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0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal??

Discussion in 'Laboratory-Grown Diamonds /Man-Made Diamonds (MMD)' started by Nelson, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Nov 29, 2010
    Hello,

    I recently purchased a 0.59 ct round created diamond for just over $3000. It came with an EGL certificate, but no cut grade. I thought its cut was very close to an 'ideal' cut, but when I took it to a gemologist he said it was no where near ideal and that I had paid way too much. The specs for the diamond are below. When I enter them into the HCA (https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca/) I get a score of 1.5, which I thought meant the cut was very near ideal. Did I pay way too much for this diamond? How bad is the cut compared to an 'ideal' cut?

    Thanks!

    Weight: 0.59 carat
    Dimensions: 5.55x5.46x3.19mm
    Color: Light Blue
    Clarity: VVS1
    Depth: 57.9%
    Table: 59.0%
    Crown: 12.9% 32.9°
    Pavilion: 42.1% 40.3°
    Polish: Good
    Symmetry: Good
    Girdle: Medium
    Culet: None
    Fluorescence: None
    Color Origin: As-grown
     
  2. Amys Bling
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Amys Bling » Nov 29, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I really don't know anything about colored diamonds...I do know that they are typically cut for color as opposed to fire--scintiliation- sparkle.

    You are right- HCA
    Light Return Very Good
    Fire Excellent
    Scintillation Excellent
    Spread
    or diameter for weight Excellent
    Total Visual Performance 1.5 - Excellent
    within TIC range


    As for pricing, I do not know the pricing guidelines for colored diamonds.
     
  3. denverappraiser
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by denverappraiser » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    With fancy colors, the cutting is done to maximize the color, not just the brilliance. The proportions for 'ideal' cutting and those that are favored by the HCA are about maximizing the light return in a colorless stone. I haven't seen the stone here and I'm not surprised that it does poorly on the HCA, most fancy colors do, but I would NOT take this as evidence that it's poorly cut.
     
  4. Paul-Antwerp
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Paul-Antwerp » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Do I understand you correctly that you are talking about a synthetic diamond?
     
  5. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Yes, it's a created (synthetic) diamond made by AOTC in Russia. The colour is Light Blue (essentially colourless), so that is why I am trying to evaluate the cut just the same as if it were a natural, colourless diamond. Assuming it was colourless, can someone tell me how good the cut is? Thanx
     
  6. Paul-Antwerp
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Paul-Antwerp » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I do not understand.

    Why did you want to buy a synthetic diamond? I can imagine that you wanted the blue colour, but if you state that it is so light that it is essentially colourless, I simply do not understand.

    If you really wanted a well-cut colourless diamond, a natural diamond would probably have cost you less than this synthetic with questionable colour.

    Live long,
     
  7. Amethyste
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Amethyste » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I don't understand what you are not understanding, Paul. :)

    I think the OP wanted a light blue colored diamond and to get this in a natural state would have cost him $$$$$$ ? so he went the man made route. I don't think there is anything wrong by getting a man made DIAMOND. I think in all honesty it is a wise choice.

    The cut looks really good - but as other pointed out, it might not have been cut to enhance the color. Since the cut is nice and the results give the diamond a wonderful brilliance, the light blue color is most likely muted because of that factor.

    *I* think ( I am no expert ) that is you wanted to see more blue - this diamond's cut is not enhancing it's color and maybe the money you spent for it might be on the high end. But the cut is excellent and if you see some blue ( you might want to check different lighting scenarios to make sure you do see blue ) and like the diamond - it's up to you to determine if you are comfortable with the price tag.

    Good luck to you!
     
  8. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Why? I'm a fisheries biologist and my work involves stopping mining developments, so I do not want to support the diamond mining industry. I know you are right I could have done better with a mined stone, but I would have felt very guilty about it.
     
  9. AprilBaby
    Ideal_Rock

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    by AprilBaby » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    It sounds really pretty, could you post a picture?
     
  10. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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  11. Paul-Antwerp
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Paul-Antwerp » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I am sorry, I did not mean to offend you or your choice in any way.

    I respect that you wanted a man-made diamond. Since you mention that it looks basically colorless (or did I misunderstand), the price seems very high to me, but I have to admit that I have no idea what the current price of a synthetic light blue is.

    The crux of the matter for me is whether the stone shows a blue color and whether you wanted that.

    Live long,
     
  12. Amethyste
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Amethyste » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I think it looks lovely - but as I said, I think the diamond was cut for brilliance rather than for enhancing its color.
    it's hard to give advice other than stating the obvious - but in the end you are the one deciding what you are comfortable with.

    Since you said you wanted to go with a man-made diamond, you have less options, unfortunately.

    Does it have to be blue? look at this RED beauty!!!! THAT IS STUNNING!

    http://d.neadiamonds.com/lab-created-diamonds/PB04
     
  13. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I am just wondering, hypothetically, if this was a colourless, minded diamond, based on the specs above, how good is the cut? I wanted an ideal cut, but I don't know how close to that the cut actually is. Thanx
     
  14. megeve
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by megeve » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Are we allowed to discuss synthetic diamonds now? :confused:
     
  15. slg47
    Ideal_Rock

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    by slg47 » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I think we can discuss manmade diamonds but not sims (this is my understanding?) or should all manmade diamond discussions go in the lab grown diamonds forum?

    in any case, since it scores well on HCA it is a very good cut for a colorless diamond. colored diamonds may be cut different to enhance the color
     
  16. Amethyste
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Amethyste » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Are you a trade person as it is said in your postings?

    i am copying what was posted by another poster about your diamond:

    You are right- HCA
    Light Return Very Good
    Fire Excellent
    Scintillation Excellent
    Spread
    or diameter for weight Excellent
    Total Visual Performance 1.5 - Excellent
    within TIC range

    sounds sweet!
     
  17. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    No, I'm not a trade person. I'm just a Joe Blow customer who bought this diamond online and when I took it to my local jeweller to have it set in an engagement ring they told me the cut was no good. I'm trying to figure out why...
     
  18. Amethyste
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Amethyste » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Nelson, my appologies, for some reasons, your postings has the "trade person" tag in them... I guess I am seeing double... :razz:

    Well, did you tell the jeweler that it was a man made diamond? if so, perhaps - he/she has a problem with that and told you that it wasn't cut right. since it scores well on HCA it is a very good cut for a colorless diamond - yours is a light blue - which borders colorless since the cut is really good, it will not show as blue as if the cut was made to enhance its color. I don't know how else i can explain it any better...
     
  19. LisaRN
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by LisaRN » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    All in all do you love the diamond? If so it is a great deal. Please do not underestimate that the value of the diamond is what it is worth in YOUR eyes.
     
  20. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    The gemologist took me to the Wikipedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_cut#Proportions and said because the diamond didn't fit into the ranges listed in the table it wasn't an ideal cut. Is this true?
     
  21. Paul-Antwerp
    Ideal_Rock
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    by Paul-Antwerp » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Ideal is a word in this industry that has almost lost its value, simply because so many industry-participants are using various definitions.

    In the case of this stone, it is indeed far from ideal in most people's books. Granted, it gets a great HCA-score, but I wonder how this is possible. Garry Holloway in the creation of the HCA generally follows the rule that a shallower pavilion angle should be offset by a steeper crown angle, which is not the case in your stone. Hence the high HCA-score most probably is due to the higher spread of your stone.

    If you want to limit of 'ideal' to a great HCA-score without checking further and without accepting that the HCA is a rejection-tool and not a selection-tool, that is fine, but essentially the posters claiming that the stone is sweet or very good are incorrect.

    Then again, you having essentially a fancy colour stone, the usual rules of 'ideal' do not apply. If this stone is well cut, it should be cut to enhance the perceived colour.

    Then again, (yes, one more) in a synthetic diamond, the true colour might look unnatural, which the cutter would like to avoid. Thus, he may have chosen proportions to decrease the colour to a level, that looks more natural.

    Sorry, this all sounds very confusing. Most important is that you understand your own priorities. If you want an ideal cut diamond, you should start by looking at colourless diamonds. An important manufacturer of synthetic diamonds today announced that they are producing them, and I suppose that they are not the only ones.
    If you want a fancy colour diamond, you need to accept that the cut is never ideal according to the colourless system. A combination of both is highly unlikely, if not impossible.

    Live long,
     
  22. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Well thanks, I guess it is pretty far from 'ideal' and that is disappointing, but it was the best I could do. I never wanted a coloured stone and chose the Light Blue because the colour is virtually undetectable. Colourless created diamonds are very hard to find and I needed a diamond by Christmas so I went with this one. Apollo had a G coloured diamond, but they sold it before I could buy it. I don't understand why the manufacturers of the stone I did buy wouldn't have these Light Blue diamonds cut more 'ideal'. The only reason I can think of is that due to their small sized company, they cannot afford to pay for the best diamond cutters available in Belgium. I guess I should have discussed the cut on this forum before purchasing this diamond, but I have been looking for a diamond for a very long time and basically ran out of time. I needed it before Christmas. Would looking at my diamond under an ideal scope tell me just how bad the cut actually is? Thanx
     
  23. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Nov 30, 2010
    How good's the cut? D=57.9% T=59.0% C=32.9° P=40.3° (round b

    Hi, I've bought a diamond with the above specs and I'm looking for opinions on how good the cut is. HCA says the cut is great (1.5 - Excellent within TIC range), but I understand it's not a traditional 'ideal cut'. Can anyone tell me what the cut grade on this diamond would be? The certificate it came with does not grade the cut. Thanx
     
  24. Garry H (Cut Nut)
    Super_Ideal_Rock
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Nov 30, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    An interesting case.
    This stone is nearing the shallow side of HCA <2.0. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
    At this link which is the warning shown on the results page you can see the stones proportions is not recomended for a ring, but is for pendants and earrings.
    But in this case where making a pale blue stone appear darker I think these proportions might work rather well.
    Unfortunately I do not have the right blue spectrum to try it in DiamCalc.
     
  25. Nelson
    Rough_Rock

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    by Nelson » Dec 1, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Thanks for the reply. I just found out about the ideal-scope today! It seems like a very useful little tool. Do you know of any jewelers in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada who might have one? I'm trying to decide whether or not to go ahead and set this stone in a ring.
     
  26. EEFranklin
    Shiny_Rock
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    by EEFranklin » Dec 1, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I just saw this thread and thought I should add my two cents. Nelson, I'll reply to you privately too, but I wanted to post a couple points for the thread.

    Mined colored diamonds commonly have faint and unevenly distributed color, so cutters alter proportions and angles to make the color appear more saturated or more evenly distributed. Synthetic colored diamonds typically have very even color distribution and plenty of saturation, so we don't use those cutting tricks.

    We use one of the finest cutters in Antwerp to cut our diamonds. Each stone is independently evaluated by the cutter, with the result based on a balance of color, cut, clarity, shape and yield. We pay the cutters based on the weight of the rough diamond, not on how poor or ideal the result is. If our intent was to save money, we would have them cut in India or China instead.

    The definition of an 'ideal' cut, as Paul noted, varies a good amount for colorless diamonds, but in general measures white light return, which isn't as important of a factor in colored diamonds. Our blues are all well made, but are not manufactured solely against 'ideal' white cut charts. The tone and saturation of the blue color is a higher priority for most people than cut proportions. In your circumstance, I know we discussed more 'ideal' cut blues, but they were more saturated, so you chose this light blue.

    Ultimately, if you don't want this diamond, we will gladly take it back, even after Christmas. Do keep in mind that what matters more than a couple angle percentage points is if she likes it or not. If she doesn't, you could return it or exchange it for another diamond. Since our diamonds include a lifetime trade-up, so you also could swap it for an ideal cut white as soon as we have one available.

    We do keep our company very streamlined and efficient, so while our retail operations are not large, AOTC Group is the largest vendor of synthetic diamonds for jewelry purposes. D.NEA is AOTC's retail brand name.
     
  27. ChunkyCushionLover
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    by ChunkyCushionLover » Dec 1, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Nelson,

    I've been reading this thread and I think the choice depends on your goal for the purchase:

    Did you want a Blue Diamond or Colorless?
    Is your primary goal white light return (brightness, scintillation, fire) or saturation of color?

    The argument that a mined colorless diamond with 'ideal' proportions would be significantly cheaper seems to not be relevant as your environmental concerns confine your choices to lab created diamonds.

    The question really is would you rather have a colorless diamond cut closer to Tolkowsky Ideal proportions for light return, or keep a light fancy colored stone which has proportions that are more likely to help enhance the saturation of blue rather than optimally return white light.

    CCL
     
  28. lemontte
    Rough_Rock

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    by lemontte » Dec 4, 2010
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Hi Nelson,

    Personally I feel that the "ideal cut" for diamonds is just like solutions to a math problem. There are many ways to achieve the same result hence many different definitions of "ideal" cut. I am no expert but the wiki page that was shown to you may not be exhaustive of the many possibilities available. I have purchased a diamond from D.nea before and it was beautiful. I have faith that their diamonds are cut with quality in mind.

    I believe that a good (cut) diamond should have a lot of brillance/fire aka light return (in cases of coloured diamonds, those specs have to be balanced with optimizing for colour); as long as that is achieved, proportions are just numbers. (Of cos having a good spread is a PLUS!) The ideal scope will definitely help you figure out how much light the diamond is reflecting. I own one and I find it very helpful to determine how bright the diamond is. You still have 2 weeks, howabout buying one and use it on your diamond to judge for yourself? I am not saying this replaces professional advice. However, I think you just need some assurance and a peace of mind.

    I can sense you are trying to get the best and most perfect stone. I understand timing is everything, but maybe you have to be really sure before continuing, even postponing the due date? My concern is the recommendation mentioned above of not setting the stone into a ring.

    All the best!!!
     
  29. pkanawha
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    by pkanawha » Jul 14, 2011
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    Never mind the cut. In my opinion you paid way too much for the diamond because it's synthetic. A hundred years ago synthetic rubies and sapphires were difficult to create. They were worth as much as "real" stones. As the technology improved, the cost dropped to nearly nothing. Now they go for pennies per carat. In fact they now make huge slabs of clear sapphire and make them into watch crystals that go for a few dollars apiece. And then most of the cost goes not for the sapphire, but for the cutting, machining, polishing, etc. since after all sapphire is very hard. This is not an investment and its value will only drop as the science of creating diamonds improves. Better to buy a synthetic sapphire for your ring for only a few dollars. It will be attractive, inexpensive, and won't degrade in value. Use the money you saved on a real stone of some sort. Or just put it in the bank. Sorry if I sound negative about this, but I really think you'll find I'm right!
     
  30. denverappraiser
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    by denverappraiser » Jul 20, 2011
    Re: 0.59ct non-ideal cut round created $3k, good or bad deal

    I agree with you that synthetic diamonds are a crappy 'investment' for most people although I wouldn't limit this to synthetics. It also applies to natural diamonds and to sapphires and rubies as well. Actually, it applies to nearly everything you buy. Synthetic diamonds have been manufactured for 60 years or so and have been commercially available in a significant way for about 15. The quantum shift where prices drop to nothing because of technological advances has yet to happen and it doesn't seem to be looming. Maybe it will, but rather like your example of sapphire watch crystals (and most mined diamonds by the way), the majority of the costs are in the processing and the distribution, not the manufacturing/mining. Synthetic diamonds are cut using the same tools and skills as their natural counterparts, they're distributed through very similar channels, and both of these processes are very expensive. I don't see any evidence of either of those changing. Do you? I don't have the stats in front of me but it's only something like 25% of the cost the 'typical' diamond that goes to the mine. The rest goes to cutters, sorters, dealers, bankers, shippers, tax collectors, jewelers, labs, etc.

    One of the interesting lessons to be learned from the history of synthetic rubies and sapphires (and quite a few other stones) comes from teh observation that it HASN'T destroyed the market for similar natural stones. If anything, the finest rubies and sapphires are doing better now than ever before despite the presence of spectacularly good synthetics available for a fraction of the price. I see quite a bit of handwringing in the press that the synthetics are going to become so abundant that it will overtake and destroy the market for natural diamonds. This strikes me as highly unlikely. Even ignoring the fact that the growers don't seem to be nearly as clever as they're being given credit for, I'm far from persuaded that natural diamonds would be adversely affected in the long term even if they COULD make stones for 1/100 of the price.
     

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