shelleydog
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 172
Would you consider a RB with a lot of twinning wisps if it was AGS 000?
- Thread starter rainierinspring
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- May 3, 2001
- Messages
- 7,516
I think NOT! As Garry said, they could issue the report based on just a scan, but THEY DO NOT! The eyes are also involved.
If the wisps were such that they destroyed the beauty of the diamond, the diamond would be graded appropriately.
I do disagree with Garry about twinning wisps. Some of the best values I have ever seen in a diamond were colorless wisps bringing the clarity down to an SI1 or SI2 while leaving the stone absolutely eye clean and dazzling from the top. (Unlike some, I only grade the diamond from the top when assigning a grade. I have no quarrel with those who want diamonds clean from all angles, but they are rarely able to buy a stone below VS1 (or sometimes a VS2) that meets their requirements, thus loosing out on many diamonds that many of my clients love love love!)
My personal recommendation is that our OP bring the diamond in to look at and return it if it does not make both the eyes and the heart happy. It is only by seeing the diamond in person that the OP can learn what pleases or does not please.
Just the thoughts of Wink on a Sunny Saturday afternoon. I am going to go play with my grand kids now...
whatmeworry
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- May 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,095
What does "destroy the beauty" and "appropriate" mean?
Suppose a diamond was sent to AGSL and got an AGS0 based on ray tracing. It then goes to grader Garry and he says "not beautiful" this is an AGS2. And how does grader Garry come up with 2 instead of 1 or 3? But the same diamond could also go to grader Wink and he says "This is beautiful" this is an AGS0. Is this what happens?
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 19,185
A good vendor, or if you do not trust the vendor, a good appraiser, is vital.
Labs are not there to tell you if a diamond is good or not. They have grading rules they MUST follow for predictability, otherwise no one sends them work.
That said, I wish AGS would open up down-under. It is hard to get AGS graded stones outside USA
- Joined
- May 3, 2001
- Messages
- 7,516
No. AGS says which stones are AGS 0 and which stones are not. As vendors or graders we can say whether or not we agree with the grade but we can not arbitrarily change it. We can also have honest differences in opinions. Garry has already stated that he does not like twinning wisps. I have already stated that they can be a tremenous value, although I have not seen many of them in rounds, I see them much more often in cuts like trillions that make use of the rough that is more often cut into such shapes rather than rounds.
Is Garry wrong?
Or am I wrong?
Hmmmm???
I think neither of us is wrong. He does not care for them, I do, under some circumstances.
Now you must remember that I also like some I1''s, which is of course forbidden, but I do it any way.
I am a huge believer in buying with your eyes, not with paper. I am also a HUGE lover of the look of an extremely well cut diamond, which is shy I love the AGS 0 cut grade. I have been selling the better cut diamonds since I graduated from GIA in 1975, only then we did not have the tools to really know what a top cut was. As the tools have become better the grading systems have been forced to become more realistic and they have made huge strides in keeping up with the technology.
Still, I think you should buy with your eyes, not with paper. I just happen to think that the paper I like to use is a great tool for those who have not had the time and the experience to train their eyes to see what I and others who think like I do see. If I can use a really poor analogy, the AGS paper is like having a true friend in the business who has your best interests at heart. They are going to give the same consideration to every diamond and give it the grade it earns according to very strict rules. So is the GIA, I just like the AGS rules better.
So, before I ramble on any more let me just say that I will not attempt to define "destroy the beauty" or "appropriate" for you. You will know it, for you, when you see it. Some will know it, for them, differently. That is okay, it is within the rules of what you should buy for you. It is NOT okay for me to try to set those rules for you, but it is also okay for me to share with you my opinion and let you make your own rules for you.
Just my opinion, of course. I guess playing with Grandkids makes you more mellow on a Saturday evening.
Enjoy!
Wink
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 19,185
WMW - its all about rules.
Wink perhaps we need some nice people to post images of SI2 stones with wisps and we can give our opinions.
One of my main beefs with wisps is they tend to be reflected more. I think there can be a big difference between education type - in uSA you tend to have a microscope clarity grading bias - back lit with a shallower depth of feild - and you may not see the reflections as when diamonds are lit more face up the way I was edjukatuud to grade with a loupe.
One of the great conundrums in grading is how much weight is placed on reflections - 1st, 2nd and third. I palce a lot of weight on them because I believe they really do reduce brilliance. Of course the better the cut the less the impact.
BTW Mate, c u in Vegas - 10 days!!!!
where did that year go?
- Joined
- May 3, 2001
- Messages
- 7,516
Yes you will friend! It will be nice to have our "discussions" over a glass of (fill in your favorite beverage this year) and also to get deeply immersed in gemology and jewelry with you, Paul, John, and so many others. One of these years you will have to drag Sergey with you so that we can meet in person and carry our conversations to the same deep and personal levels that we have all come to treasure so much.
Oh dear, I hope we are not letting the cat out of the bag that we all respect each other so much. What will our public think of our petty disagreements if they know we don''t take them personally?
Oh, as for where did the year go? It went well. It was filled with family and friends, and grandkids and diamonds and wonderful colored gems, just like we knew it would be. We heard rumors that the economy was hard and that the world as we knew it was ending, so we worked harder and had more fun, just like you did I imagine. Since we never took the time to slow down and worry it went fast, just as it should have! See you in only a few more short days!
Wink
Imdanny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 6,186
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 19,185
Imdanny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 6,186
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 23,295
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2002
- Messages
- 2,859
I just read this, and while it is a threadjack, I cannot let this pass by without a reaction.Date: 5/15/2009 9:46:28 PM
Author: Gypsy
It really was. Garry, is it just me or do you have some sort of vendetta against Brian and towards Paul from Infinity too (something I''ve noticed from your recent posts). Both of whom are the only ''real'' diamond cutters who post on here. Do you not like cutters or is it something personal? I''d really like to know.
When it comes down to disagreements, I generally feel that I am the one attacking Garry''s points-of-view, while I do not feel that he is really attacking mine. As such, from my point-of-view, there is definitely no vendetta of Garry versus myself. I must say that I sometimes feel sorry when I disagree with Garry again, since it sometimes seems to be very regular and repetitive, and I fear that some will interpret it as a vendetta of myself against Garry.
The truth is that we have very high respect for eachother, while having a lot of agreements in general and a lot of disagreements in detail. Part of this is because of different goals. Garry has often stated that his basic goal is to improve the general average quality of cut being produced and marketed. My goal is totally different, it is to cut for the highest cut-quality possible, and I do not care in any way about the average quality available.
This difference in goals creates regular disagreements. What Garry states, having in mind the average cut-quality, might not be true, having in mind the top-quality.
Also, there is the different point-of-view of a cutter compared to a retailer. When it concerns durability-issues for instance, a retailer has much more experience in this than a cutter. And for some aspects, we simply have a different vocabulary. All this also leads to regular disagreements.
Finally, some disagreement also comes from different experiences. Garry''s experience is huge, but I think that it is geared somewhat too much towards above-average quality. At the absolute top-level, my experience however trumps his. for instance, I think that Garry has seen two Infinity-princess-cuts in his lifetime. Not having this experience has an effect on his opinions, and is a cause for our regular disagreement.
All this disagreement however does not mean that we do not respect eachother. The mutual respect is huge, and as Garry said, we regularly continue our discussions in private, where we both learn. And I am already looking forward to JCK in Vegas again (10 days from now) where we will probably discuss until the early hours.
Live long,
Imdanny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 6,186
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 23,295
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 23,295
The realists always want to shoot down the dreamersDate: 5/17/2009 7:23:32 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Date: 5/15/2009 9:46:28 PM
Author: Gypsy
It really was. Garry, is it just me or do you have some sort of vendetta against Brian and towards Paul from Infinity too (something I''ve noticed from your recent posts). Both of whom are the only ''real'' diamond cutters who post on here. Do you not like cutters or is it something personal? I''d really like to know.
I just read this, and while it is a threadjack, I cannot let this pass by without a reaction.
When it comes down to disagreements, I generally feel that I am the one attacking Garry''s points-of-view, while I do not feel that he is really attacking mine. As such, from my point-of-view, there is definitely no vendetta of Garry versus myself. I must say that I sometimes feel sorry when I disagree with Garry again, since it sometimes seems to be very regular and repetitive, and I fear that some will interpret it as a vendetta of myself against Garry.
The truth is that we have very high respect for eachother, while having a lot of agreements in general and a lot of disagreements in detail. Part of this is because of different goals. Garry has often stated that his basic goal is to improve the general average quality of cut being produced and marketed. My goal is totally different, it is to cut for the highest cut-quality possible, and I do not care in any way about the average quality available.
This difference in goals creates regular disagreements. What Garry states, having in mind the average cut-quality, might not be true, having in mind the top-quality.
Also, there is the different point-of-view of a cutter compared to a retailer. When it concerns durability-issues for instance, a retailer has much more experience in this than a cutter. And for some aspects, we simply have a different vocabulary. All this also leads to regular disagreements.
Finally, some disagreement also comes from different experiences. Garry''s experience is huge, but I think that it is geared somewhat too much towards above-average quality. At the absolute top-level, my experience however trumps his. for instance, I think that Garry has seen two Infinity-princess-cuts in his lifetime. Not having this experience has an effect on his opinions, and is a cause for our regular disagreement.
All this disagreement however does not mean that we do not respect eachother. The mutual respect is huge, and as Garry said, we regularly continue our discussions in private, where we both learn. And I am already looking forward to JCK in Vegas again (10 days from now) where we will probably discuss until the early hours.
Live long,
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 23,295
That sounded better in my head than it did in print, let me explain...
Anyone who knows Garry knows he is a head in the sky dreamer and a very successful one that has made several of his dreams come true.
Paul on the other hand is much more practical and grounded.
It is not so much as liking/disliking one another as a clash of life views.
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 10,448
ILoveDiamondsToo
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- May 17, 2009
- Messages
- 50
ILoveDiamondsToo
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- May 17, 2009
- Messages
- 50
ILoveDiamondsToo
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- May 17, 2009
- Messages
- 50
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 10,448
Not a recommendation, or the opposite, but to me, it looks pretty nice.
I'm in the camp of loving many different imperfect stones.
Twining wisps, as a rule, pose no problem to me.
In many cases they are quite benign.
I have seen cases where they were extreme, and actually did impact the brilliance- although never in a stone GIA or AGS graded SI2 or better.
I'm in the camp of loving many different imperfect stones.
Twining wisps, as a rule, pose no problem to me.
In many cases they are quite benign.
I have seen cases where they were extreme, and actually did impact the brilliance- although never in a stone GIA or AGS graded SI2 or better.
ILoveDiamondsToo
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- May 17, 2009
- Messages
- 50
elle_chris
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2004
- Messages
- 3,544
After reading this site for the last few years and trying to learn as much as i possibly can about stones, all I want to add is this- When you get down to an SI2 clarity there's always going to be something, or someone, that's going to say it MAY effect the brilliance in negative way.
1. Clouds can cause loss of brilliance, 2. Feathers can have durability issues, 3. Black inclusions will be eye visable. 4 Clouds and graining a big no no, and now 5. Twining wisps can reduce light performance.
It's an SI2. There will be inclusions and chances are they will have at least some of the above.
I have never, ever seen a professional come here and say it's a safe choice. My opinion is either buy from a trusted vendor, or/and have it appraised by a trusted appraiser. That's really the only way you'll be able to set your mind at ease.
Btw, the pic is obviously an H&A stone so I'm thinking it's in house from one of these vendors. If they're saying there aren't any problems, I'd trust them and have it shipped to appraiser of my choice.
1. Clouds can cause loss of brilliance, 2. Feathers can have durability issues, 3. Black inclusions will be eye visable. 4 Clouds and graining a big no no, and now 5. Twining wisps can reduce light performance.
It's an SI2. There will be inclusions and chances are they will have at least some of the above.
I have never, ever seen a professional come here and say it's a safe choice. My opinion is either buy from a trusted vendor, or/and have it appraised by a trusted appraiser. That's really the only way you'll be able to set your mind at ease.
Btw, the pic is obviously an H&A stone so I'm thinking it's in house from one of these vendors. If they're saying there aren't any problems, I'd trust them and have it shipped to appraiser of my choice.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2004
- Messages
- 5,096
The problem is..., the lab''s plots dont accurately tell the story...
We can never realy be certain we know based on the plot if the wisps are fine light colored (white/ish) or dark...
They can sometimes seem white and at a certain tilt position turn dark.
These types of inclusions should be judged on a stone per stone basis as the wisp usually scattered over a significant area of the face appearance.
Next it depends on many factors which can affect the visual. One important factor is the depth of these wisps..., in nature wisps are scattered on one level of depth within the Diamond..., but once polished, the cutter make the rules of position.
Obviously..., the closer to the culet area..., the more reflections it will show.
As far a durability..., I personally believe the knot (wisp) area is one of the most durable area''s in the Diamond substance as far as inclusion types.
I hope I sound clear and not too confusing...
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 23,295
I would agree that si is where you start making compromises for the money you save.
But as long as those compromises are not eye visible and have no eye visible impact on the light return or durability issues they are excellent values.
A trusted and knowledgeable vendor used to dealing with high performance diamonds is critical.
Imdanny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 6,186
elle_chris
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2004
- Messages
- 3,544
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
- Messages
- 19,185
David GIA acknowledges SI1 and down has potential reduction in light performance. They have published this.
Well written DiaGemDate: 5/17/2009 6:38:34 PM
Author: DiaGem
The problem is..., the lab''s plots dont accurately tell the story...
We can never realy be certain we know based on the plot if the wisps are fine light colored (white/ish) or dark...
They can sometimes seem white and at a certain tilt position turn dark.
These types of inclusions should be judged on a stone per stone basis as the wisp usually scattered over a significant area of the face appearance.
Next it depends on many factors which can affect the visual. One important factor is the depth of these wisps..., in nature wisps are scattered on one level of depth within the Diamond..., but once polished, the cutter make the rules of position.
Obviously..., the closer to the culet area..., the more reflections it will show.
As far a durability..., I personally believe the knot (wisp) area is one of the most durable area''s in the Diamond substance as far as inclusion types.
I hope I sound clear and not too confusing...
adak
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2009
- Messages
- 56
Here''s mine:
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 5.93 - 5.98 x 3.67 mm
Carat Weight: 0.80 carat
Color Grade: G
Clarity Grade: SI1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Proportions:
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 56%
Crown Angle: 34.5°
Crown Height: 15.0%
Pavilion Angle: 40.6°
Pavilion Depth: 43.0%
Star length: 50%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted (4.0%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None
Clarity Characteristics:
Twinning Wisp
Brilliance? Check. Fire? Check. Scintillation? Check. I am by far from an expert, but would buy it again in a heartbeat.
Round Brilliant
Measurements: 5.93 - 5.98 x 3.67 mm
Carat Weight: 0.80 carat
Color Grade: G
Clarity Grade: SI1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Proportions:
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 56%
Crown Angle: 34.5°
Crown Height: 15.0%
Pavilion Angle: 40.6°
Pavilion Depth: 43.0%
Star length: 50%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Medium to Slightly Thick, Faceted (4.0%)
Culet: None
Finish:
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None
Clarity Characteristics:
Twinning Wisp
Brilliance? Check. Fire? Check. Scintillation? Check. I am by far from an expert, but would buy it again in a heartbeat.
Imdanny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 6,186
- Status
How Are Diamonds Made? Natural vs Lab-Created Explained
How Are Diamonds Made? Natural vs Lab-Created Explained - 08/05
Top Wedding Ring Brands for Every Style and Budget
Top Wedding Ring Brands for Every Style and Budget - 08/05
Where to Buy Lab Grown Diamonds: Best Places Compared
Where to Buy Lab Grown Diamonds: Best Places Compared - 08/05
300x240.png)