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1.7ct F or 2ct H

T

tomte

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 7, 2019
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11
Hi, another question, I am hoping to get some opinions on.

I cant really see the diamonds in person, since I am looking at an online purchase.

For a PT Solitaire setting, would one rather go for an 1.7ct F color (IF) or 2ct H color (VVS2), assuming all other factors are the same: Faint or no Fluorescence, price, excellent cut and excellent polish, ...

We are talking here about a 1mm difference in diameter, but I am not sure how this difference is looking on the ring, and how the color difference and other specs above would make a difference on a PT setting?

Thanks so much.
 
There isn’t enough informational provided for us to be able to advice you which one is a better choice. Please post the full GIA reports to get some feedback.

You also mentioned that you are shopping online. Which sites are you looking at? What is your budget? We can help you find other options for consideration as well.
 
tomte said:
Hi, another question, I am hoping to get some opinions on.

I cant really see the diamonds in person, since I am looking at an online purchase.

For a PT Solitaire setting, would one rather go for an 1.7ct F color (IF) or 2ct H color (VVS2), assuming all other factors are the same: Faint or no Fluorescence, price, excellent cut and excellent polish, ...

We are talking here about a 1mm difference in diameter, but I am not sure how this difference is looking on the ring, and how the color difference and other specs above would make a difference on a PT setting?

Thanks so much.
Click to expand...

You might be able o to notice a tiny bit of tint in the H from the side but it is still a nice white. If size is what you’re after, the size difference is more like 0.4 mm, not 1 mm, in diameter. It’s still a noticeable difference, but not a screaming difference, if you know what I mean :wink2:

The IF and VVS clarity can both be considered overkill. I would pick the one with the better cut, if those were my only two choices. GIA XXX is not enough to determine if it’s a good cut!!! If both had an ideal cut, I’d likely go with the H as VVS is slightly better value than IF and it’s bigger.
 
Even if you're going to purchase a diamond online, I still recommend going to a local jeweler to determine what color grade(s) you prefer. Ask the jeweler to show you a variety of diamonds with similar carat weight to the size you're looking to purchase (1.5-2 carat) in colors ranging from D to J. We are not you, so we have no way of knowing whether H would be colorless enough for you personally. Some people can see tint in an H and are bothered by it, some people can see tint in an H and are not bothered by it (and may actually prefer it), and still others cannot tell the difference between a D and a J. It all comes down to personal color sensitivity and preferences.

If you post on this site asking what is better, smaller size/higher color or larger size/lower color, you'll get answers on both sides. That's because these are not facts, but opinions.

I will 2nd what @kmoro said regarding clarity. I would not pay the ridiculous premium for IF clarity. VVS2 can be okay, especially since this is a larger diamond, but I think it would be better to save the money and look for a decent VS1 or VS2 in whatever color you prefer. And of course, make sure they are well cut. :)
 
A lot will depend on your colour sensitivity, I’m not particularly colour sensitive, so an H or I is fine for me, but for others, it too tinted.

Either will be fine in Platinum, but you really need to see stones side by side and in real life to see what you’re comfortable with.
 
This tool tends to overestimate the sizes of stones (just a little) but should show you the relative difference between a 1.7 and a 2 carat. Do you
think the size difference is worth it? These are assumed to be a depth of 60.3%.
Capture.PNG
 
Thanks a lot for all the replies. Please allow me two more questions:
1. Considering the 1.7ct ideal cut, E-F color, VS1-IF, how important is Fluorescence? I have seen stones with faint to none for a premium, and stones with a very strong Fluorescence which come at a discount. I can only judge by the online images, will Fluorescence make the stones appear milky or cloudy?
2. For the same stones mentioned in 1, how important is Table? They all have a depth of around 62%, but Table seems to vary from 56-59%, does that matter at all?

Thanks again
 
tomte said:
Thanks a lot for all the replies. Please allow me two more questions:
1. Considering the 1.7ct ideal cut, E-F color, VS1-IF, how important is Fluorescence? I have seen stones with faint to none for a premium, and stones with a very strong Fluorescence which come at a discount. I can only judge by the online images, will Fluorescence make the stones appear milky or cloudy?
2. For the same stones mentioned in 1, how important is Table? They all have a depth of around 62%, but Table seems to vary from 56-59%, does that matter at all?

Thanks again
Click to expand...

It's really hard to answer questions like this, as they're very vague. Do you have any diamonds that you're interested in? It's easier for people on this site to give advice if you have questions about a specific stone.

Regarding fluorescence, strong blue and very strong blue may cause negative effects in high-colored diamonds. It's not a guarantee that such stones will be milky or exhibit reduced transparency in sunlight, but it's a possibility. And it is impossible to know whether or not the stone will be milky from an online video alone, as studio lighting does not have enough UV light to excite the fluor in diamonds. The only way to know when ordering a SB or VSB stone online is to take it to a jewelry store once you receive the diamond and compare it to a stone without fluorescence in bright sunlight.

Are you looking for recommendations for well-cut stones in the size range you're interested in? If so, this one looks nice. :)
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-1.81-carat-f-vs2-yd5301612
 
tomte said:
Thanks a lot for all the replies. Please allow me two more questions:
1. Considering the 1.7ct ideal cut, E-F color, VS1-IF, how important is Fluorescence? I have seen stones with faint to none for a premium, and stones with a very strong Fluorescence which come at a discount. I can only judge by the online images, will Fluorescence make the stones appear milky or cloudy?
2. For the same stones mentioned in 1, how important is Table? They all have a depth of around 62%, but Table seems to vary from 56-59%, does that matter at all?

Thanks again
Click to expand...

Fluorescence often makes lower colour stones look whiter. In very rare occasions it can affect transparency - only way to know is to have someone look at it.

If you would like an opinion on the cut of your diamond choices, we need to know a lot more than depth and table percentage. Generally, a smaller table will mean other crown facets are larger and so there is more fire, where a larger table might mean more white light return ... but it’s all in how the angles work together.
 
Thanks again for the replies.

E.g. this stone https://www.brilliantearth.com/loos...tps://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a says under GIA very strong blue fluorescence whereas all other parameters look excellent. It's not possible to tell if there is any effect from the fluorescence? It says Origin is Canada and that should reduce the possibility that it is milky or cloudy?
Or should I spend more on a faint-none fluorescence?
 
tomte said:
Thanks again for the replies.

E.g. this stone https://www.brilliantearth.com/loose-diamonds/view_detail/7286957/?utm_expid=1332916-416.WccHUejiTf2m7_wsT0S2Ug.0&utm_referrer=https://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a says under GIA very strong blue fluorescence whereas all other parameters look excellent. It's not possible to tell if there is any effect from the fluorescence? It says Origin is Canada and that should reduce the possibility that it is milky or cloudy?
Or should I spend more on a faint-none fluorescence?
Click to expand...

A few things:
1.) That diamond is poorly cut. The pavilion is overly deep for the crown angle. This diamond would exhibit significant light leakage. Definitely pass on that one.

2.) Again, there is NO WAY to tell if the VSB fluor would negatively affect this stone just by looking at a video. You need to see the stone in person in direct sunlight. Any time you order a SB or VSB fluor stone, you should be prepared to return it if the stone is milky. Not the end of the world, as every online retailer these days has a good return policy, but it's just something that you need to consider.

3.) Brilliant Earth is overpriced. Their entire marketing scheme is based on their claim that the diamonds they sell are "more ethical," whatever that means. However, they don't really have any proof to back up that claim. When you're buying a mined diamond, you should accept the environmental and/or social repercussions that come with mining of precious minerals. Canadian diamonds come with the baggage of extensive and perhaps irreparable environmental damage to fragile arctic and sub-arctic ecosystems. Buying a mined diamond is no different than the mining of tantalum, tungsten, and copper that goes into all of your electronic devices. Or the questionable labor practices that go into textile/clothing manufacturing. As a first world citizen, you need to accept that your lifestyle as you know it is supported by the exploitation of both the population and natural resources of the third world. But if a nice "Our diamonds are SUPER conflict free!!!" ad campaign helps you sleep at night, then by all means, overpay for an "ethical" diamond. ;)
 
TreeScientist said:
A few things:
1.) That diamond is poorly cut. The pavilion is overly deep for the crown angle. This diamond would exhibit significant light leakage. Definitely pass on that one.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for your advice. They advertise it as "Super ideal cut" - can you specify what I should pay attention to? What depth, table, etc should I be looking for to make it ideal? Also the GIA says that the cut is "excellent" so I am confused. (I am a little bit OCD/perfectionist). Regarding Fluorescence, I got the point and will be looking for faint-none.

3.) Brilliant Earth is overpriced. Their entire marketing scheme is based on their claim that the diamonds they sell are "more ethical," whatever that means. H...
Click to expand...
I am not stuck on that shop in particular at all, I just liked one or two of the PT Solitaire settings, but I am sure others have similar. I also looked a little at James Allen and Blue Nile, but didn't see much price difference. Would I pay for similar stone as posted above significantly less elsewhere?


Here are other choices (sorry from the same shop, just looking for advise on the best cut):
1. https://www.brilliantearth.com/loos...tps://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a

2. https://www.brilliantearth.com/loos...tps://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a

3. https://www.brilliantearth.com/loos...tps://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a

4. https://www.brilliantearth.com/loos...tps://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a

5. https://www.brilliantearth.com/loos...tps://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a

6. https://www.brilliantearth.com/loos...tps://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a

7. https://www.brilliantearth.com/loos...tps://www.brilliantearth.com/shop/cart/?abv=a
 
Honestly, none of those are very well cut either. #2 looks somewhat okay, but it is a bit shallow and may have obstruction at close viewing distances. Best to have a slightly higher pavilion with a 34 crown angle.

I still think the F/VS2 I posted above would be a great option, but if you're really insistent on VS1 clarity or above, then this 1.71 carat E/VS1 would also be an excellent choice. Cheaper here:
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1.71-ct-E-VS1-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42939834?

But better quality video here:
https://www.fourmine.com/shop/diamond/1316788054

Crown and pavilion angles are spot-on for a GIA diamond, exhibits a nice, dark arrow pattern in the video, and there are no visible inclusions under the table even in the 20X video.
 
As for guidelines, a general set of numbers to help you sort through GIA diamonds are as follows:

Depth: 60.5-62.0 (depths up to 62.5-62.6% can be okay as long as the crown and pavilion angles are complementary. It usually just means you're losing a bit of face-up size to a slightly-thick girdle).
Table: 54-57% (58% can be okay in some cases)
Crown angle (CA): 34.0-35.0 (35.5 and even 36.0 can be okay with 40.6 PA in certain cases. Needs to be cut very tightly though).
Pavilion Angle (PA): 40.6-41.0 (40.6 works best with 34.5-35.5 CA, 40.8 with 34.0-35.0, and 41.0 with 34.0-34.5).
Star: 45-55% generally works
LGH: 75 or 80% can both work depending on the other angles

Hope that helps. :)
 
Tomte, I’m glad tree scientist posted these stats for you. In a few words, as the crown angle increases, the pavilion angle decreases, for the best light return. A poorly cut D flawless won’t be sparkly. Rare, but not very sparkly.

Happy hunting.
 
The 2nd option looks okay, but once again, it is overpriced on Brilliant Earth. Same diamond here for over $1k cheaper:
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1.72-ct-F-VS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42939701?

My concern with this diamond is the knot right on the edge of the girdle. Knots are crystals that reach the surface. Any pressure applied to a knot may cause it to pop out. Then you are left with a cavity or a chip. This knot is fairly small, so it may not be of concern at all, but this is something that I would want to be inspected by a qualified, independent gemologist after you receive the diamond to ensure that it is not a durability issue. My personal opinion on knots is that it's really never worth it to take a risk. Plenty of other diamonds out there without questionable inclusions. But others may have different risk tolerances.

Again, is there a reason you're not considering this diamond?
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-1.81-carat-f-vs2-

ETA: I just saw that the Yadav diamond is the same as diamond #3 on Brilliant Earth, it's just that Brilliant Earth doesn't have a video. Seeing as they're the same price on both sites, I would request an IdealScope or ASET for this diamond from Yadav. Not sure if Brilliant Earth provides these images, but you could always ask. :)
 
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tomte said:
I followed your advise Treetrader and requested those images. I feel I learn a little every day here, thanks. Awesome forum.

I found this one very interesting/sparkly in the video, and it should be a good cut. is all the black coming from the dark video background, or the medium fluorescence?
https://www.brilliantearth.com/loose-diamonds/view_detail/7374914/?abv=a&utm_expid=1332916-418.0iCAbfElSgCYO8OpGkXFRg.1&utm_referrer=https://www.brilliantearth.com/super-ideal-diamonds-search/
Click to expand...
All the black is coming from the contrast in the arrows. Stones that are very well cut will show lots of contrast. Some ppl love that but others don't like it as much. It's alsoore obvious is that video bc of the white background.
 
TreeScientist said:
The 2nd option looks okay, but once again, it is overpriced on Brilliant Earth. Same diamond here for over $1k cheaper:
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/1.72-ct-F-VS2-Excellent-Cut-Round-Diamond/D42939701?

My concern with this diamond is the knot right on the edge of the girdle. Knots are crystals that reach the surface. Any pressure applied to a knot may cause it to pop out. Then you are left with a cavity or a chip. This knot is fairly small, so it may not be of concern at all, but this is something that I would want to be inspected by a qualified, independent gemologist after you receive the diamond to ensure that it is not a durability issue. My personal opinion on knots is that it's really never worth it to take a risk. Plenty of other diamonds out there without questionable inclusions. But others may have different risk tolerances.

Again, is there a reason you're not considering this diamond?
https://www.yadavjewelry.com/diamond/round-diamond-1.81-carat-f-vs2-

ETA: I just saw that the Yadav diamond is the same as diamond #3 on Brilliant Earth, it's just that Brilliant Earth doesn't have a video. Seeing as they're the same price on both sites, I would request an IdealScope or ASET for this diamond from Yadav. Not sure if Brilliant Earth provides these images, but you could always ask. :)
Click to expand...
I think the 1.8 is lovely. I would request ASET/IS for it.
 
kmoro said:
Fluorescence often makes lower colour stones look whiter. In very rare occasions it can affect transparency - only way to know is to have someone look at it.
Click to expand...

Tight on time today so cant respond in full detail. However, we need to be very careful when we say fluor makes a stone more white.

First, this effect only happens when atoms get excited. You need a strong enough UV source to create the excitement. This isn't a typical light source you encounter frequently. Think black lights or strong sunlight.

Even when excited and fluorescencing the color difference is marginal at best. Maybe half a color grade which is barely detectable to most people.

Which gets me back to this. I don't have an issue with fluor as long as there are NO clarity issues. For your own protection, you have to proceed like it could be until proven otherwise.

One thing is certain, stones with medium+ levels enjoy a price discount. So if you are getting a stone with fluor make sure you are also obtaining a discount.

Lastly as others pointed out, cut is critical in the selection process. My preference is an ideal cut F VS2 as large as you can reasonably afford. That's neither of your original choices but IMO offers a sweet spot of color, size, clarity and fire/sparkle.
 
tyty333 said:
This tool tends to overestimate the sizes of stones (just a little) but should show you the relative difference between a 1.7 and a 2 carat. Do you
think the size difference is worth it? These are assumed to be a depth of 60.3%.
Capture.PNG
Click to expand...

Where do I find this software tool?
 
sledge said:
Tight on time today so cant respond in full detail. However, we need to be very careful when we say fluor makes a stone more white.

First, this effect only happens when atoms get excited. You need a strong enough UV source to create the excitement. This isn't a typical light source you encounter frequently. Think black lights or strong sunlight.

Even when excited and fluorescencing the color difference is marginal at best. Maybe half a color grade which is barely detectable to most people.

Which gets me back to this. I don't have an issue with fluor as long as there are NO clarity issues. For your own protection, you have to proceed like it could be until proven otherwise.

One thing is certain, stones with medium+ levels enjoy a price discount. So if you are getting a stone with fluor make sure you are also obtaining a discount.

Lastly as others pointed out, cut is critical in the selection process. My preference is an ideal cut F VS2 as large as you can reasonably afford. That's neither of your original choices but IMO offers a sweet spot of color, size, clarity and fire/sparkle.
Click to expand...


@sledge

My comments are based on this article https://www.diamonds.net/News/NewsI...nce+Bad+News?+Not+Necessarily,+Says+GIA+Study, where stones were tested in the following lighting conditions:
• A GEM DiamondLite in a darkened room, to simulate laboratory color grading;
• An overhead desk lamp in a lighted room, as in a bourse;
• An overhead desk lamp in a darkened room, as might be used in an office;
• Ceiling-mounted room lighting, similar to retail conditions;
• A window with indirect sunlight in New York.

I have noticed that in all articles that I’ve read that mention ‘whitening effect’ (my lazy terminology), none except one mention that the effect is in a strong UV environment. I think it “makes sense” that they mean in a UV environment, but I note that they don’t. The only site that I could find that does say this is Brian Gavin. I would expect this to be an important point, but the article authors don’t seem to agree.

I’ve reread the article and I don’t see them mention anything about viewing in a strong UV environment, yet they still conclude fluorescence can make diamonds appear whiter under certain rather inconclusive conditions. They mention viewing in sunlight, which would qualify, but still don’t make a direct link between the strong UV and ‘whitening effect.’ Using that common sense again, it makes no sense for fluorescence to have any effect unless it’s in a strong UV environment .. so I intuitively agree with you and Brian Gavin. However, the study linked above doesn’t mention it. I did not want to share what I did not read there. *shrug*
 
tomte said:
I followed your advise Treetrader and requested those images. I feel I learn a little every day here, thanks. Awesome forum.

I found this one very interesting/sparkly in the video, and it should be a good cut. is all the black coming from the dark video background, or the medium fluorescence?
https://www.brilliantearth.com/loose-diamonds/view_detail/7374914/?abv=a&utm_expid=1332916-418.0iCAbfElSgCYO8OpGkXFRg.1&utm_referrer=https://www.brilliantearth.com/super-ideal-diamonds-search/
Click to expand...

Still waiting for the images regarding the scope for the 1.8ct, I was told I hear back from the shop.

Regarding the above link, it does show a lot of contrast as lovedogs pointed out, and I sort of like it. I read that Russian diamonds are known for this sharp contrasts. Would there anything be wrong with this particular stone why I shouldn't go with that? (alternative to the 1.8ct above, these stones seem to sell pretty fast). Could someone look at the specs and the video?
 
tomte said:
Still waiting for the images regarding the scope for the 1.8ct, I was told I hear back from the shop.

Regarding the above link, it does show a lot of contrast as lovedogs pointed out, and I sort of like it. I read that Russian diamonds are known for this sharp contrasts. Would there anything be wrong with this particular stone why I shouldn't go with that? (alternative to the 1.8ct above, these stones seem to sell pretty fast). Could someone look at the specs and the video?
Click to expand...

The stone is not well cut. There's a lot of obstruction around the arrows (look at 12, 6, and 9 o'clock), and it is not symmetrical. Uneven obstruction extending about halfway or more from the center to the edge of the table usually means there's something F-ed up with the pavilion mains. If you were to get a hearts image for this stone, I can almost guarantee that it would not be pretty.

This much obstruction under the table can result in the center of the diamond looking dark at close viewing angles. For the difference between clustering (okay) and significant obstruction (not-okay), see this article. Specifically, read the section titled "What does heavy obstruction look like?":
https://niceice.com/diamond-grading-101/obstruction-light-diamonds/

Looking forward to seeing the images for the 1.8 F/VS2. I think that diamond is a winner. :)

Also, where did you read that Russian diamonds are known for their sharp contrasts? Gosh, I swear they'll think up anything to market a product to consumers.
 
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tomte said:
Still waiting for the images regarding the scope for the 1.8ct, I was told I hear back from the shop.

Regarding the above link, it does show a lot of contrast as lovedogs pointed out, and I sort of like it. I read that Russian diamonds are known for this sharp contrasts. Would there anything be wrong with this particular stone why I shouldn't go with that? (alternative to the 1.8ct above, these stones seem to sell pretty fast). Could someone look at the specs and the video?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't get that stone without ASET/IS. And definitely not true about Russian stones. I don't even know what that means or how that would be possible
 
 
Whiteflash ACA and High Performance Diamonds are the most recommended sellers on PS. They have great future upgrade policies. Good luck shopping!
 
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