
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,128
Christina...|1310004250|2963309 said:
Ok so stay with me, I have a feeling that I'm going to frustrate you all with some of my ignorance, but I truly am interested. I guess I thought that AGS required a smaller table to meet there ideal standard, I'll go back and review the criteria.(not because I think your incorrect but for my own knowledge ;)) )
AGS proportions charts http://agslab.com/trade_research_and_development_proportion_based_cut_grade.php

There was some debate about the light performance of these 60/60. Mostly I've read that they don't seem to have a nice combination of fire and brilliance, and most of them being more brilliant than firey. I haven't put any of your examples into the HCA to see how they come back yet, but I'm excited to see.

I'm not sure why I think that they need to be treated differently than modern RB but it's stuck in my head that way for some reason....
I think it's a bit funny that 60/60s have their own terminology on here - "60/60", as if they're a whole different can of fish entirely, when princesses - 2, 3, 4 chevron - all princesses! ::)

In any case - depends what you mean by "normal" I suppose - what point you're using to compare more vs less brilliant/fiery. Compared to a stone w/ 53/34/41/75 you can expect a well-cut 60/60 w/ 60/33/41/80+ to show less coloured light output in most lighting environments, but whether or not you consider one a "nicer" balance than the other is entirely up to your personal preferences!

I imagine these lil' guys would be phenomenally different IRL despite the 60% table
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-IF-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1383241.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS1-Premium-Cut-Round-Diamond-1371775.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/G-VVS2-Premium-Cut-Round-Diamond-1323627.asp
 

Christina...

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,028
Thanks for the links Yssie, I thought that I might tackle it before bed, *yawn* but it looks like it will have to wait for tomorrow! It's exactly what I wanted to see though and I'm looking forward to putting a bunch through the HCA and seeing how the different proportions affect the outcome.

Off hand do you know of a PSer with a stone of similiar proportions?
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,747
Hi Christina,
RockDiamond will be here real soon i am sure and he can tell you what he see's.

I think what you might like is a less cluttered diamond with slightly reduced contrast.
You can get that with a larger table.
But also with longer lower girdle facets.
And also with a little painting on a slighly deeper stone (but with a shallow stone it increases the darkness).

You probably should compare some of the longer lower girdle facet stones too.
There is a little about that here:
http://www.ideal-scope.com/3.manuf_fine_tuning.asp
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,128
Garry H (Cut Nut)|1310013622|2963469 said:
Hi Christina,
RockDiamond will be here real soon i am sure and he can tell you what he see's.

I think what you might like is a less cluttered diamond with slightly reduced contrast.
You can get that with a larger table.
But also with longer lower girdle facets.
And also with a little painting on a slighly deeper stone (but with a shallow stone it increases the darkness).

You probably should compare some of the longer lower girdle facet stones too.
There is a little about that here:
http://www.ideal-scope.com/3.manuf_fine_tuning.asp
An unusually loquacious post :devil:

Huh. I think longer lgf = more cluttered - all splinter and spark and no actual staid and steady flash. Unless we're talking 3ct honkers.
Yes, I've owned (still own in fact) nice specimens of both of similar size, I am not squawking. Though they are far from 3cts, sadly.

Can I ask if there is a productive time and place for digging?
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,747
Yssie|1310014287|2963472 said:
Garry H (Cut Nut)|1310013622|2963469 said:
Hi Christina,
RockDiamond will be here real soon i am sure and he can tell you what he see's.

I think what you might like is a less cluttered diamond with slightly reduced contrast.
You can get that with a larger table.
But also with longer lower girdle facets.
And also with a little painting on a slighly deeper stone (but with a shallow stone it increases the darkness).

You probably should compare some of the longer lower girdle facet stones too.
There is a little about that here:
http://www.ideal-scope.com/3.manuf_fine_tuning.asp
An unusually loquacious post :devil:

Huh. I think longer lgf = more cluttered - all splinter and spark and no actual staid and steady flash. Unless we're talking 3ct honkers.
Yes, I've owned (still own in fact) nice specimens of both of similar size, I am not squawking. Though they are far from 3cts, sadly.

Can I ask if there is a productive time and place for digging?
Yssie in my opinion the lowering of the upper girdle facets can offset the leakage near the girdle in slightly steep deep stones. It makes such stones appear larger (well, as large maybe as a say tolkowsky prop stone of the same diameter) beacuse it improves their outer edge light return.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,411
Wow, it feels nice to be wanted:)

Christina, I think there's been a lot of great explanations so far.

Garry mentioned "less contrast"- which can also be seen by some observers as brighter overall.
This can also increase the perceived size so that when comparing a Tolk style to a 60/60 of the same diameter the 60/60 can actually look larger

I also love the longer LGF's which work in conjunction with the larger table, and less apparent contrast to eliminate patterning like H&A- which some observers don't like ( while others strive for it)

Lastly- Garry himself has admitted that HCA bashes some 60/60 stones undeservedly.
My wife wears a gorgeous ( IMO) 60/60 that scored over 5 on HCA.
If you're looking at stones in person,and can then correlate HCA scores you might also love stones that score high numbers ( low marks) on HCA
 

Christina...

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,028
Rockdiamond|1310048596|2963722 said:
I also love the longer LGF's which work in conjunction with the larger table, and less apparent contrast to eliminate patterning like H&A- which some observers don't like ( while others strive for it)

Lastly- Garry himself has admitted that HCA bashes some 60/60 stones undeservedly.
My wife wears a gorgeous ( IMO) 60/60 that scored over 5 on HCA.
If you're looking at stones in person,and can then correlate HCA scores you might also love stones that score high numbers ( low marks) on HCA

Thanks RD! This is exactly my experience and why I had asked for some nice examples! Most of the 60/60's that I was entering into the HCA were falling over the 2 cut off, so I wasn't sure if they were stones with poor performance or if it was simply the difference in cut. I was also under the impression that these stones would be more brilliant, as I prefer fire.

Forgive me if I sound really green, I've just become interested after reading through some threads as to what the difference is between this cut and a Tolk. I'm wondering though, you mentioned that these stones appear brighter because of the larger table, but would there be more obstruction because of the larger table? or more glare? either? neither? :???:

Thanks for your patience everyone! :wavey:
 

Christina...

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,028
Garry H (Cut Nut)|1310013622|2963469 said:
Hi Christina,
RockDiamond will be here real soon i am sure and he can tell you what he see's.

I think what you might like is a less cluttered diamond with slightly reduced contrast.
You can get that with a larger table.
But also with longer lower girdle facets.
And also with a little painting on a slighly deeper stone (but with a shallow stone it increases the darkness).

You probably should compare some of the longer lower girdle facet stones too.
There is a little about that here:
http://www.ideal-scope.com/3.manuf_fine_tuning.asp

Thanks Gary, I've heard painting mentioned before, but I haven't yet asked what exactly that is.....

Also, I believe that you are right about prefering a less cluttered diamond. I wasn't sure how to phrase it, but that seems right, I've always been more drawn to the step cuts and love AVC's OEC, OMC's and less drawn to the H&A of the modern RB.

ETA If the pav is over a 41.2, I would begin to see leakage through the table is that correct?
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,128
Garry H (Cut Nut)|1310040834|2963638 said:
Yssie|1310014287|2963472 said:
Can I ask if there is a productive time and place for digging?
Yssie in my opinion the lowering of the upper girdle facets can offset the leakage near the girdle in slightly steep deep stones. It makes such stones appear larger (well, as large maybe as a say tolkowsky prop stone of the same diameter) beacuse it improves their outer edge light return.

Garry - I'm not following - painting allows a shallower upper girdle facet angle, which can compensate for a steeper lower girdle angle. Why wouldn't lowering the UGF and increasing that angle have the opposite effect - making the UGF/LGF combo even steeper/deep more leaky at the girdle? I could see it being a boon to a shallow combination - don't think I've ever seen it IRL though, must be an interesting look - reducing the angle between adjacent UGFs so they look and act like one facet..

Edit - hope you don't mind the minithreadjack Christina!
 

Christina...

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
5,028
Yssie|1310078247|2964179 said:
Garry H (Cut Nut)|1310040834|2963638 said:
Yssie|1310014287|2963472 said:
Can I ask if there is a productive time and place for digging?
Yssie in my opinion the lowering of the upper girdle facets can offset the leakage near the girdle in slightly steep deep stones. It makes such stones appear larger (well, as large maybe as a say tolkowsky prop stone of the same diameter) beacuse it improves their outer edge light return.

Garry - I'm not following - painting allows a shallower upper girdle facet angle, which can compensate for a steeper lower girdle angle. Why wouldn't lowering the UGF and increasing that angle have the opposite effect - making the UGF/LGF combo even steeper/deep more leaky at the girdle? I could see it being a boon to a shallow combination - don't think I've ever seen it IRL though, must be an interesting look - reducing the angle between adjacent UGFs so they look and act like one facet..

Edit - hope you don't mind the minithreadjack Christina!

Not at all! ;)) I want to be as informed as all of you, so I enjoy following the discussion! I understand that lowering the UGF can offset girdle leakage but will it increase leakage say under or around the table? And when you are talking about lowering the angle, by how much?
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,128
Christina...|1310086141|2964278 said:
Yssie|1310078247|2964179 said:
Garry H (Cut Nut)|1310040834|2963638 said:
Yssie|1310014287|2963472 said:
Can I ask if there is a productive time and place for digging?
Yssie in my opinion the lowering of the upper girdle facets can offset the leakage near the girdle in slightly steep deep stones. It makes such stones appear larger (well, as large maybe as a say tolkowsky prop stone of the same diameter) beacuse it improves their outer edge light return.

Garry - I'm not following - painting allows a shallower upper girdle facet angle, which can compensate for a steeper lower girdle angle. Why wouldn't lowering the UGF and increasing that angle have the opposite effect - making the UGF/LGF combo even steeper/deep more leaky at the girdle? I could see it being a boon to a shallow combination - don't think I've ever seen it IRL though, must be an interesting look - reducing the angle between adjacent UGFs so they look and act like one facet..

Edit - hope you don't mind the minithreadjack Christina!

Not at all! ;)) I want to be as informed as all of you, so I enjoy following the discussion! I understand that lowering the UGF can offset girdle leakage but will it increase leakage say under or around the table? And when you are talking about lowering the angle, by how much?
in a steep combo - I don't understand - well, obviously I guess, hence the above :cheeky: but no, brillianteering of the crown is strictly a girdle treatment - no effect on table or pavilion facets, just the crown facets. Manipulating the girdle on the pavilion side necessarily affects what's happening under the table - changing the angle of the pavilion facets

Good Old Gold has an intro tutorial, Brian Gavin's article in the PS wiki
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/visible_effects_painting_digging_superideal_diamonds + the GIA paper linked at the beginning
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/NewCutGrading/PaintingandDigging/
thread [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/girdle-treatments-cheated-girdles-tweaked-girdles-digging-painting.36102/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/girdle-treatments-cheated-girdles-tweaked-girdles-digging-painting.36102/[/URL]
 

skphotoimages

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Messages
188
I have a 60/60 cut and have always prefered it to "ideal" diamonds. I think it is because it is a brighter stone (LOTS od flashes of white light always blinding me). Lots of brilliance. I'm a photographer and I like my light ;-) . It does have fire, but not like a AGS000. I have an ideal diamond in a pendant, and even bezel set it has lots of fire. I've learned with my 60/60 diamond that when it used to be buried in it's previous setting it had no fire at all. Now that it is properly set and in a split four prong, it has lots of fire. Still not as much as the ideal though.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
I suspect that to the vast majority of consumers, the only visible difference between a tolk style and 60/60 ideally proportioned stone is the facet patterning, and even that is likely only visible in larger ct. weight. In diamonds under 1ct, I bet in day to day wear most people would not see much difference. Maybe in a side-by-sdie taste test, but the nuances we talk about here on PS are, I suspect, largely lost on most people in daily wear.
 
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