4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Price?

[georgiosr]

I am looking for a fair estimate before I let my stone go....
I have a Round Brilliand - Old Miners Cut stone that weights 4.2 Ct.
Clarity Grade: VVS1
Colour: J or K according to some
Measurements: Approx. 10.24 - 10.26 x 5.83 mm
Stone had not certificate yet but above gradings have come from 2 different reputable Gemologists.

I have been offered a 4,200 USD per Ct which I think is too low...
Could you guide me on what to expect to sell this stone for? Fair Price so will not feel like i have been ripped off??

Stone is in Europe and trying to sell it in Belgium

Thanks for your your help

 

[rosetta]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

That's a very low price!

I can't tell much about the stone from the picture. Tread very carefully.

 

[justginger]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

That is a low price. But are you trying to sell to a retailer? If so, it's not uncommon for them to offer you a very low buying price - they're assuming a fair bit of risk by tying up their capital in a stone that may take some time to sell. If you were willing to get this stone properly graded (GIA or EGL, as it is an old cut) and appraised, you would be able to sell it for far more on your own, directly to the next owner. You could even consider consigning it with one of the PS vendors for a wide market and professional service.

I would expect a stone of this size and stats to retail for at least $40,000, if not 50k+. I would NOT sell it for $16k.

 

[rosetta]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

I'd certainly be interested in this stone for 16k!

 

[justginger]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

I'd certainly be interested in this stone for 16k!

I thought about asking for his Paypal details.

 

[susimoo]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

I'd certainly be interested in this stone for 16k!

I thought about asking for his Paypal details.

If only we had PM's!!

 

[SB621]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

That is a low price. But are you trying to sell to a retailer? If so, it's not uncommon for them to offer you a very low buying price - they're assuming a fair bit of risk by tying up their capital in a stone that may take some time to sell. If you were willing to get this stone properly graded (GIA or EGL, as it is an old cut) and appraised, you would be able to sell it for far more on your own, directly to the next owner. You could even consider consigning it with one of the PS vendors for a wide market and professional service.

I would expect a stone of this size and stats to retail for at least $40,000, if not 50k+. I would NOT sell it for $16k.

First you really need to have it graded as Ginger already stated. However we will assume that it does come back graded with the specs you gave. I agree with Ginger that retail the price is in the high 40's or 50's however that is retail. I think for resale in the secondary market the very best you could get is in high 30's. If you are not looking for a quick sale I would look into Jewels by Erica Grace or Pearlmans to see if they can sell on your behalf though they will take a cut of the profits. However then you get piece of mind during the sale and don't have to worry about all the paperwork, marketing etc so it is a trade off.

Goodluck----and definitely don't sell it for 16k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I personally would not go below 28k and even then that would be a desperate sale if I needed funds ASAP.

 

[georgiosr]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

That is a low price. But are you trying to sell to a retailer? If so, it's not uncommon for them to offer you a very low buying price - they're assuming a fair bit of risk by tying up their capital in a stone that may take some time to sell. If you were willing to get this stone properly graded (GIA or EGL, as it is an old cut) and appraised, you would be able to sell it for far more on your own, directly to the next owner. You could even consider consigning it with one of the PS vendors for a wide market and professional service.

I would expect a stone of this size and stats to retail for at least $40,000, if not 50k+. I would NOT sell it for $16k.

Thanks "Justginger" for your reply. I am trying to help a relative in selling this stone.
I will be going for a Certfication then since the only certificate I have is from an independent GEMOLOGIST.
Since the Stone is in Belgium they told me that to certify it for GIA it would have to be sent to USA.
Others tell me to certify it as IGI as GIA is too strict etc... But Can't understand the reason why not to have it GIA from the beggining...

Also another recommendation was to cut it to a Modern stone apparently to make it more sellable... Any suggestion on this?

I am learning about Stones at the moment too.. so sorry for my questions..

 

[chrono]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

GIA is not more strict - it is accurate while the other labs like IGI are not. Hence, with a GIA memo, it will also sell for more than if it came with an IGI memo. I would not recut it at this time and would sell it as is.

 

[SB621]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

GIA is the standard so if you grade it by anything else most people won't consider it. I would go with GIA as it makes it more marketable. Since it is an old cut you could also go with EGL which grades softer then GIA but still accepted for these types of stones.

And to put it bluntly I think it would be extremely foolish to recut this diamond into a RB. You will loose carat weight and right now there is demand for old cuts. You would be wasting time and I feel you would probably loose money.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Absolutely do not recut. But speculation on it's value is impossible without reliable grading. If one of the appraisers comes here, perhaps they can tell you if there is a reliable lab in Europe. I am not sure how you could even insure it to be sent to the US without proof of value.

 

[georgiosr]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Thank you all for the Advice. I have now asked for the Diamond to be send for GIA Certification. Hope that will not take too long as the Diamond is now in Belgium and I guess it will have to travel to USA.

Last Question.. I see that GIA offers the option to Lazer Mark the GIA No. on the Diamond. Would you suggest this?

Wishing you all a Healthy and Peaceful 2013

 

[madelise]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Thank you all for the Advice. I have now asked for the Diamond to be send for GIA Certification. Hope that will not take too long as the Diamond is now in Belgium and I guess it will have to travel to USA.

Last Question.. I see that GIA offers the option to Lazer Mark the GIA No. on the Diamond. Would you suggest this?

Wishing you all a Healthy and Peaceful 2013

If you're sending it to the US for GIA, why not sell it while here? Or consign it at a US based jeweler, like Jewels by Erica Grace or with Good Old Gold? You may sell it faster/ for a higher price, since Americans love buying larger diamonds, whereas it's more seen as frivolous in other parts of the world (BUT THEY'RE GETTING THERE! ).

 

[jstarfireb]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

I would actually consider sending it to EGL instead of GIA. I don't remember exactly where I've heard this, but I've been told they're actually pretty good with grading old cut diamonds, and most people who deal in old cuts expect an EGL report. Unfortunately EGL-USA is known to be the most accurate at grading, so it would still involve sending it to the US.

I'm not sure exactly where you are in the process, but I'm pretty sure it has to be removed from the ring to get a proper grade. GIA usually doesn't grade set stones (I think! Correct me if I'm wrong.).

Either way, I think you're making the right move in getting it graded, because very few people are willing to buy a diamond that large in today's market without the proper papers.

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

In Belgium consider HRD. I don't know if they work with individuals or not bue a jeweler should be able to help. You'll need to take it out of the mounting and you would be wise to use a pro for that anyway. It's likely to be easier to sell out of the mounting in any case.

Grading is a big deal. The difference between a VVS1/J and a SI1/L is more than a factor of 2. Surveying gemologists is not a good strategy for deciding the difference. NO gemologist can correctly grade a VVS1 mounted by the way. There's too much hidden by the prongs.

 

[justginger]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

This is what I would do.

Email Erica or Grace at Jewels by Erica Grace. http://www.jewelsbyericagrace.com They do consignments for a fair cut of the selling price, will be able to sell for more than you can, are extremely knowledgeable, and are (most importantly when dealing with a diamond of this value) TRUSTWORTHY.

Facilitate having the stone sent to EGL or GIA (almost all antique cut stones are dealt with through EGL, right or wrong - while GIA is more accurate, buyers of old stones pretty much expect EGL certification) through Erica or Grace.

Sit back while their good reputation and connections sell this stone on your behalf.


Please do not rush this sale or cut corners. You stand to lose a lot of money if you don't proceed with correct certification and having a jewelry professional deal with the consignment on your behalf.

 

[justginger]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

I almost forgot - do not, not, not, not, not, not....NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT...NOT have this recut into a modern stone. There is a serious demand for old cut stones right now, and one this large in a relatively high color and clarity combo is one in a million. Don't let ridiculous modern jewelers talk you into thinking you will achieve a faster, higher sale for a modern cut stone. To the right buyer, a stone with these stats is worth a fortune.

 

[georgiosr]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Hi "Justginger". I have followed your advice and have emailed Erica/Grace to get a first contact.
EGL has an office in Belgium so that might be a quick solution to an internationally recognized certificate.
Stone will not be cut after all these replies..... rest assured

I just wish there was such a demand for old stones here in Europe as it is USA...

Still feeling so uneasy to send the stone all over the world but I guess there is no other way around it...

Wishing you all the very best for 2013

 

[justginger]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

i know it sounds like a pain to send the stone internationally, but it will be a better market for your selling price.

I am keen to hear what Grace/Erica have to say about this stone, and see some of their photos of it. Please keep us updated.

 

[Enerchi]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

I've been following this and holding my breathe, so I'm also VERY glad that you are following JG's advice and NOT recutting this stone!!! I, too am very interested in how this pans out - good luck with your EGL grading and I think consigning with someone like JbEG will pay off for you, in the long run. Yes, hassle from Europe, but overall, a much better return on your investment.

Best of luck!!

 

[georgiosr]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Last question I promise ....
You all mention above the EGL certificate in your replies.
Going for GIA you think might be a risk on low grading of the stone?

 

[anne_h]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Last question I promise ....
You all mention above the EGL certificate in your replies.
Going for GIA you think might be a risk on low grading of the stone?

GIA is the 'gold standard' - the most widely recognized and respected. They will grade the most strictly, but also the most accurately. Many serious buyers will only buy GIA graded stones.

That said, in the antique stone market, EGL is also sometimes accepted. I believe that if you use EGL, EGLUSA is the "most" trusted. (Someone else chime in if I'm wrong.)

I bought a large antique stone in the last two years, and I personally wanted a GIA cert.

And I agree with the others, do not recut!! And you'll probably get access to the most buyers if you sell in the USA. I second that Jewels by Erica Grace is a good choice for consignment selling, they are fair, know the antiques market well, and a lot of buyers come to them.

Keep us posted!

Anne

 

[rosetta]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Hi "Justginger". I have followed your advice and have emailed Erica/Grace to get a first contact.
EGL has an office in Belgium so that might be a quick solution to an internationally recognized certificate.
Stone will not be cut after all these replies..... rest assured

I just wish there was such a demand for old stones here in Europe as it is USA...

Still feeling so uneasy to send the stone all over the world but I guess there is no other way around it...

Wishing you all the very best for 2013

Hey I'm in Europe and would love a 4 ct stone!

 

[hippi_pixi]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

i for one would love to find out where this stone ends up, see more pictures and find out the price tag

 

[georgiosr]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

I would post a follow up once stone has been Graded by GIA etc..
I am still undecided if i should make a lazer inscription of the GIA certificate on the stone... any feedback on this?

Also many of you recommend here the company Jewels by Erika Grace - (http://www.jewelsbyericagrace.com/).
Is this a company that someone can trust? Do they have Jewelery shops in USA or just internet presence?

Many thanks and Happy New year to all

 

[LibbyLA]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Jewels by Erica Grace is a partnership of two women who have an internet presence. There are quite a few Pricescopers who've done business with them, and I'm among those. I bought an old-European-cut oval from them and had them set it in one of their signature settings. They have an excellent reputation here. They wouldn't be recommended if they couldn't be trusted. Erica sometimes posts here, too.

Some PSers have met one or both of them in person.

I don't think you have anything to worry about!

If you're going to use them to sell your diamond, ask them what they think about the laser inscription. My 2.06 ct. oval (not the OEC one) has a laser inscription.

liz

 

[chrono]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

The laser inscription is a nice touch to help the buyer and new owner ID the stone in addition to verification of the stats to the memo, but not necessary.

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: 4.2 Ct Old Miner Cut Diamond - VVS1 - Colour J or K - Pr

Last question I promise ....
You all mention above the EGL certificate in your replies.
Going for GIA you think might be a risk on low grading of the stone?

This is a common general question. The stone is whatever it is. You’re asking about what is the best way to advertise it. That is to say, what is the best way to find and convince a customer that it is what it is?

You’ve stated several things as ‘facts’ that tend to drive the price. Weight, clarity and color. 4.20/VVS1-J-K. None of these are backed up by much and any potential customer with any sense is going to want more solid data. The options are by doing it with their own expertise (which is what your current crop of buyers are doing), to rely on some expert that you provide (ex GIA, EGL, HRD, appraisals, etc.) or to rely on their own expert (an appraiser or lab hired by THEM). That’s it, and the final decision is in the buyers hands. You can say whatever you want but if they don’t believe you, they’ll do it however they want.

That’s why this balancing act is so important. As a seller, naturally you want to use 4.20+/J/VVS1 and then have the buffer be a K. The ‘high’ is J, the low is ‘K’ and the other attributes are fixed. This may be true but I guarantee it’s not the thought process of your buyer. They’re thinking VS2,L, 3.90. That difference is HUGE. Why should they expect differently? The majority of gemologists you’ve surveyed said differently? I’m not convinced. They won’t be either. This is what the lab is for. The easiest is the weight. 3.90cts and approximately 4.2cts are importantly different but it’s easy enough to tell and it’s the reason that any lab that a buyer will consider relying on will examine only unmounted stones. Someone with credibility actually weighed it had here are their results. What about VVS1-VS2 and various grades between? Again, it’s usually not all that difficult but this is the tricky part. The buyer is relying on a 3rd party to answer this. That’s the lab. That’s why it’s so important who the lab is. You would like your buyer to think nice things and it’s nearly certain that EGL will say nicer things than GIA but the credibility of the lab then becomes a modifier. If you look through the database you’ll notice that GIA graded stones are generally significantly more than similarly described stones from EGL. EGL-USA is significantly more expensive than EGL-International. This isn’t about the stone and it isn’t about the lab fees. It’s a ‘premium’ being applied because the labs aren’t seen as identical. One’s idea of VVS1 can be someone else’s idea of VS2 etc.

Back to your comment and the reason for this post. The ‘risk’ of a lower grade is significant. I would guess it’s almost certain actually. And that MAY even be a reason to go with a different lab (who also may give you a lower grade by the way) but you are giving up something as well as gaining. This is a huge part of the value-add of your broker and I second the suggestion of making a relationship with someone in the business to help navigate you through this. You’ve made some critical assumptions and are looking to make a conclusion from there and you need to back up. What really do you have? What is the best marketplace to approach for the most money, fastest and with the least risk or expenses? What is the best way to advertise it to the market you’ve chosen? Unfortunately, these things are not all compatible and experience really does help.