2004 Politics Thread: Are you going to VOTE??

[PaulaW]

Yes, I am voting and it will likely be for Bush, much to my fiance's chagrin.
Anyone here believe the rumor that Bush will dump Cheney and run with Guliani? If so, that would further solidify my vote.

 

[questionsRus]

I'll be voting, and it will be for Bush as well.

 

[Rank Amateur]

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On 7/9/2004 11:15:44 AM fire&ice wrote:

Our vote does count. I saw the results of our Supervisor race. The guy I voted for literally won by 6 or so votes. My husband & I being two of them. Aside from the fact that he was the incumbent & I have no complaints, I voted for him because he always knocks on our door, introduces himself & gives us a pen! Not a very intellectual reason; but, I like a politician who speaks to the regular folk.

Though I think it is our civic duty to learn the candidates platform, I think it's elitest to say that one shouldn't vote if not informed. Informed by WHO? Fox news? The National Review? CNN? The Village Voice? The guy on the bus taking you to the voting precints? Negative ads?

You know the reason why I lean towards the 'he's not Bush' candidate. All these things happened on G. Bush's watch. I'm not debating that it's his fault. But, I do take the stance that this guy is not lucky.

the whole debacle that was the Election
911
Antrax
War in Afganistan
Virtual Meltdown in the Stock Market
Enron,worldcom,etc.-loss of confidence in the sys.
Failing Economy
Exporting of jobs
Neo Conservatism a la Wolfolwich (sp?)
War in Iraq
Severe deficit spending
Scary mounting debt
Erosion of the Women's right to choose
And, Reality TV Shows

(some of which I admittedly watch)

Again, not blaming him. But, at a certain point, I've got to think, at the very least, this guy is unlucky.

BTW, I have not decided who I am voting for. But, in my mind, this is a valid reason to not vote for Bush. I've been with the Devil for 4 years. Things haven't been good.

I would have voted for a Gephart/Kerry ticket. But, I *hate* Edwards. Funny, I don't see how Kerry thinks he will have some influence in the South. NC feels deserted by this guy. Even my staunchest Demo friends feel betrayed by Edwards.

Wow, I'm feeling rather political today.

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Both the Election and the Failing Economy/Fall of the Stock Market were on Clinton's watch. These facts are conviently forgotten by most people.

 

[fire&ice]

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Both the Election and the Failing Economy/Fall of the Stock Market were on Clinton's watch. These facts are conviently forgotten by most people.
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That's the "factual" spin according to Republicans.

Informed by who can make claim in either direction.

F&I....still undecided. Though I'd vote for a Bush/Guiliani ticket.

 

[AGBF]

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On 7/28/2004 4:52:50 PM Rank Amateur wrote:

"Both the Election and the Failing Economy/Fall of the Stock Market were on Clinton's watch. These facts are conviently forgotten by most people."

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You're being a bit disingenuous here, R/A. The election may have occurred during Clinton's presidency, but the Florida results were tallied while Jeb Bush was the governor of Florida!

You are also dodging the points I made while looking for a softer target in this minutiae. Have you read any synopsis of the 9/11 Commission? If so, how can George Bush still remain your fair-haired boy? And, no, you didn't say he was, but by gum, you are still defending the man!

Your friend,

 

[daboyzmomi]

Now as a note, I DO NOT generally get involved in politics but do just have to post this eye opening amendment to our Constitution for exploration...You can make your own assumptions who I will be voting for...

UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
Amendment XIV

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

 

[Rank Amateur]

I have not read the results of the 9/11 commission, nor do I care to. I find it a colossal waste of money and time.

I do not blame Clinton for what happened, nor do I blame Bush. There are a lot of bad people in this world and sometimes there is no stopping them.

You certainly are correct about Jeb Bush being the Governor of Florida at the time. So what? Did he do all he could to get his brother elected? Probably. In the end it was close, but Bush won. Get over it. To say that it was on GWB's "watch" is a long stretch indeed.

Anthrax? Tough to pin that on Bush, even for the coldest of hearts.

Afghanistan? Definitely. A good thing in my mind.

Enron? Please. Most of that mess was during the Clinton years, but I don't blame Bill. American greed is to blame.

Failing Economy? Failing in what sense? You might better call it flat than failing. Regardless, the PreZ has little to do with it except recommend legislation, and Bush is pro-business, right?

Exporting of Jobs - See American Greed above. Why should Bush stop the company you own stock in from outsourcing? You want your stock to go up AND you want your products cheap. Don't blame the Prez.

Neo Conservatism. I admittedly don't know what this is other than it's perjorative sense. Maybe I should google it.

War in Iraq. Yep, that's GWB's doing. You've got to like a man who makes decisions based on principle even though he knows he will get ripped in the media. Another good thing in my book. We can argue about WMDs all day and night, but the bottom line is that GWB's gut told him to go after Saddam and he DID it.

Severe Deficit Spending. This I agree with. War or not, Government is getting bigger, not smaller. Not a good thing.

Scary Mounting Debt. This doesn't scare me much. Should it? I don't think so.

Erosion of Women's Right to Choose. Tough one. Limits on the whens and hows of abortion are a good thing. I am not up on this issue to know where it stands, nor do I know what GWB has done regarding this. I presume you can still get one if you make up your mind early enough. Doctors don't like to do them, and I don't blame them one bit.

Reality TV -

- Got no use for it unless the "reality" is a pro sport!

Hows that?

 

[Rank Amateur]

DBM

You'll have to clue me in on what the 14th amendment has to do with anything. It had to do with those who pledged their allegiance to the Confererate States during the Civil War, no?

You could stretch arguments to both Kerry and Bush, but neither holds much water.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/29/2004 5:39:49 PM Rank Amateur wrote:


Anthrax? Tough to pin that on Bush, even for the coldest of hearts.

Hows that?

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R/A did I ever "pin" anything on Bush. All those things blew up when he was in office. Call me crazy, but I find him to be unlucky.

Cold of heart? What happened to the compassionate conservative? Don't see it now. I feel deceived.

 

[Icicles]

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On 7/29/2004 5:39:49 PM Rank Amateur wrote:



Erosion of Women's Right to Choose. Tough one. Limits on the whens and hows of abortion are a good thing. I am not up on this issue to know where it stands, nor do I know what GWB has done regarding this. I presume you can still get one if you make up you mind early enough. Doctors don't like to do them and I don't blame them one bit.

Hows that?

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Limits aren't always good. Suppose the mother, who is in her late second-trimester, would die of complications if her extremely deformed child is born. Would you let her die to save the child? How about a child who would be born without a brain? Imagine the anguish the mother would have to endure to carry the child to term? Things aren't always so black and white.

Don't get me wrong. I don't approve of abortions either, but women should have the right to choose, and Bush is trying to take that right away.

If it were up to me, people wouldn't be allowed to have kids until they can prove to be responsible financially, physically, and mentally enough to take care of their own kids. Homo Sapiens are overpopulated enough anyway.

 

[CaptAubrey]

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On 7/29/2004 4:12:55 PM daboyzmomi wrote:





UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
Amendment XIV

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


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"aid and comfort" has a fairly established meaning, and it doesn't include merely shooting off one's mouth (see amendment I), nor voting a particular way while in office. implying either is extreme and irresponsible, imo, not to mention undemocratic.

i know for whom i'm voting, but i think this thread is inappropriate for pricescope.

 

[Rank Amateur]

After hearing his acceptance speech tonight, I am now voting for Kerry.

 

[fire&ice]

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i know for whom i'm voting, but i think this thread is inappropriate for pricescope.

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Yet, you participated in this inappropriate thread!

So, R/A - what made you see the light last night?

I missed the speech. Not that I think he's the best speaker - but did he have anything inspiring to say? If no, please elaborate.

We really are polarized in this country. My husband is a closet Republican. We had a lengthy dinner with an officer of our local Democratic Party. These are friends for 25-30 years. Sparks were flying when the topic of politics came up. Though bloodied, nobody died.

Oh, R/A to the issue of Cold Hearted. When asking a friend who they were voting for, her immediate response "Bush, Kerry will raise my taxes. We already pay enough."

 

[Icicles]

The reason we (speaking for middle-class America) pay so much taxes is because the upper-class don't pay enough. There are too many loopholes they can go thru, and we're paying for it.

In his speech, Kerry said that he will be lowering taxes for middle class, and raising it for the richest of America. He will be closing the loopholes so that money stops leaking out. I don't know if he'll be able to do it, but that's enough to get my vote.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/30/2004 11:32:38 AM Icicles wrote:

The reason we (speaking for middle-class America) pay so much taxes is because the upper-class don't pay enough. There are too many loopholes they can go thru, and we're paying for it.

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This is simply not true. Trust me.

Research Alternative Minimum Tax. Research all the and & except income tax limits on deductions.

The only loop hole that still exists are in the rental area & only via roll overs. I would like to specifically know what Kerry deems as "Loopholes". Please enlighten me as I would love to take advantage of them.

If you are talking about money funneling, then you are talking about people who make well into the millions. A small amount of Americans - and even *they* pay the lions share of taxes.

It drives me crazy that people seem to think that a household making into the 6 figures don't pay a disproportionate amount of income tax.

 

[Rank Amateur]

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On 7/30/2004 11:32:38 AM Icicles wrote:

The reason we (speaking for middle-class America) pay so much taxes is because the upper-class don't pay enough. There are too many loopholes they can go thru, and we're paying for it.

In his speech, Kerry said that he will be lowering taxes for middle class, and raising it for the richest of America. He will be closing the loopholes so that money stops leaking out. I don't know if he'll be able to do it, but that's enough to get my vote. ----------------

You have it backwards. The reason the middle class pays so LITTLE in taxes is that the high wage earners pay so MUCH. Look at the statistics rather than taking a politician on his word. I paid NO federal income tax last year - and most would consider me middle class. Get you facts straight or simply admit to your class envy and be done with it.

 

[Icicles]

----------------[/quote]
It drives me crazy that people seem to think that a household making into the 6 figures don't pay a disproportionate amount of income tax.

----------------[/quote]


i guess i should have been more specific. 6 figures may be considered upper-class to many, but it really isn't. An average two-income family can easily make $150,000/yr. The real "upper-class", also known as Corporate America, make beyond 10 figures/yr. If just one of them can sneak out 1%, that's a lot of money.

And it's actually quite easy to find loopholes in the tax system. My friend's parents live off their real estate, and they make millions. They buy and sell houses every year, and they have never had to pay income tax, not even once... and it's totally legal. His dad has gotten audited at least once every 5 years, and his record is completely clean. Not cool.

 

[Icicles]

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On 7/30/2004 12:38:54 PM Rank Amateur wrote:

You have it backwards. The reason the middle class pays so LITTLE in taxes is that the high wage earners pay so MUCH. Look at the statistics rather than taking a politician on his word. I paid NO federal income tax last year - and most would consider me middle class. Get you facts straight or simply admit to your class envy and be done with it.
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Perhaps you are an exception. Not everybody has the option of not paying Fed. Taxes. I make close to 6 figures and I pay a ton of taxes... roughly 30%! Most people i know get taxed about the same. No Federal taxes? i need to do what you do!

Looking at statistics isn't enough. There's always a way to get out of paying taxes, and your statistics will never show it. I just posted an example about my friend's parents.

and yes, i do have class envy. I want to make millions a year!

 

[Greg]

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On 7/30/2004 10:26:43 AM fire&ice wrote:

----------------We really are polarized in this country.---------------

So true. And how many times did Bush say, "I'm a uniter, not a divider" in the 2000 election?

He also said, repeatedly, that he would not allow the U.S. Military to engage in "nation building." No way he would follow Clinton's foray into nation building (in the Balkans), he said. He was very passionate on this point and I agreed with him wholeheartedly.

I liked Bush in 2000 and I voted him. But the candidate I voted for is not the president we got. WMD's aside, Bush has proven to be completely unreliable.

 

[Rank Amateur]

The Federal Tax Rate on $100,000 is just under 19%. If you make $100k you probably have more than $30k in deductions. At $70k taxable you are paying under 12% net. Not 30%.

Not even close.

 

[Icicles]

oops, I added state tax and SS in too. I guess Kerry wont have much impact on those. Either way, I'm paying close to 30%. Single, no kids, and no house yet because California real estate's ridiculous. 500k will barely buy you a 2bed/2 bath.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Politicians fall all over themselves pandering to us. It drives me crazy.

 

[Icicles]

they're called public servants for a reason.

 

[AGBF]

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On 7/29/2004 11:55:44 PM Rank Amateur wrote:

After hearing his acceptance speech tonight, I am now voting for Kerry.----------------

Really? Why? (Legitimate curiosity here this time, although you may be pardoned for assuming cynicism.)

BTW, you totally misunderstood what I accused you of avoiding above .

Your friend,

 

[Rank Amateur]

I was dodging? In this thread?

That's a lie!!

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/30/2004 12:49:17 PM Icicles wrote:

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And it's actually quite easy to find loopholes in the tax system. My friend's parents live off their real estate, and they make millions. They buy and sell houses every year, and they have never had to pay income tax, not even once... and it's totally legal. His dad has gotten audited at least once every 5 years, and his record is completely clean. Not cool.

----------------[/quote]


This is the only loophole that I was refering to - it's "like property" purchase - and those people are providing a service. Eventually, one has to pay the tax - unless it becomes part of an estate that doesn't fall *over* the estate tax exception (1.5 million in 2004 - phased out for ten years then reexamined again). I had lunch with my accountant today.

Please tell me more about the loopholes that the very wealthy get to use. It would be a service to the community.

The amount of people making in the better 7 figures is very minute. And have always had their own rules. They aren't the tax paying base I am refering to.

You may not be aware of all the reverse loopholes that exist today. At $150k the stuff hasn't kicked in - shortly after that amount it comes in furry. Also, the AMT was put in motion to prevent people from having excessive deductions. But, with home prices the way they are today, those "excessive" deductions are no longer "excessvie" but necessary. Hasn't kept up with inflation. Most people are getting slammed with it.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/30/2004 1:22:33 PM Greg wrote:

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On 7/30/2004 10:26:43 AM fire&ice wrote:

----------------We really are polarized in this country.---------------

So true. And how many times did Bush say, 'I'm a uniter, not a divider' in the 2000 election?

He also said, repeatedly, that he would not allow the U.S. Military to engage in 'nation building.' No way he would follow Clinton's foray into nation building (in the Balkans), he said. He was very passionate on this point and I agreed with him wholeheartedly.

I liked Bush in 2000 and I voted him. But the candidate I voted for is not the president we got. WMD's aside, Bush has proven to be completely unreliable.----------------

I tend to agree with you.

Who knows. Maybe 9/11 changed him. Maybe his platform wasn't really his.

 

[Icicles]

I actually know of quite a few ways since my uncle worked for the IRS, and it's not always related to properties. It used to p*ss him off because these people were getting away with highway robbery, and there was nothing he could do about it because it was technically *legal*. Too bad nobody in my family could do it since we get audited all the time!!

 

[Greg]

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On 7/30/2004 5:52:00 PM fire&ice wrote:

----------------I tend to agree with you.

----------------

I wonder where the candidates stand on the visual effects of mb fluorescence?

 

[fire&ice]

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On 7/30/2004 6:58:38 PM Greg wrote:

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On 7/30/2004 5:52:00 PM fire&ice wrote:

----------------I tend to agree with you.

----------------

I wonder where the candidates stand on the visual effects of mb fluorescence?----------------

The one I vote for must be observant enough to notice the effect.