4 CARAT OFFER - SHOULD I GO FOR IT???

[diamondsareagirlsbestfriend]

All right, this is what I have found to be the best deal - but I''m wondering if everyone else thinks this is a "great", "good", "fair" or "run for your life" deal based on the industry....

EGL cert.
4.02
E color
SI2
depth 62% 57% table crown 14.8% Pavilion 43.5% girle thin to thick faceted
polish and symmetry good fluorescence: faint

This eye is VERY VERY eye clean. The feather and crystal are very dispersed, so even under a scope it looks better than anything I''ve seen yet.

My only concern is that is seems "dark" - it doesn''t seem as bright as my 1.41, even though the color on that is a G/H, and the cut is very similiar.

Price? 29,000.

Any help is greatly appreciated, since I have learned so much from this board but still feel so ignorant...

 

[strmrdr]

Do you want a diamond or a lifeless chunck of charcoal?
If your budget is 29k drop down in size and get something to be proud of or if you want a 4ct diamond look to spend up to another $6000-$10000++
over that one.

 

[Caratz]

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On 12/2/2003 5:06:44 PM diamondsareagirlsbestfriend wrote:

All right, this is what I have found to be the best deal - but I'm wondering if everyone else thinks this is a 'great', 'good', 'fair' or 'run for your life' deal based on the industry....

EGL cert.
4.02
E color
SI2
depth 62% 57% table crown 14.8% Pavilion 43.5% girle thin to thick faceted
polish and symmetry good fluorescence: faint

This eye is VERY VERY eye clean. The feather and crystal are very dispersed, so even under a scope it looks better than anything I've seen yet.

My only concern is that is seems 'dark' - it doesn't seem as bright as my 1.41, even though the color on that is a G/H, and the cut is very similiar.

Price? 29,000.

Any help is greatly appreciated, since I have learned so much from this board but still feel so ignorant...----------------

With an HCA score of 2.2, this stone should not appear dark, and should not resemble a chunk of charcoal. Looks like a good price if it is in fact E and an an eye clean SI2.

 

[strmrdr]

Here is an example of the specs and price on a very very good 4ct diamond.
click here

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 12/2/2003 5:06:44 PM diamondsareagirlsbestfriend wrote:

My only concern is that is seems 'dark' - it doesn't seem as bright as my 1.41, even though the color on that is a G/H, and the cut is very similiar.

Price? 29,000.

Any help is greatly appreciated, since I have learned so much from this board but still feel so ignorant...----------------

This stone has quite a bit of bang for the buck. I'm confused as to why you call it dark. Can you elaborate? Have you viewed the stone in several differnent lights? What is your primary goal & budget?

My EGL stone was graded soft on clarity. You say this is an SI2. It's possible the stone has transparacy issues which might account for the darkness.

Good luck. Are you tied to the place where you bought the 1.41 stone for the trade up?

As I have counciled anyone buying a large stone, go slow! This may be the stone of your dreams but, be sure. It's not unusual for it to take several months to find "the one". Do not settle. And, make sure you get an independent appraisal.

 

[Mara]

Welllll the HCA gave it a 2.2 which is not bad but that is just using the %'s which are not accurate. In reality, with accurate angles, could be more like 2.5 or 3.




Interesting that you feel that this stone looks not as good as the one you own now. Something really important to note is that a HUGE part of a stone's beauty comes from the CUT. If the stone is a D IF and has a crappy cut, you can put it next to something like a G VS with an excellent cut and have the G VS outperform the D IF on all levels. It's all about the cut. Color only makes the stone look colorful, nothing about darkness or lightness, that's all the cut. Clarity only means inclusions in the stone, nothing about how it disperses light or affects light return (unless a stone is so heavily included (e.g. I2) that it ends up affecting the stone because of the inclusions.




I would go with your gut and I would pass on this stone. If you don't think it looks better, there's probably a reason.




Also the price is VERY LOW for a 4c E SI2. The color itself commands a premium, as does the carat size. For a well cut 4c say...G VS (I would not go under VS2 in a 4c stone...though some may suggest SI1 but it will be harder to find an eye clean SI1 in this carat range). I would expect to pay more like $40k for this type of stone. Not $29k.




Not that you need to get a super-duper ideal stone to have a beauty...and stones are harder to come by in the larger sizes, but if you feel this stone looks DARK....there may be a reason. Those EGL %'s are not accurate ...it's even really hard to say what sort of cut this stone would be without more accurate data.




Lots of information to process....but I would not jump the gun and just get something right away. Continue to do the research and in the end you will be so much more thankful that you really did your homework.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 12/2/2003 5:45:38 PM strmrdr wrote:

Here is an example of the specs and price on a very very good 4ct diamond.
click here----------------

Quite frankly, that stone is overkill. It may not be what she is looking for. As someone who was given 50k to buy a big rock, it was certainly not my intention to spend it. Also, I found that the prices were all over the board & in some instances did not reflect the overall beauty of the final product.

Edited to add that: buying a large stone is a different animal all together. Several other issues come into play.

Also, in a stone that size, I would seriously consider med/strong blue in a stone.

 

[strmrdr]

----------------
On 12/2/2003 5:45:01 PM Caratz wrote:

-



With an HCA score of 2.2, this stone should not appear dark, and should not resemble a chunk of charcoal. Looks like a good price if it is in fact E and an an eye clean SI2.----------------

Without the cutlet size you cant get an accurate hca from percentages and egl as I understand it rounds the numbers off anyway.
The price is 6k-10k+++ under pricescope price for reasonable cut diamonds 4ct range.

 

[Mara]

Actually IMO Storm offered an excellent comparison stone. Yes it's a super-duper ideal which she may not be interested in, but it's good to compare all levels of what is out there in order to know all the scenarios.

 

[diamondsareagirlsbestfriend]

When comparing the two (in bright light, shaded light and natural light) my 1.41 g/h seems "whiter" - when I say "dark", meaning not as white in color.

I told them the first thing I will do is take it to an independent appraiser, and asked what they would do IF it came back other than an "E" color, and their response:

1. either compensate the difference if i wanted to keep the stone

OR

2. Replace the stone with a GIA certified stone that matched their EGL specs on this diamond.

When I mentioned to the owner that the stone had more "darker" hues to it, commented something to the effect of it was a larger stone with a deeper cut, reflecting differently than my other diamond, or something to this effect.

 

[Mara]

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On 12/2/2003 5:54:27 PM diamondsareagirlsbestfriend wrote:





When I mentioned to the owner that the stone had more 'darker' hues to it, commented something to the effect of it was a larger stone with a deeper cut, reflecting differently than my other diamond, or something to this effect.
----------------

Interesting...so this stone may be carrying more weight in the pavilion where you can't see it....the depth is somewhat right on the cusp at 62%....I would definitely get this stone independently appraised by someone with a Sarin in order to learn the specifics.

One important question--did you like the stone? You noted it looked dark, did this bother you? Eyeballs can sometimes be the best judge. Regardless of what it says on PAPER (e.g E SI) ...what do you feel....would you be happy wearing it?

 

[fire&ice]

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On 12/2/2003 5:53:14 PM Mara wrote:


she may not be interested in, but it's good to compare all levels of what is out there in order to know all the scenarios.
----------------

For that reason alone. Also, one can't really judge the price of 29K as not realistic. I was offered a +/- 3.4c stone - very white - no junky inclusions on the secondary market as a flip for 8.5K. It was quite a bit of bang for the buck. On the hand, it was impressive; but, the cut was not to my liking. I was also offered a G/Vs stone 4c+ for 40K. Come to think about it, it may still be for sale. It was *way* too big for me.

 

[Mara]

I tend to think that $29k for a stone of that size with a very good cut is an unrealistic amount. She is not working with the secondary market, so it doesn't really apply here. The 4c G VS you noted sounds about right!




BTW storm, that GOG 4.10 is a HOT TAMALE. That Scope image and Bscope results, WOW.




4c may be too big for little ole me (I know, sacrilege

), but it sure is a beauty!!!

 

[fire&ice]

I'm trying to remember all my things learned while viewing large stones. It's so hard to put into words what you see. Could the very fact that the star facets are much larger make the stone appear darker?

Still, if it doesn't wow you keep looking.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 12/2/2003 6:00:46 PM Mara wrote:


I tend to think that $29k for a stone of that size with a very good cut is an unrealistic amount. She is not working with the secondary market, so it doesn't really apply here. The 4c G VS you noted sounds about right!


!!
----------------

She may indeed be working with the secondary market. The 4c++ (closer to 4.5+) was a trade in from someone who purchased a 10c stone from him - if you can believe it. This 4.5c was heavy feeling on my hand. I can not imagine what a 10c would be like. This was a regular jewelery store.

Also, while 29k may be low, I was told all sorts of things when searching for my diamond. I was told I couldn't get what I wanted for under 35K. I know I told Stephcola this with all they naysayers in that thread.

Anyway, jumping the gun here. What are your goals & budget.

Also, while cut is king here, it is the least important "c" when determining the price of a stone in the marketplace.

 

[diamondsareagirlsbestfriend]

I found a 4.15 on Pricescope with Whiteflash with almost the EXACT same EGL stats, for 28,000. And actually this stone on their website had better polish, with no Fluorescence. But unfortunately, no one from Whiteflash ever called me back, and without comparing them side by side it does me no good.

The first time I looked at this stone, I fell in love with it - the thing that through me for the loop was when it was sitting on my finger next to my existing ring, and it made my G/H look like an E, and vice versa! (As you can tell, color is a big factor for me

)

And the kicker is, this stone is so eye clean to the other three stones I've seen, so go figure. I have a 4.15 F color EGL coming in from another source, but it is in certification with EGL Israel vs. EGL in the USA - so will this throw the curve off?

 

[Mara]

Isn't secondary market when you are not working with a jeweler, but rather a private party or similar? I would think any jeweler would mark up any stone, whether it's a trade-in or a return etc...and not sell it for too low beneath what he could get without discounting. I am not too sure what the definition is but I thought secondary market was not a retail jeweler?




I tried on the 5c oval recently and it was TOO HUGE. I think 3c may be my max...though I don't know..that diamond shrinkage syndrome seems to get the best of us.

EGL certs are usually discounted over something like a GIA or AGS...possibly where the price differences come from....still I tend to think the price is low for a well-cut stone. EGL USA is more reputable than Israel...definitely get the stone checked out.

 

[Caratz]

----------------
On 12/2/2003 5:51:29 PM strmrdr wrote:

----------------
On 12/2/2003 5:45:01 PM Caratz wrote:

-



With an HCA score of 2.2, this stone should not appear dark, and should not resemble a chunk of charcoal. Looks like a good price if it is in fact E and an an eye clean SI2.----------------

Without the cutlet size you cant get an accurate hca from percentages and egl as I understand it rounds the numbers off anyway.
The price is 6k-10k+++ under pricescope price for reasonable cut diamonds 4ct range.
----------------

Garry has said that the percentages are not as accurate as the angles, but for purposes of coming up with a rough idea, it is still a useful tool. Even if EGL rounds the numbers, the stone should not appear dark with those numbers.

 

[diamondsareagirlsbestfriend]

they had three people within their company take their turn with it, and they stand by a solid E (with my current diamond, it was an "F" when I bought it, only to have it recertified later and turn out a G/H later, so you understand why I'm cautious - different jeweler than the one I'm dealing with).

So, bottom line is, if I look at it again, love it, get the guarantee in replacing it in writing ...? This company has been around this area for a long time, so it would not be to their advantage to try to pull one over, but you never know! Good thing the hubby is an attorney

 

[Mara]

I personally would not rush. Sounds like you just started looking? Why not wait for something that really pops at you? This is not a purchase you should take lightly, it's a huge upgrade and alot of $$.




That said...get it all in writing and get it independently appraised. Hope it turns out well, good luck!




Random Q...how could your original diamond have been re-certified and end up G/H? What lab certifies split grades?

 

[fire&ice]

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On 12/2/2003 6:11:04 PM Mara wrote:


Isn't secondary market when you are not working with a jeweler, but rather a private party or similar? I would think any jeweler would mark up any stone, whether it's a trade-in or a return etc...and not sell it for too low beneath what he could get without discounting. I am not too sure what the definition is but I though secondary market was not a retail jeweler?


I tried on the 5c oval recently and it was TOO HUGE. I think 3c may be my max...though I don't know..that diamond shrinkage syndrome seems to get the best of us.

EGL certs are usually discounted over something like a GIA or AGS...possibly where the price differences come from....still I tend to think the price is low for a well-cut stone. EGL USA is more reputable than Israel...definitely get the stone checked out.
----------------

In my biz, the secondary market is a nice way of saying "used". Many jeweler's have an estate section. These are usually purchased from attorney/executors looking to liquidate an estate. Buying directly from them is the bargin. But, most dealers I know who do the cross-over stuff will discount the price to move it quicker. When dealing with the secondary market, traditional retail goes out the window (and sometimes logic). I know I have flipped stuff for pennies on the dollar because I got it cheap cheap & have no interest in selling that "genre". An extreme case , but somewhere in the middle lies the price. Tons of nuances. Some dealers do buy at auctions or from individuals & take the stone out of it's setting. Some sell at retail. The one's I know do not. The discrepancy in price b/t the internet & "used" is much closer to one antoher.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 12/2/2003 6:21:01 PM Mara wrote:


I personally would not rush. Sounds like you just started looking? Why not wait for something that really pops at you? This is not a purchase you should take lightly, it's a huge upgrade and alot of $$.


-

Well, I'm with you on that one. 4c's are not the quickest of movers. Make sure you see a few (2-3 stones). It won't be easy; but, it's doable.

 

[valeria101]

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On 12/2/2003 6:18:31 PM diamondsareagirlsbestfriend wrote:
So, bottom line is, if I look at it again, love it, get the guarantee in replacing it in writing ...? ----------------

If you already found a simmilar deal, it means that there is no real time preassure (you don't have to close this in hours, maybe days?). The stone should be a wooper

. I don't expect the current cert to have mistaken more than a color grade, so this should be white. Can you check wether the 'dark' appearance has something to do with your comparing an unset stone with a set one? Big diamonds do not necessarily look the same as those fiery dots after all. To me, the details of the cut in a ct stone dissapear at arm lenght (in favor of a sparkling splash) while something twice bigger will give a different look (something like a close-up of the former). It is hard to tell what 'dark' means for a colorless piece of transparent crystal

...

I see no detraction to this piece (ok, it might not have the BEST light return out there, but it is a huge, top color, well cut, clear, piece of ice

) Getting a 2ct for the honors of H&A, well, this may not mean 300% improvement after all, but it is your call to tell.

I can't imagine what vendor would overlook this transaction either.

 

[fire&ice]

Also, I don't know if someone has pointed this out to you; but, the larger the stone the more body color will show. You can not hold it against a small stone & expect the color to "perform" the same.

 

[diamondsareagirlsbestfriend]

I think that this is what the owner was trying to explain to me - and yes, this diamond was also in a setting - mine in 18k gold, the 4 ct in a platinum solitaire.

Bottom line, my husband is drawing up a document to confirm what they verbally told me re: independent certification and if it came in different than what they showed on the EGL cert -

By the way - when I was looking at GIA and EGL diamonds, I found a substantial difference in price between the two - what gives??? This company I am dealing with also offered to send it out to an "independent appraisal through AGL, but not GIA - is this common?

Thanks to everyone so far for all the info - knowledge is power!

 

[valeria101]

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On 12/2/2003 8:14:52 PM diamondsareagirlsbestfriend wrote:
By the way - when I was looking at GIA and EGL diamonds, I found a substantial difference in price between the two - what gives?----------------

You will find a dozen posts on PS about EGL being more "lenient" in grading than GIA. Why and how much this brings prices down? Who knows... if you are getting the stone regraded by GIA all this is irrelevat. I would not jump to conclusion that all EGL diamonds are ament for a rip off. After all, the above-mentioned bias in grading is neither consistent nor reliable for anyone, and, sometimes, sellers have a hard time finding reasons to lower the price of just one stone.

Can you get some evaluation of the cut (Sarin, ISEE, Brilliance Scope or whatever) with the ocasion of the appraisal? GIA does not provide these, but some appraisers do... and this would put to rest the discussion about wether this is a good, bad, or "run-for-your-life" cut without your having to line-up a hundred 4cts E-SI for this.

 

[stephcola]

Hi,


Thought I'd add my 2 cents to this discussion. I just purchased a 3.01 ct. stone after my original engagement ring was stolen. I was one of the ones for which it took about 4 months. I purchased and returned 3 stones and kept the last. I am a big diamond type of girl. I have always had a 3 ct. ring. I was offered a 4 ct. by a local reputable dealer who was offering me a GIA diamond (I) SI1 vg/vg - I passed on this mostly because it looked too big for me and also had a carbon spot . I was delighted with the 3.38 and 3.29 that I briefly owned but the 4 seemed like overkill. After all the advice and help I recd from all my pricescope friends, I ended up with a 3.01 with a 1.2 FIC rating. I did send it off to Rich Sherwood - one of the appraisers pricescope highly recommends. I highly recommend this!!!He is great and he has given me total peace of mind. As a neurotic, I wanted to make sure I had exactly what I was supposed to have and that it was o.k.




From my very limited knowledge but great research I have found that EGL stones are lower priced (MUCH LOWER) because they are usually more leniently graded. An (E) for example could be an (F) or (G) and a SI2 can be an I1 or I2. If that is correct, your stone may be priced right for what you got - not what you were supposed to get- capiche??? If a diamond wholesaler has a beauty of a stone - he (or she) will send it to GIA of AGS to be certified. If he doesn't think it is so hot, he will send it to EGL.EGL certification is about $50. as compared to GIA which is about $200. There is a market and buyer for every stone. I started off with my jeweler in NY's diamond district. When I told him I looked at an EGL stone, he told me he would not sell me one or for that matter ever let his daughter have one . Several vendors on pricescope told me the same thing - although they do list these on their sites. In a 4 ct size, I cannot imagine an SI2 can look so clean. The larger the stone, the more area to see the inclusions. Has this been laser drilled??? I looked at dozens of stones between 3 and 4 cts and with the exception of the stone I kept (SI1), I could see the inclusions in each and every one of them.




Does your jeweler have a good return policy???? You should look at alot of stones, and keep posting details. Read the tutorials and keep asking for advice. After all your homework, you will be totally prepared to get the best possible diamond you can afford. I kind of did it backwards, which is why I ask about the return policy. Fortunately both of the stones I returned had a 30 day no questions asked..... This allowed me to learn what I wanted and did not want .....along the way. A totally eyeclean SI2 (which is almost an impossibility in itself) in an E color - 4 cts for $28K ------Sounds too good to be true. Most 3 cts with the same stats would be more!!!Go

od luck!!!

 

[fire&ice]

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On 12/2/2003 8:14:52 PM diamondsareagirlsbestfriend wrote:

This company I am dealing with also offered to send it out to an 'independent appraisal through AGL, but not GIA - is this common?

Thanks to everyone so far for all the info - knowledge is power!----------------

NO! If you want to send it to a lab, send it to GIA. BUT, by independent appraisal, we are not talking about sending the stone to a more lenient AGL lab than EGL. Send the stone to an independent appraiser - an individual like Richard Sherwood, Dave Atlas, New England Gem, Martin Fuller. See the list on Pricescope - do a search on testominials or find one close to you.

Anyone care to chime in about AGL certs or grading? Am I off base here?