Sullivan makes good points about how gay community is blowing it

[arkieb1]

I know, I get it. What's the alternative? Give up? Anarchy?

Look at this example of the gay art teacher that was sacked/fired in Australia because of posting an image sending up Belinda Carlisle on facebook.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-06/teacher-loses-job-after-telling-school-hes-gay/9231948

This guy is a committed Christian who actually went to this school himself. But here in Australia under the state's Equal opportunity Act, there is, "a provision that allows faith-based schools to dismiss staff if their beliefs are at odds with the teachings of the school."

Most Christian schools in your country and mine, no doubt are the same - they can discriminate here under the law in regards to who they employ and which students or families they allow into their schools. Here far right Christian groups are trying to lobby to extend this to not only schools but to businesses as well that they can deny goods and services to anyone they believe are at odds with their belief systems.

Do I agree with it? No. Should we give up? No, if anything I'm pointing out there is a lot more work to be done educating our young people and changing all laws in our societies including in schools so they do not discriminate against anyone.

We also btw have laws here in Australia that restrict alcohol in some Indigenous communities, yes that is correct, there are by-laws that actually restrict or have "dry areas' across Australia, so laws made by white people because it has been deemed our black people in certain areas don't have the ability to self regulate when it comes to alcohol consumption.

What can I say, sometimes the law is an ass.

 

[sonnyjane]

I don't think your analogies above are... analogous. Choosing to agree or disagree with the KKK is a belief system. In the US, at least, we are all free to choose to believe or not believe what we want. Being gay isn't a belief system that others have the right to agree or disagree with. It's an inherent trait, as are ethnicity and colour. Superimposing your belief system on someone to deny them a basic service or right is just flat out wrong. And, yeah, they could have gone to another bakery, but why should they have to?

I'm actually getting a little sick of the arguments that social change has to be slow to allow the larger society to adapt. Why should the victims of discrimination or oppression wait for the discriminators/oppressors to be ready to accept changes? Eff that.

But sadly not everyone BELIEVES that being gay is an inherent trait, and by "not everyone" I mean an awful lot of lawmakers! I don't like the state of our country right now and I REALLY don't want to wait 3 more years to have it turn around, but I'm not sure what to do about it? Open to ideas!

 

[Maria D]

I don't think your analogies above are... analogous. Choosing to agree or disagree with the KKK is a belief system. In the US, at least, we are all free to choose to believe or not believe what we want. Being gay isn't a belief system that others have the right to agree or disagree with. It's an inherent trait, as are ethnicity and colour. Superimposing your belief system on someone to deny them a basic service or right is just flat out wrong. And, yeah, they could have gone to another bakery, but why should they have to?

I'm actually getting a little sick of the arguments that social change has to be slow to allow the larger society to adapt. Why should the victims of discrimination or oppression wait for the discriminators/oppressors to be ready to accept changes? Eff that.

I agree that making a KKK or Nazi celebration cake isn't analogous. But it's not that this baker wouldn't serve a customer with the inherent trait of being gay. He's not denying anyone the "right" to his service based on a belief system, he's just refusing to make same-sex wedding cakes and halloween cakes.

Years ago I remember Calvin Klein was asked on a talk show why he didn't design clothing in plus sizes. (I think it was on the Oprah show.) His response was that his design aesthetic was not suited to that body type. The response did not go over well. He felt that there were other designers that were more attuned to designing for that market. Should he have been sued? Being plus size can also be an inherent trait. Why should larger women be forced to go somewhere else to buy clothing?

Just playing devil's advocate...I think the baker should have just baked the damned cake or the couple should have just gone somewhere else.

 

[nala]

I'm glad it went to the Supreme Court. Can't believe people think it's just about cake. Guess it's all fun and games to some of you until it's an issue that personally affects you. That's what's wrong with this world.

 

[Calliecake]

It hurts to see this country taking steps backward.

 

[missy]

I don't think your analogies above are... analogous. Choosing to agree or disagree with the KKK is a belief system. In the US, at least, we are all free to choose to believe or not believe what we want. Being gay isn't a belief system that others have the right to agree or disagree with. It's an inherent trait, as are ethnicity and colour. Superimposing your belief system on someone to deny them a basic service or right is just flat out wrong. And, yeah, they could have gone to another bakery, but why should they have to?

I'm actually getting a little sick of the arguments that social change has to be slow to allow the larger society to adapt. Why should the victims of discrimination or oppression wait for the discriminators/oppressors to be ready to accept changes? Eff that.

Yes exactly. Not even remotely a close analogy IMO.
And +1 to everything you wrote.


Plus for the sake of playing called devil's advocate for those of you who think it's a choice OK let's say it is a choice...well it's a choice that hurts NO ONE. Being gay is a personal matter and is IMO none of your business. Why do others think it's their business or their right to determine if someone has the right to be gay? No one is getting hurt. You cannot compare being gay to being in the KKK or another hate group. It's a nonsensical comparison. And also an insulting one.

And to quote the great MLK Jr
So sad how true they ring still. Substitute the words with whatever group is experiencing injustice and it is spot on.

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”

 

[Maria D]

I'm glad it went to the Supreme Court. Can't believe people think it's just about cake. Guess it's all fun and games to some of you until it's an issue that personally affects you. That's what's wrong with this world.

It isn't about cake, it's about wedding cake. Can a priest be forced to perform a same-sex marriage? Should you be forced to make this cake?

 

[nala]

It isn't about cake, it's about wedding cake. Can a priest be forced to perform a same-sex marriage? Should you be forced to make this cake?

I'm sorry. Are you equating a church with a bakery? A baker with a priest? And if I was a business person, I wouldn't have a problem making this cake.

 

[Maria D]

Yes exactly. Not even remotely a close analogy IMO.
And +1 to everything you wrote.


Plus for the sake of playing called devil's advocate for those of you who think it's a choice OK let's say it is a choice...well it's a choice that hurts NO ONE. Being gay is a personal matter and is IMO none of your business. Why do others think it's their business or their right to determine if someone has the right to be gay? No one is getting hurt. You cannot compare being gay to being in the KKK or another hate group. It's a nonsensical comparison. And also an insulting one.

And to quote the great MLK Jr
So sad how true they ring still. Substitute the words with whatever group is experiencing injustice and it is spot on.

Who is this baker hurting by refusing to make same-sex wedding cakes? Or halloween cakes for that matter. I don't go to a kosher deli for a ham sandwich and do not feel affronted by the fact that I have to go elsewhere for one.

You are going way past the argument of this particular case if you think this baker is trying to take away the right of his customers to be gay. You are writing as if he is refusing to sell his offerings to people that are gay when that isn't the case. His argument is that he can't sell them a wedding cake because he can't make same-sex wedding cakes for religious reasons.

I think we may all be in for a surprise when even the more liberal SCJ's rule in favor of the baker.

 

[sonnyjane]

I'm sorry. Are you equating a church with a bakery? A baker with a priest? And if I was a business person, I wouldn't have a problem making this cake.

What if someone wanted you to bake a "Life Begins at Conception" cake with a fetus on top if you were ardently pro-choice? Just curious.

 

[Maria D]

I'm sorry. Are you equating a church with a bakery? A baker with a priest? And if I was a business person, I wouldn't have a problem making this cake.

I wouldn't either. But I know plenty of religious people that would have a huge problem with it.

How is a church that performs marriages for only some kinds of people different than a bakery that makes wedding cakes for only some kinds of marriages?

*edited to add: Personally I think churches should be treated exactly like businesses and forced to pay taxes too!

 

[Maria D]

What if someone wanted you to bake a "Life Begins at Conception" cake with a fetus on top if you were ardently pro-choice? Just curious.

eeeewwwww.....I'm afraid that if I google this it will actually exist.

I was thinking of those creepy Purity Ring ceremonies...I wouldn't want to make that cake.

 

[sonnyjane]

I wouldn't either. But I know plenty of religious people that would have a huge problem with it.

How is a church that performs marriages for only some kinds of people different than a bakery that makes wedding cakes for only some kinds of marriages?

*edited to add: Personally I think churches should be treated exactly like businesses and forced to pay taxes too!

And that's where this court decision is going to be important as far as scope goes.

 

[nala]

And that's where this court decision is going to be important as far as scope goes.

Exactly. That's why I'm glad that it went to the Supreme Court and wasn't ignored as a non issue

 

[nala]

What if someone wanted you to bake a "Life Begins at Conception" cake with a fetus on top if you were ardently pro-choice? Just curious.

No problem. I used to watch cake boss. Lol. Anything goes when you view cake as a vehicle of art and creativity, not to mention a business.

 

[Matata]

Who is this baker hurting by refusing to make same-sex wedding cakes? Or halloween cakes for that matter. I don't go to a kosher deli for a ham sandwich and do not feel affronted by the fact that I have to go elsewhere for one.

Ooookay. The baker is hurting the same-sex couple that wants a wedding cake because the baker's religion says that same-sex couples are an abomination. I'm thinking there are a lot of people whose feelings would be hurt by being thought of as an abomination. When I go to a kosher deli I expect kosher food. When I go to a bakery, I expect to be able to order any kind of baked good that general bakeries bake. When I go to a cupcake shop, I don't expect to be able to buy a cake. When I go to a bakery that makes only vegan or gluten-free goods, I'm not going to raise a fuss because none of those situations is based on the belief that another human being is an abomination.

 

[sonnyjane]

Exactly. That's why I'm glad that it went to the Supreme Court and wasn't ignored as a non issue

Definitely not a non-issue, but the downside is if this conservative SCOTUS says it's ok to deny a wedding-related service to homosexuals because your religion doesn't agree with it, does that trickle down to renting to gay couples, hiring gay employees, etc. ? It certainly opens a door that we *thought* had been shut.

 

[nala]

I wouldn't either. But I know plenty of religious people that would have a huge problem with it.

How is a church that performs marriages for only some kinds of people different than a bakery that makes wedding cakes for only some kinds of marriages?

*edited to add: Personally I think churches should be treated exactly like businesses and forced to pay taxes too!

What you think is irrelevant when it comes to separation of church and state. That is why this " cake" is a big deal. Maybe now you can appreciate that it's made it this far.

 

[nala]

Definitely not a non-issue, but the downside is if this conservative SCOTUS says it's ok to deny a wedding-related service to homosexuals because your religion doesn't agree with it, does that trickle down to renting to gay couples, hiring gay employees, etc. ? It certainly opens a door that we *thought* had been shut.

There are a lot of what if's but glad to see it's being considered. A lot of what if's both ways.

 

[Maria D]

Ooookay. The baker is hurting the same-sex couple that wants a wedding cake because the baker's religion says that same-sex couples are an abomination. I'm thinking there are a lot of people whose feelings would be hurt by being thought of as an abomination. When I go to a kosher deli I expect kosher food. When I go to a bakery, I expect to be able to order any kind of baked good that general bakeries bake. When I go to a cupcake shop, I don't expect to be able to buy a cake. When I go to a bakery that makes only vegan or gluten-free goods, I'm not going to raise a fuss because none of those situations is based on the belief that another human being is an abomination.

Even if the baker makes the cake, his religion will still have him believing that same-sex couples are an abomination. The baker is not responsible for the feelings of the same-sex couple. People above a size 16 may have had hurt feelings because at one time Calvin Klein didn't feel their bodies were aesthetically pleasing enough to design for.

When I go to a baker so Christian he thinks halloween is an abomination, I don't expect to buy a halloween cake.

 

[Matata]

Even if the baker makes the cake, his religion will still have him believing that same-sex couples are an abomination. The baker is not responsible for the feelings of the same-sex couple. People above a size 16 may have had hurt feelings because at one time Calvin Klein didn't feel their bodies were aesthetically pleasing enough to design for.
When I go to a baker so Christian he thinks halloween is an abomination, I don't expect to buy a halloween cake.

I'm not offended by someone who thinks a day of the year is an abomination but I am saddened by a person of faith who thinks another human being is an abomination because of who they love. This particular baker sounds as though he could use some counseling to deal with his faith-induced paranoia.

 

[sonnyjane]

When I go to a baker so Christian he thinks halloween is an abomination, I don't expect to buy a halloween cake.

Maybe all businesses need to have signage on their windows, just like how restaurants have their health inspection grading readily visible. It could be color-coded and everything. "Conservative Christian", or "Bleeding Heart Liberal" etc. That way the consumers would know what they were walking into

 

[arkieb1]

I don't think your analogies above are... analogous. Choosing to agree or disagree with the KKK is a belief system. In the US, at least, we are all free to choose to believe or not believe what we want. Being gay isn't a belief system that others have the right to agree or disagree with. It's an inherent trait, as are ethnicity and colour. Superimposing your belief system on someone to deny them a basic service or right is just flat out wrong. And, yeah, they could have gone to another bakery, but why should they have to?

Even though I think people missed it, I think my analogy is a more pointed one, private schools such as Catholic, Baptist, Christian, Muslim schools all have the right under Australian law to hire and fire whomever they like and take only students and families that concur with their belief systems. I'm not commenting upon if this is right or wrong merely that an argument could be that if at those schools parents pay a lot of money to send their children to attend there, they can then pick and choose who they employ and teach then they are arguing here at least that the baker, the minister, the priest, and so on also have the right to do the same thing.

Maybe it is true all businesses need to be signed as well as schools stating up front what they stand for.... so if we don't agree we can give them a wide berth.

 

[AprilBaby]

No matter what gets decided someone rights are infringed on. Putting someone out of business when you can go to another bakery is pretty poor. The Christian can’t get away from their belief even if you don’t believe the same thing. They feel just as strongly as you do about your rights. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just different. People vary.

 

[sonnyjane]

Maybe it is true all businesses need to be signed as well as schools stating up front what they stand for.... so if we don't agree we can give them a wide berth.

I said it at first in jest but now I think we’re on to something. As a consumer I don't WANT to support people with beliefs I think are immortal. I’ll never shop at Hobby Lobby for example because their beliefs have been widely publicized. If every mom and pop store were the same, maybe economics would influence politics. That would be the good scenario. The far more likely scenario is that conservatives will support conservatives and liberals will support liberals.

 

[Matata]

The Christian can’t get away from their belief even if you don’t believe the same thing.

This isn't just about what people believe -- it's how they act. There are people in this world whose beliefs are counter to mine and I would not refuse them service because underneath all our differences we are human beings. That is what i've been trying to articulate all day -- we are the same underneath all the accoutrements of our native societies and cultures. And that should be the tie that binds us. Instead we adhere to beliefs that divide us.

 

[AprilBaby]

But it’s specifically for a wedding. It goes totally against belief. Any other cake would be fine. I would make the cake myself but I understand why they won’t.

 

[Matata]

 

[arkieb1]

I said it at first in jest but now I think we’re on to something. As a consumer I don't WANT to support people with beliefs I think are immortal. I’ll never shop at Hobby Lobby for example because their beliefs have been widely publicized. If every mom and pop store were the same, maybe economics would influence politics. That would be the good scenario. The far more likely scenario is that conservatives will support conservatives and liberals will support liberals.

I know it was in jest but I can imagine via Facebook that anyone pro human rights will boycott businesses that refuse to serve people anyway.... so if they have their policies clearly stated in windows, we can avoid them.

 

[arkieb1]

This isn't just about what people believe -- it's how they act. There are people in this world whose beliefs are counter to mine and I would not refuse them service because underneath all our differences we are human beings. That is what i've been trying to articulate all day -- we are the same underneath all the accoutrements of our native societies and cultures. And that should be the tie that binds us. Instead we adhere to beliefs that divide us.

Do your children go to private schools? The thing that I acknowledge is that we have one set of rules for schools and another for businesses. In a perfect world we would all respect diversity and be willing to serve and not judge anyone else but we don't live in a perfect world. You currently have one of the most intolerant set of leaders in your white house for over a decade.

IMHO the simple truth is many Americans fear equality. (And a small number of Aussies too).