40.4 Pavilion Angle - Deal Breaker or not always?

[Bea Williams]

I’m learning so much, thanks to this forum. But I’m new to this and didn’t know about the suggested cutoff of 40.5 or above for the Pavilion Angle. I had already ordered a stone with a 40.4 pavilion angle (36 crown angle). I love the look of the stone on the video, and most of the measurements seem great, though I’m learning how much each one matters in combination. IGI says Ideal, retailer says super ideal (of course) and it also scores well on the HCA at just under 1. I know you can’t tell me too much without a lot of data and images, so I guess I’m just wondering how big of a deal a PA below 40.5 really is for most of us in daily life. Any examples of stones with a PA below 40.5 that are still amazing? How can I examine the stone myself, when I get it, to check for leakage; what exactly am I looking for? What would obstruction look like to me - a nailhead effect and darkness in the center, from certain lengths? I also plan to take it to my local jeweler for his opinion, and I can always return it. Thanks in advance for any tips and insight. This is an upgrade for my ring for a special anniversary, and I want it to be a good sparkler!

 

[0515vision]

Hi @Bea Williams! I’m not an expert, and they will def chime in later. But if you know that ppl tend to like PA 40.6-40.9, then you’ll by now also know that they recommend CA 34-35. Yours is high at 36.

Can you post the link to a high magnification video of your stone? Or even the certificate? We’re all here to help you feel ease and joy whenever you look at your stone!

 

[0-0-0]

I don’t think it’s a dealbreaker if you know what you like and are looking for. But the key is to have a known good performer to compare with side by side. Shallower rounds typically show darker arrows faster up close and the arrows stay darker longer at farther distances and tilt.

I have a round modified brilliant with a shallower pavilion that performs well even next to an AGS0 H&A, but a typical round brilliant with a similarly shallow pavilion would look much darker in comparison.

Loupe360

loupe360.com

https://imgur.com/a/fhmDGRf

 

[Bea Williams]

Thanks, yes, I'm learning 36 degrees is high for a CA. I was using (maybe incorrectly) this information below and hoping a 36 angle crown would work with the lower PA.

https://www.doamore.com/3-big-mistakes-to-avoid-in-a-round-engagement-ring/: "Tolkowsky ideal round diamond proportions reflect a 34.5 degree crown and a 40.8 degree pavilion result in the most sparkle. However, you don’t need these exact angles to max your sparkle – you just need his math. A good rule of thumb is for every 1.0 degrees steeper your crown, subtract 0.2 degrees from your pavilion (for example: 35.5 crown, 40.6 pavilion). Likewise, for every 1.0 degrees shallower your crown is, add 0.2 degrees to your pavilion (for example: 33.5 crown, 41.0 pavilion)."

The video that was online has been pulled since I purchased the stone.

 

[0515vision]

Sometimes if you post the certificate, the sleuths here can drum up the video. For my stone, I discovered that by plugging in the certificate number at the end of this link, I found my video.

https://loupe360.com/diamond/LG___(put your IGI # here without spaces)______

Example: https://loupe360.com/diamond/LG123456789

Fingers crossed for you!

 

[Kim N]

Sometimes if you post the certificate, the sleuths here can drum up the video. For my stone, I discovered that by plugging in the certificate number at the end of this link, I found my video.

https://loupe360.com/diamond/LG___(put your IGI # here without spaces)______

Example: https://loupe360.com/diamond/LG123456789

Fingers crossed for you!

Yes, please post the report number, and we'll look for a magnified video.

For me personally and especially for a ring, I would stick with 40.6-40.9 and 34-35. Unless you have a specific reason for seeking out the 36/40.4 combo, there are hundreds of stones out there that have safer proportions with more reliable performance.

 

[Bea Williams]

Sometimes if you post the certificate, the sleuths here can drum up the video. For my stone, I discovered that by plugging in the certificate number at the end of this link, I found my video.

https://loupe360.com/diamond/LG___(put your IGI # here without spaces)______

Example: https://loupe360.com/diamond/LG123456789

Fingers crossed for you!

Thanks, found it!

Loupe360

loupe360.com

 

[tyty333]

I think the stone looks pretty good. I tend to like higher crowns (usually around 35.5 degrees). This stone will probably be a
FIC stone and should show a lot of fire at the cost of brightness. Did it come up as a FIC or TIC stone on the HCA?

Lets see if we can get @Karl_K to comment on the numbers.

 

[Bea Williams]

I think the stone looks pretty good. I tend to like higher crowns (usually around 35.5 degrees). This stone will probably be a
FIC stone and should show a lot of fire at the cost of brightness. Did it come up as a FIC or TIC stone on the HCA?

Lets see if we can get @Karl_K to comment on the numbers.

Thank you for that question. I hadn't noticed that part of the HCA before and had to go look at my picture of the HCA report.

It scored as a 0.9, within FIC range. All Ex except Very Good for Spread.

Maybe I'll really like the fire because I also like the way Moissanite sparkles (not sure that's best to say in a diamond forum though, ha).

 

[Karl_K]

Marginally a little darker up close and arrows stay dark at a greater distance.
Marginal and personal preference in a ring.
Great combo for pendants and earrings.

 

[Bea Williams]

Marginally a little darker up close and arrows stay dark at a greater distance.
Marginal and personal preference in a ring.
Great combo for pendants and earrings.

Thank you! Is it because rings have the tables horizonal and pendants/earrings' tables are vertical?

This will definitely be for a ring; I guess as long as I like the look of it, I'll be set.

 

[Karl_K]

Thank you! Is it because rings have the tables horizonal and pendants/earrings' tables are vertical?

This will definitely be for a ring; I guess as long as I like the look of it, I'll be set.

viewing distance is much greater for a pendant and earrings.
Rings are viewed up close often but someone that close to an earring being worn is either going to get punched or has other things in mind.

 

[Bea Williams]

lol, ok, thank you!

 

[0515vision]

I'm a newbie who has been following the 34-35 party line, but this stone looks so good to me! Clearly, I still have much to learn

Please post photos once you get it in hand. And moissy has its own beauty, too! Lots of moissy fans here on PS!

 

[Bea Williams]

Same here! I'm a newbie, and I think it's gorgeous on the video. I'm trying to figure out if I'm not understanding something or just not very experienced yet in how these videos translate to what stones look like in daily wear and different lighting conditions. I will definitely share once I have it!

 

[Bea Williams]

I don’t think it’s a dealbreaker if you know what you like and are looking for. But the key is to have a known good performer to compare with side by side. Shallower rounds typically show darker arrows faster up close and the arrows stay darker longer at farther distances and tilt.

I have a round modified brilliant with a shallower pavilion that performs well even next to an AGS0 H&A, but a typical round brilliant with a similarly shallow pavilion would look much darker in comparison.

Loupe360

loupe360.com

https://imgur.com/a/fhmDGRf

What a beautiful stone!!

 

[Bea Williams]

Yes, please post the report number, and we'll look for a magnified video.

For me personally and especially for a ring, I would stick with 40.6-40.9 and 34-35. Unless you have a specific reason for seeking out the 36/40.4 combo, there are hundreds of stones out there that have safer proportions with more reliable performance.

Thank you, it's really just about size, budget, and timing for the anniversary. Is there any site that lets you search by CA and PA?

 

[Karl_K]

It is expected that many issues will not show up in vendor video.
They are designed to make diamonds look good, not show potential issues.

 

[Kim N]

Thank you, it's really just about size, budget, and timing for the anniversary. Is there any site that lets you search by CA and PA?

No, unfortunately you have to look at CA and PA manually.

 

[0-0-0]

If you search by H&A or the top cut grade on most sites it’ll narrow down the range of CA and PA significantly.

 

[Kim N]

When will the diamond arrive? I'm so curious how it looks in person.

 

[Bea Williams]

I think within the next week! I'm anxiously awaiting too! In the meantime, I've been geeking out on this website and have now ordered an Ideal Scope and comparison CZs to view. I've always loved jewelry, and it's so fun to learn!

Also, I found this stone with better CA/PA, but I'm not sure it will be all that much better in person:

Loupe360

loupe360.com

I keep seeing everyone say to look at a lot of loose stones, and in various lighting. But how should I do that? I only know to go inside a jewelry store, and they all have those same lights... It's very rare for me to be able to order 2 stones to see, and I'll only be able to keep one.

 

[Kim N]

I think within the next week! I'm anxiously awaiting too! In the meantime, I've been geeking out on this website and have now ordered an Ideal Scope and comparison CZs to view. I've always loved jewelry, and it's so fun to learn!

Also, I found this stone with better CA/PA, but I'm not sure it will be all that much better in person:

Loupe360

loupe360.com

I keep seeing everyone say to look at a lot of loose stones, and in various lighting. But how should I do that? I only know to go inside a jewelry store, and they all have those same lights... It's very rare for me to be able to order 2 stones to see, and I'll only be able to keep one.

The second one you found has potential, but there are likely better out there.

I'm referring to your usual lighting environments. You want a diamond that will wow you where you usually spend your time. Definitely not a jewelry store unless your house or workplace is full of jewelry store spotlights. My favorite place to view a diamond is under a broad leafy tree on a sunny day.

 

[Bea Williams]

The second one you found has potential, but there are likely better out there.

I'm referring to your usual lighting environments. You want a diamond that will wow you where you usually spend your time. Definitely not a jewelry store unless your house or workplace is full of jewelry store spotlights. My favorite place to view a diamond is under a broad leafy tree on a sunny day.

 

[Bea Williams]

Please excuse my first attempts at photographing a loose stone.

Received the diamond yesterday and the ideal scope today. I’m trying to view with a white screen on my iPhone below the tray; photographing with another phone.

Seems to my untrained eyes to be showing a disappointing amount of light leakage in the center.

 

[Kim N]

Please excuse my first attempts at photographing a loose stone.

Received the diamond yesterday and the ideal scope today. I’m trying to view with a white screen on my iPhone below the tray; photographing with another phone.

Seems to my untrained eyes to be showing a disappointing amount of light leakage in the center.

Actually, I don't think there's any leakage. The backlight is a bit too strong. It looks very well cut, but how does it perform to your eyes?

 

[Bea Williams]

Actually, I don't think there's any leakage. The backlight is a bit too strong. It looks very well cut, but how does it perform to your eyes?

Oh, really? That was be awesome if all I’m seeing is user error!

To my eyes, at home, it’s gorgeous, but I was afraid I was ill informed!

 

[Kim N]

I mean, to my eyes, it’s gorgeous, but I was afraid I was ill informed!

Trust your eyes! If you love it, that says it all. Just make sure to view in many different lighting environments so you're fully informed on how it performs.

 

[Karl_K]

That's perfectly normal, just a strong backlight.
CG perfect cut stone back lighting only.
The pattern varies by configuration, its 3-5% leakage which is consider nominal.

 

[Bea Williams]

Awesome! I’m so excited!! Thank you! Y’all are the best.