Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

2.69ct AGS stone got certified by GIA: G->H, VVS2->VVS1

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
B

bqnbqn

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
17
I had rush service done by GIA to grade the 2.69ct G VVS2 AGS 0 diamond from James Allen. Here's the GIA report:

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=1166358015&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

The AGS report is here:

http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104071002017-PLDQR.PDF

As expected, GIA graded it as Triple EX. To my disappointment, the color was H, not G. Clarity was VVS1, not VVS2, which was a surprise since GIA found an additional inclusion on the crown face. In short, I am still somewhat disappointed in the color downgrade as I was assured by JA's gemologist and the independent appraiser that this shouldn't have any problems getting a G color grade from GIA since this was a true G. I needed a GIA report for the peace of mind of my in-laws, by the way, as they've only bought GIA-certified diamonds. I don't want to go through the process of explaining to them AGS' merits.

I had informed JA about this. They said they stand by their gemologist and AGS and I can always return it, no discount of course if I decide to keep it. I am debating whether I should start looking for another one or keep this one as I still think most retailers, whether online or B&M, still rely on a GIA cert to determine the diamond pricing so GIA's grading still trumps AGS'. I've looked at a recent rapaport report. A G VVS2 is about 8-10% higher priced than an H VVS1 2.0-2.99ct diamond. I just feel I didn't get what I thought I was paying for :(. James Allen is checking to see if they could find a similar G VVS2 stone for me. Let's see. I'm still happy with the stone's cut, I'm just not sure if the price I paid was fair for an H VVS1 stone.
 
Although I'm not surprised, what a terrible shame. That they're willing to take it back and work through the process of sourcing another stone is admirable (and protects their revenue), but it doesn't mitigate the fact that you didn't get what you expected.
 
bqnbqn|1405031662|3710877 said:
I just feel I didn't get what I thought I was paying for :(. James Allen is checking to see if they could find a similar G VVS2 stone for me. Let's see. I'm still happy with the stone's cut, I'm just not sure if the price I paid was fair for an H VVS1 stone.
Click to expand...
Looking at the PS database, I'm not sure you can find a G+ VVS2+, no fluro, with that kind of cut quality for the amount you spent on this stone
 
RandG|1405035306|3710916 said:
Although I'm not surprised, what a terrible shame. That they're willing to take it back and work through the process of sourcing another stone is admirable (and protects their revenue), but it doesn't mitigate the fact that you didn't get what you expected.
Click to expand...
On the other hand GIA upgraded the clarity to VVS1 vs VVS2 on the AGS report.
 
James Allen sold you a stone that was graded by AGS as a G color stone. It was also AGS graded as a VVS2. That's what they offered for sale based on that cert. GIA calls it an H but also calls it a VVS1. Again, as has been explained to all of us many times, one grade in variance is not so uncommon. In terms of price, it could be called a wash with the one grade difference in color and clarity - although I'm not sure if color or clarity trumps here. Many super ideal branded cuts are sent to AGS for grading - there's a reason for that. GIA rounds their angles so you're not always sure without further analysis that their cut grade is spot on. In this instance, you've had two other sources verify the cut of the stone.

If in your mind and that of your inlaws the most important factor is the GIA color grade of H, then by all means return it. You are not going to be happy if they're not happy so there's no point in keeping it IMO. That said, the stone is still the stone and I don't think you paid an unfair price based on the AGS cert. We have been told here as well that AGS graded stones - because of the cut quality analysis that AGS does - can and do trade higher. Facts are facts and bias is bias. If you really need a G or better color GIA graded stone, then I would definitely start looking.

It appears to be a beautiful stone and I'm sorry that this didn't work out for you. However, your criteria are different than that of others simply looking for a beautifully cut stone. AGS and the independent appraiser verified that and so did GIA with their triple x grade. At the end of the day, it is the same stone. Two sources called it a G and GIA called it an H. Unfortunately, the source that means the most to you ruins the stone for you.

Best of luck to you - there are many beautiful diamonds out there and I sincerely hope you find the one that makes your heart sing and ticks all the boxes that you need it to. I feel very confident that you will find that stone!
 
I agree with MissGotRocks,

Diamond grading is a subjective process. GIA does it as a majority wins type thing. They have different graders look at it and give their opinion. I believe the majority wins. So in your stone's case there may have been graders who agreed with AGS on the G at GIA, but others that did not. Now AGS's subjective opinion is G. Which is MORE correct? Who knows.

Diamond grading reports set prices. What you have with JA is a contract. The contract said you bought a diamond and it had a lab report from AGS with certain characteristics. And you DO HAVE a diamond with an AGS lab report that says G VVS2. And that's what you bought. Contract fulfilled. And that's what your price was based on. AND THAT HAS NOT CHANGED. Your AGS lab report is still valid.

You did not buy a diamond that had GIA paperwork that says H VVS1. So of course they aren't going to lower the price to match those characteristics. That's not what you contracted them for. If you wanted a GIA G, well... you had the option to buy one. You still do.

So you have a return policy. Whether or not you chose to exercise that option is up to you.

They are doing everything they can. I know you are upset, but what you are asking for is unreasonable. They are abiding by their contract. Now it is up to you to abide by yours: keep it or return it within the stated return policy period.
 
This ^^^
 
To put it very simply, G and H are actually the same thing.
 
GeorgeStevens|1405040048|3710971 said:
To put it very simply, G and H are actually the same thing.
Click to expand...

Not when they command different prices. :nono:
 
Based on which cert? I think that's what he means - it is the same diamond graded differently but two top tier labs. Depends on which cert you go by - she's got both. If you go by the GIA cert, you have a H color, VVS1 stone. If you go by the AGS cert, you have a G color, VVS2 stone. Stones trade differently in price based on color and clarity so which do you value more? In this case, the owner of the stone wants the higher color stone.
 
You had this stone graded by another lab for the peace of mind of your inlaws...?

If it had come back an F would you like it more?

You went down in color and up n clarity, but it's still the same stone. My advice is to wear the diamond, not he paper--or paperS as the case may be. And when the inlaws ask tell 'em whatever they need to hear.
 
Ok, I just read the OP's posts in other threads and now I understand this to be a cultural thing.
 
Just wanted to tell you that I once had a GIA H color hearts and arrows diamond, and later it was graded by AGS when I decided to sell it to upgrade, and it was graded G color by AGS. I have heard this here several times. It pays off when you buy GIA and you get the higher grade from AGS, but the reverse would be disappointing.

I believe color will have the greater impact on the stone's price over the VVS2-VVS1. (Ah, in rereading I see you said the G sells for 8-10% higher.)

I think you were right to discuss pricing with them, because I recall another instance of this happening and the vendor did negotiate on the price of the stone. But this size stone with these specs won't be easy to replace, so I'd be careful before deciding to return it. How much time do you have?
 
Hi Bqnbqn,

Is there a particular reason you got an AGS stone instead of a GIA stone in the first place? Also, is there a reason you bought from James Allen as opposed to White Flash or Brian Gavin? The reason I am asking is because I really like the appeal of a super ideal cut hearts and arrows diamond but have reservations against buying an AGS certified stone because they appear to be more lax in color grading than GIA.

Sorry to hear that you are disappointed with the GIA color grade but either way it looks like a beautiful stone nevertheless.
 
Like I said, I wasn't looking to get a discount from JA when I got it graded by GIA. I just wanted to have a GIA report showing the same specs as I think it is reasonable to obtain one for a diamond at this price. I simply told JA that I was disappointed the GIA grading downgraded the color to H. This is after I got JA's gemologists to give their feedback on the color before making the purchase as I was afraid this might happen after reading about AGS' looser grading on color from various forums. I was assured by them that this is a true G and would get graded by GIA as such at which point I went ahead with the purchase. IMO, if the stone is mid to high G, I think GIA and AGS will both grade as G. However, if it is a low G or high H, then it will go either way. Same goes for clarity. This stone is likely a G-H stone with VVS1-VVS2 clarity. AGS may be a reputable lab and highly regarded by diamond enthusiasts such as folks on PS but the reality is, all SoCal jewelers I visit only price their diamonds based on GIA certification. Even online searches on PS, BN, etc. yield 95% GIA diamonds vs. AGS. Whether it is fair or not, from my own experience, a diamond's purchase price/resale/trade-in value is mostly determined by GIA reports.

There is no doubt the diamond I purchased is a beautifully-cut one. There are many beautifully-cut stones out there at various colors and clarity at corresponding market prices. I just happened to pay for a G VVS2 stone that unfortunately turned out to be something else that's about 8-10% less valuable. To JA's credit, I am welcome to return it so it's not a big deal. Their customer service has been excellent. I just want to share the experience so folks can learn from it. If you value GIA's certification, then make sure the stone you're buying has it :)
 
This might sound crazy, but if you can't find a similar GIA G VVS2, and since diamond grading is subjective, maybe send it back to GIA again for another report and see if you get different results. The cost would be a drop in the bucket compared to the value the diamond would gain if it came back G VVS1/VVS2.
 
If you buy a XXX GIA G VVS2 will you send it to AGS?... :lol:
 
mogster|1405056472|3711188 said:
This might sound crazy, but if you can't find a similar GIA G VVS2, and since diamond grading is subjective, maybe send it back to GIA again for another report and see if you get different results. The cost would be a drop in the bucket compared to the value the diamond would gain if it came back G VVS1/VVS2.
Click to expand...

Sadly, there are those in the trade who will know which of the GIA labs are softer on color and which are softer on clarity. GIA is having problems with consistency due to the large number of labs they now have and also with the extreme numbers of diamonds that they are attempting to grade. It has proven very difficult to train a sufficient number of graders and maintain consistency.

Thus I suspect that Mogster could be correct. Send your diamond to enough of the GIA labs and you will soon find out that you can get variances up or down one grade depending on which lab and which graders in that lab graded your diamond. It is not an exact science.

Many diamond dealers would have asked for a recheck if they disagreed with the result of the initial grading if they felt that the stone should have been graded higher, and often that higher grade will be confirmed on the recheck.

Of course we never hear about those "softer" upgrades...

Wink
 
Send it back. You’re clearly well into the whole ‘mind clean’ issue here and it’s going to bug you, and possibly the inlaws, forever. I’m confident that JA can fix you up with a GIA graded stone that both you and they will adore, and that will have the right pedigree.
 
Just a side thing you know. But sometimes real life happens, things are seen as not so perfect, people get ill or die and mind clean issues take on less importance, maybe not unimportant but there is bigger things in real life. Also when you stick around a subject for years you start to look at it from a different point of view, like the sliders someone mentioned when looking for a diamond, having to give on one thing to gain on another, look at how rare this diamond is albeit maybe as some say not required in the clarity high grading.

Depends on how much money, means of getting it too as when you get older you start to think what all do I want to buy in my life and what am I going to need money for, e.g. house improvements etc. etc. Maybe you have already thought out all these but just thought I would mention it for others too. The one I read here this week where some poster wrote about seeing things on the internet and really liking what they saw and may buy from that without thinking would it be them, would they wear it longterm. Sometimes we get set in our ways for a short period of time a phase of diamonds then move onto something else e.g. camping, children, studying and the first thing is not so important.

I think this is a rare diamond at a great price, but if you want the certificate above the stone ask the vendor to get you that.
I wanted a colorless diamond and wanted an ACA so when I bought I went for an E color because I had read before about this color thing with GIA and AGS so I believe if my diamond is lower it is still colorless, I know I may have paid more that way but was it any more than a GIA F would have been as GIA is more expensive.

Don't leave it too late to make up your mind though, think it through for a few days and make a decision as this type of thing just gets you down if you dwell on it.
 
Wanted to add, think about the size you have too, as unless you are willing to put up more money you may end up with a G VVS2 but at less than half carat maybe more about 2.25 as this size is quite rare because most stones around 2.7 carat I read are cut into poor cut 3 carat stones as lots of people do not really know about or maybe value cut.
 
Wink|1405083756|3711333 said:
mogster|1405056472|3711188 said:
This might sound crazy, but if you can't find a similar GIA G VVS2, and since diamond grading is subjective, maybe send it back to GIA again for another report and see if you get different results. The cost would be a drop in the bucket compared to the value the diamond would gain if it came back G VVS1/VVS2.
Click to expand...

Sadly, there are those in the trade who will know which of the GIA labs are softer on color and which are softer on clarity. GIA is having problems with consistency due to the large number of labs they now have and also with the extreme numbers of diamonds that they are attempting to grade. It has proven very difficult to train a sufficient number of graders and maintain consistency.

Thus I suspect that Mogster could be correct. Send your diamond to enough of the GIA labs and you will soon find out that you can get variances up or down one grade depending on which lab and which graders in that lab graded your diamond. It is not an exact science.

Many diamond dealers would have asked for a recheck if they disagreed with the result of the initial grading if they felt that the stone should have been graded higher, and often that higher grade will be confirmed on the recheck.

Of course we never hear about those "softer" upgrades...
Wink
Click to expand...


Can the public ask for a recheck if they feel the result is not what an independent appraiser thought it would be? Or is it just diamond dealers who can request this???
 
Just noticed a bit of good news for you, maybe you have seen it. Remember the feather you were unsure of, well GIA think it is more minor than the pinpoint as they have listed it second on the plot description key. The first listed is the worst and it goes down from there is descending order. AGS had it the other way with the feather as most prominent inclusion.
 
What I was going to write for you to ask yourself (which is why I was here and got side tracked looking at the diamond plot) was:

If you had come into a diamond dealers/jeweller/online and seen this 2.69 H VVS1 when you were going to buy would it have been
a consideration for you? Do you still feel the same way or has your experience changed things? Only you can answer what is right for you at this time unless you want to take other peoples opinions or diamond sellers opinions on as your own. And not change your mind or dwell on it again.
 
I've heard about GIA rounding, but am a little surprised by the differences in other measurements, as determined by the two labs.

GIA: 8.87 - 8.89 x 5.55 mm / AGS: 8.87 - 8.90 x 5.56 mm

Depth GIA: 62.5 % / Depth AGS: 62.6 %

Table GIA: 55 % / Table AGS: 55.7 %

Crown angle GIA: 35.5 % / Crown angle AGS: 35.4 %

Crown height GIA: 16.0 % / Crown height AGS: 15.8 %

Pavilion Angle GIA: 40.8 / Pavilion Angle AGS: 40.9

Pavilion Depth GIA: 43.0 % / Pavilion Depth AGS: 43.3 %

Girdle GIA: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted, 3.5% / Girdle AGS: Thin to Slightly Thick

Calculated HCA using GIA measurements: 2.6 / Calculated HCA using AGS measurements: 3.0
 
Can we get a link to this stone on the JA website? I can't find the diamond being discussed.

Usually, JA keeps the full webpage up, for a long time, even after the diamond is sold.
 
If you want a G VVS2 diamond keep the AGS report and burn the GIA. If you want a H VVS1 keep the GIA report and burn the AGS.

What's the problem? :lol:
 
Pyramid|1405091542|3711383 said:
Can the public ask for a recheck if they feel the result is not what an independent appraiser thought it would be? Or is it just diamond dealers who can request this???
Click to expand...
I am sure a consumer has the same ability to request a recheck as a trade person. And it might be worth a try. However, this size most probably would have been checked by multiple graders including a senior level one. But as has been suggested, GIA has been dealing with some growing pains so it may be that grading is more erratic at this particular time. Hard to say how that might affect their recheck process. They may be inclined to rubber stamp the original work because of their workload. It might be good to send it to a different branch, just so the graders don't feel pressure to agree with a close colleague.

Having said all that, the one grade differences we are seeing in this case are not uncommon and, as we see here, they go in both directions. The OP was aware of this before having the stone submitted to GIA. It is unfair to somehow "blame" the JA gemologists for their assessment. Who says they are not right?
 
teobdl|1405103566|3711472 said:
If you want a G VVS2 diamond keep the AGS report and burn the GIA. If you want a H VVS1 keep the GIA report and burn the AGS.

What's the problem? :lol:
Click to expand...
No need to burn either. They are both valid reports. If the stone is ever put up for resale, one report may be preferred by the prospective buyer than the other. A customer wanting the highest pedigree for cut quality will prefer the AGS report.

Also, I notice that both report numbers are now inscribed on the girdle.
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Jewelry Blog
PriceScope-Concierge-Ad
Find prime cuts.
Top