Would you rather have H&A or Higher Color?

[glitterati]

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to ask your expertise/opinion on something!!

Assuming 1.5-1.6ct size, VS2/SI clarity, would it be better to have:

- F/G color, EX/ID cut without H&A

or

- H color, H&A pattern

I love the H&A pattern, but not sure how visible it would be compared to the color?

Advice much appreciated!

 

[stebbo]

Date: 8/21/2007 3:07:01 AM
Author:glitterati
Hi everyone,

Just wanted to ask your expertise/opinion on something!!

Assuming 1.5-1.6ct size, VS2/SI clarity, would it be better to have:

- F/G color, EX/ID cut without H&A

or

- H color, H&A pattern

I love the H&A pattern, but not sure how visible it would be compared to the color?

Advice much appreciated!

You love the H&A pattern, so that's the answer. This is the best indication of what's right for you.

You won't be unhappy with an H in a Ex/ID cut unless you can see the brown in running tap water!

 

[glitterati]

I guess my concern is that the H will show color on the sides?

I''ve heard a well-cut stone will hide/deflect some color, but don''t think this applies to the sides.

 

[stebbo]

It's just that in practice you've got colors from the environment constantly 'changing the white balance' of what you see anyway, if you know what I mean. I wouldn't agonize over a color grade. Two color grades I'd start looking at other factors like:

1. The setting - how open are the sides? If you're getting a GIA Ex, the sides might be bright as well

2. High 'H' or not - it could be borderline G or borderline I

3. Fluorescence - can lessen a tint

4. How often you clean your jewelry

 

[asscherisme]

I love the pattern so I would go for the H. Unless the other was significantly bigger in which case I would go for that.

 

[rainydaze]

do you have two specific stones picked out or is this hypothetical? if you have them picked out, have you seen them in person and side-by-side? i think that''s the only way for you to determine which appeals most to you. see if you can have them both sent to an appraiser near you so you can view them, compare, and learn more, as well as get an unbiased opinion and see them in normal lighting conditions. it''s worth the $100!

if you have seen them and been able to compare them side-by-side, which one jumped out at you?

all that said, if i were just starting to look at stones and decide what direction to head in, i think i might personally head for H&As with lower color over whiter non-H&As. i love DEF diamonds, but i recently (finally!) saw some H&As and they blew me away. i might drop a little in carat size to go up in color from an H and to still get an H&A. after all, what are any of the other qualities without a GREAT cut, and you said it yourself, you love the H&A cut. don''t forget about whiteflash''s expert selection, those are H&A cuts that didn''t make the ACA grade (my understanding is that most just missed it) so you might be able to get everything you want - H&A, F/G, carat size, and price. why not have it all?!?

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

well, I may be wrong I suppose, but I believe that in general if you have 2 ideal cut diamonds with ideal symmetry (and I believe that also entails that you shoudl see a clear arrows pattern from the face up position, though you would usually need a photograph, symmetry scope, or real diffused lighting looking at the diamond from directly above to even see that anyway) but there would not be any visual difference to your naked eye, face up or face down, that was actually CAUSED by the hearts pattern. There may well be other visual differences caused by a variety of factors, but not by the actual hearts pattern. also the Hearts and Arrows title does not necessarily indicate better performance, especially not if you are talking about between two Ideal cut diamonds. Remember what the hearts image really is, when you flip the diamond upside down and bring out an symmetry scope and look at JUST the right angle (slightly off and it suddenly becomes a complete mess) you can see a hearts pattern if the ballance between LGF, stars, angles and everythign is just right. It is not, however, something that you would ever notice face up and not something that truly indicates superior performance in itself but is instead a mental issue more than anything else. Whereas color MIGHT be visible to you, and to me the difference between an F and H face up is quite apparant, so I think you really need to get some diamonds of different colors and look at them face up in a diffuse office type lighting, a dim environemtn, take it outside and look at them at different angles under natural lighting, and whatever other test you can run.

But anyway, if you are talking about two truly ideal cut diamonds and two color grades, I def say go for the higher color grade. If it is one color grade, then I dont think it will really matter once you begin living with the diamond daily, I would probably pick the higher color, but the romanticism of hearts and arrows could well sway me in that case as well... at any rate the best way is obviously to look at the two.


(also remember that Excellent cuts are not necessariily the same or as good as an Ideal cut, though they certainly can be)

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/21/2007 11:15:33 AM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
well, I may be wrong I suppose, but I believe that in general if you have 2 ideal cut diamonds with ideal symmetry (and I believe that also entails that you shoudl see a clear arrows pattern from the face up position, though you would usually need a photograph, symmetry scope, or real diffused lighting looking at the diamond from directly above to even see that anyway) but there would not be any visual difference to your naked eye, face up or face down, that was actually CAUSED by the hearts pattern. There may well be other visual differences caused by a variety of factors, but not by the actual hearts pattern. also the Hearts and Arrows title does not necessarily indicate better performance, especially not if you are talking about between two Ideal cut diamonds. Remember what the hearts image really is, when you flip the diamond upside down and bring out an symmetry scope and look at JUST the right angle (slightly off and it suddenly becomes a complete mess) you can see a hearts pattern if the ballance between LGF, stars, angles and everythign is just right. It is not, however, something that you would ever notice face up and not something that truly indicates superior performance in itself but is instead a mental issue more than anything else. Whereas color MIGHT be visible to you, and to me the difference between an F and H face up is quite apparant, so I think you really need to get some diamonds of different colors and look at them face up in a diffuse office type lighting, a dim environemtn, take it outside and look at them at different angles under natural lighting, and whatever other test you can run.

But anyway, if you are talking about two truly ideal cut diamonds and two color grades, I def say go for the higher color grade. If it is one color grade, then I dont think it will really matter once you begin living with the diamond daily, I would probably pick the higher color, but the romanticism of hearts and arrows could well sway me in that case as well... at any rate the best way is obviously to look at the two.


(also remember that Excellent cuts are not necessariily the same or as good as an Ideal cut, though they certainly can be)

I think some here (cutters included)) might argue that one.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 8/21/2007 11:32:12 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 8/21/2007 11:15:33 AM

Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

I think some here (cutters included)) might argue that one.

Would it not be possible to have a diamond with slightly less light return than another diamond of ideal cut, and it display the hearts and arrows pattern and the better one not? certainly

also, when you are talking about very high % of light return already (as is the case with many ideal cut diamonds) then you get into issues of taste, exactly how the diamond performs, which is relative to a wide variety of particular elements such as table size, exact crown angle/pavilion angle relationships, LGF, etc) and so in those cases you coudl certainly have a diamond that returns equivalent or plus minus 1% light in a pariticular pattern or quality that is more pleasing to your eye than another diamond that also performs very well and displays the hearts and arrows pattern.

It is certainly possible for a diamond without the hearts and arrows pattern to perform as well and better without the hearts pattern, and it is also true that if the arrows are crisp and clean, symmetry ideal, then there is no way to actually differentiate between the two visually face up, or without a scope face down.

and this question I am not 100% sure about but I think is true, Is it not possible to create the Hearts and Arrows pattern in none ideal cut diamonds?

While you might be able to argue witht he mental issue, if this is the case that a non-AGS0 type light performance diamond can display the hearts and arrows pattern, then there is no question that hearts and arrows is not indicitive of top of the line light return. and I think that to be the case yes? If I am wrong though, well, then I apologize

. However, even if it did indicate top of the line light performance, that still does not mean that there woudl be any visual difference at all face up when compared to another top performer with out "technical" hearts and arrows pattern (remember it could be that there is one heart somewhat smaller than the others, or a clefts just a little bit too long, various things can cause it not to be a hearts and arrows without actually affecting performance)

 

[Ellen]

WH, I didn''t post that to raise a big debate, or even a little one. It''s just that when I read that, all I could hear was Brian Gavin saying, "It''s all in the hearts".

*shrugs*

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I would go with the F if it was near H&A, but probably with the H if the F wasn''t as well cut. I''m actually not sure if I''d want a H&A though for a large stone. It may be too precision for me. I''d guess I''d have to look at both in person to judge which appealed to me more.

 

[FireGoddess]

It would depend how well the F/G is cut. If it''s really, really close to H&A but didn''t quite make it, I''d very likely go for better color. The branded H&A thing isn''t as important to me, as long as the stone is well cut. I''ve seen stones that missed H&A slightly but a lay person would hardly know why.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 8/21/2007 6:15:31 PM
Author: FireGoddess
It would depend how well the F/G is cut. If it''s really, really close to H&A but didn''t quite make it, I''d very likely go for better color. The branded H&A thing isn''t as important to me, as long as the stone is well cut. I''ve seen stones that missed H&A slightly but a lay person would hardly know why.

yep, my eng. stone is a near H&A and it''s gorgeous. Sometimes I wonder if H&A don''t have enough personality. They seem TOO perfect.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/21/2007 6:27:26 PM
Author: MC
yep, my eng. stone is a near H&A and it''s gorgeous. Sometimes I wonder if H&A don''t have enough personality. They seem TOO perfect.

No such thang.

 

[risingsun]

Hearts and arrows are an artifact of how precisely the stone is cut. Remember, not all hearts and arrows are created equal[ly]. If you admire the workmanship that goes into a superb H & A diamond--and I do--then go for it! If not, pick the higher color. WH--have you read all the tutorials on H & A diamonds? If not, I suggest you take a look

The hearts are not a mental issue. Read what Brian Gavin has to say.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 8/21/2007 7:07:22 PM
Author: risingsun
Hearts and arrows are an artifact of how precisely the stone is cut. Remember, not all hearts and arrows are created equal[ly]. If you admire the workmanship that goes into a superb H & A diamond--and I do--then go for it! If not, pick the higher color. WH--have you read all the tutorials on H & A diamonds? If not, I suggest you take a look

The hearts are not a mental issue. Read what Brian Gavin has to say.

I did read it and I had a few thoughts I will attach in a moment. but, I am interested in knowing the answer to this question, which is not to start any trouble and I understand non of the vendors here created he Hearts and Arrows designation, it is world wide. I am just not 100% sure on the correct answer. If you have a top performer with ideal symmetry and polish and very crisp and clearly defined arrows that does not display the heaerts pattern perfectly (or even well), exactly what would be the visual difference face up from a top performer that does display the hearts and arrows pattern?

some of the above post alluded to the average layman hardly being able to tell the difference--suggesting that there would be some visual difference to the average layman even with crisp clear arrows and slightly irregular hearts, so I assume that someone must know exactly what that difference would be from the face up position?

----------------------

and my question as it relates to the tutorial,

In the tutorial there was some discussion of how the angles affects light return, but in a top performer you are already getting that very very high % light return, so we know that light return is obtainable without the hearts pattern.

At another point in the text Mr. Gavin points out that symmetry errors can easily be masked in the face up view when only looking at the arrows, he then went on to show examples of how hearts and arrows diamonds look different from non-hearts and arrows diamonds, yet non of those examples had crisp clear arrows. Even in the examples where the hearts were not too terrible the arrows image was clearly out of wack, causing for a very apparant visual difference not necessesarily as a result of the hearts being incorrect but rather as a result of the arrows being messed up. this is demonstrated by the fact that he uses an AGS0 hearts and arrows in comparison with an AGS1 (symmetry grade), but he does not provide an example of an AGS0 with the hearts and arrows compared to an AGS0 without the hearts pattern. which means that the demonstration he provided, useful though it is, failed to show a diamond with ideal symmetry face up (perfect arrows) but lacking the super ideal symmetry of the heaerts pattern which is what this thread is really about, and as we all know, all AGS0 do not qualify as Hearts and Arrows. Thus I was wondering what if any difference would exist in that case, as asked above.

 

[JohnQuixote]

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Thanks for the response JQ. What I am not understandig is that the Hearts pattern was a relatively recent discovery--so my impression is that while super ideal symmetry has always existed, until someone thought to check for it from the pavilion side there was no way to determine it visually.

It has also been told to me that there is no way to test and check if a mounted diamond displays the hearts pattern short of unmounting it. Bassically, my understanding from reading tutorials such as brians is that from the face up position the symmetery of only a limited number of facets can readily be observed with any precision or accuracy, even with magnification or symmetry scopes. However, when you turn it over you can observe the symmetery to much greater detail.

Thus, I cant help but think that if it is impossible for a gemologist to look at a mounted stone from the face up and tell you if it displays the hearts and Arrows pattern, then having the hearts and arrows pattern itself should not create any actual visual difference in a mounted stone--or else I assume that it shoudl be able to be determined after mounting right?

Also, I am sure you know this answer, can angles outside of Ideal angle parameters be aligned in such a way as to create the hearts pattern?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Last Qs first.

Date: 8/22/2007 2:17:12 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

...Thus, I cant help but think that if it is impossible for a gemologist to look at a mounted stone from the face up and tell you if it displays the hearts and Arrows pattern, then having the hearts and arrows pattern itself should not create any actual visual difference in a mounted stone--or else I assume that it shoudl be able to be determined after mounting right?

Right, overall cut precision can't be determined face-up, but this isn’t limited to patterning.The color grade can’t be determined with the stone mounted either, nor can one precisely measure painting or digging without complete analysis. These things all contribute to appearance, even when subtle, which is why a diamond is best appraised loose.

Also, I am sure you know this answer, can angles outside of Ideal angle parameters be aligned in such a way as to create the hearts pattern?

Yes, in some configs, but you won’t see it much when the plan is saving weight.Precise optical symmetry takes extra time and requires more weight polished away.There's not much financial incentive for rounds in configurations falling outside top cut grades to be fine-tuned in a way that reduces weight but doesn't improve the paper.

But for your pleasure, with the magic of DiamCalc, here are a couple of outside configs that would display the patterning if they were perfectly H&A’d (modern Tolk in the middle).

 

[glitterati]

Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge and opinions!!!

I think we are going with an H&A!!

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Well, WorkingHard, I must say that you are indeed a hard worker. I notice that you have more than 700 posts, after being here less than three months.

As for the question of the value of super-symmetry, and where it starts and ends to be important, this is not only a question of personal taste, it is also a matter not entirely researched yet. AGS, at the forefront of cut-research, is only starting the phase of researching scintillation. With scintillation in my eyes being the most important factor of a diamond''s light performance, this research might well bring an answer to your questions.

Until we have results from this and other research, we can only rely on personal observation, and on trying to deduct theories. As such, I am convinced that superior symmetry causes more crisp scintillation, which I think is more pleasant to observe, and it is something that we together with a high number of consumers observe.

I think that I have to conclude that there is no definite answer to this yet.

Live long,

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 8/24/2007 4:08:52 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Well, WorkingHard, I must say that you are indeed a hard worker. I notice that you have more than 700 posts, after being here less than three months.


As for the question of the value of super-symmetry, and where it starts and ends to be important, this is not only a question of personal taste, it is also a matter not entirely researched yet. AGS, at the forefront of cut-research, is only starting the phase of researching scintillation. With scintillation in my eyes being the most important factor of a diamond's light performance, this research might well bring an answer to your questions.


Until we have results from this and other research, we can only rely on personal observation, and on trying to deduct theories. As such, I am convinced that superior symmetry causes more crisp scintillation, which I think is more pleasant to observe, and it is something that we together with a high number of consumers observe.


I think that I have to conclude that there is no definite answer to this yet.


Live long,

ahh well, I have allways been a big buffet fan. Quantity over quality I say

Hopefully they will get answer to exactly how it affects performance before too long though, I really need to write James Allen and try to get them to send me a new appraisal that has hearts and arrows listed on it, I had asked for it originally but they left it out, perhaps they wont oblige me in that regard afterall, but if AGS or other labs do discover that there is some appreciable difference and begin noting it on there reports then hearts and arrows diamonds may well carry an even greater premium than they do now over in the states. I would still pick the benefits of 2 color grades with an AGS0 over the hearts and arrows as the selling factor anyday though

, but I will be on the lookout to see what happens.

 

[stebbo]

Date: 8/24/2007 4:08:52 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Well, WorkingHard, I must say that you are indeed a hard worker. I notice that you have more than 700 posts, after being here less than three months.

Yes, that''s an amazing effort - maybe the quickest Ideal Rock ever? Some other posters here have nearly doubled that rate, and kept it going for years! Staggering...