Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Gemsny

[maddysidekick]

Hi everyone,
My husband is buying me a ring since I never got an engagement ring 3 years ago.
I've decided I want a ruby, so we got one from Gemsny. This was all before I discovered pricescope.
Went and picked out the gem, fell in love with it. Because it's heat treated it doesn't have GIA cert - they only do them there for untreated. It's about 1.62 ct -excellent brilliance, and very very pretty!

I've read that I shouldn't think much of the UGL cert - which is what the provide. Should I try and get them to give me some other type of certification?

They are also making the ring for me. I originally was going to do solitaire in platinum, hammered matte finish. But now I'm considering getting some small diamonds on the sides. I get the CAD drawings tomorrow.

Anyone have experience with Gemsny?

Thanks in advance

 

[pregcurious]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

For rubies, the general consensus is to send it to AGL in New York to determine treatment, including BE dispersion. Rubies are often treated not just with heat, but also with BE dispersion, flux treatment, etc.

You can do a search for "ruby treatments" on PS to find threads about this.

There is a good article about lead filling here:
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/lead-glass-ruby-nightmare-keeps-giving
You ruby may be fine, but I would get it checked by AGL.

 

[maddysidekick]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

thanks for your advice pregcurious!!

 

[pregcurious]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

There's also one lady who just had a yellow sapphire ring made my Gemsny. You can do a search for them to read other posters' reviews.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

GIA not doing reports on heated rubies doesn't sound right to me. I am pretty sure they do - in fact, one of the main reasons to get a report on corundum is to check for treatments (heat, flux, BE, etc).

GIA itself states that detecting treatments is one of the reasons for a report: http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/colored-stones/colored-stone-reports/index.html

 

[pregcurious]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

GIA not doing reports on heated rubies doesn't sound right to me. I am pretty sure they do - in fact, one of the main reasons to get a report on corundum is to check for treatments (heat, flux, BE, etc).

GIA itself states that detecting treatments is one of the reasons for a report: http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/colored-stones/colored-stone-reports/index.html

It's not clear if the OP meant that Gemsny does not provide GIA reports for heated stones, or if Gemsny is claiming what you wrote about GIA. At best, I think Gemsny does not seem to understand that there are much worse treatments than heat. I would be fine with a heated stone, but not with BE or other treatments. At worst, Gemsny is saying that GIA does not do reports on heated rubies. This is all dependent on the word of the OP.

 

[maddysidekick]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Hi, I did read about that lady's yellow sapphire - which looked and turned out really nice!
I tried to post on that thread to hear her experience, but I haven't heard back.

Also - to clarify: Gemsny just said - they don't do GIA reports on heat treated rubies.
I am also okay with heat treatment but not ok with the other treatments including BE.

-syh

 

[LD]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Hi, I did read about that lady's yellow sapphire - which looked and turned out really nice!
I tried to post on that thread to hear her experience, but I haven't heard back.

Also - to clarify: Gemsny just said - they don't do GIA reports on heat treated rubies.
I am also okay with heat treatment but not ok with the other treatments including BE.

-syh

I REALLY don't understand this! How can Gemsny KNOW whether a Ruby has been heated or not and therefore whether to send it to GIA? Sounds very strange. You either send gems to GIA or AGL if you want to know about treatments! BTW I agree with previous posters that AGL is the best report for a Ruby.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Hi, I did read about that lady's yellow sapphire - which looked and turned out really nice!
I tried to post on that thread to hear her experience, but I haven't heard back.

Also - to clarify: Gemsny just said - they don't do GIA reports on heat treated rubies.
I am also okay with heat treatment but not ok with the other treatments including BE.

-syh

I REALLY don't understand this! How can Gemsny KNOW whether a Ruby has been heated or not and therefore whether to send it to GIA? Sounds very strange. You either send gems to GIA or AGL if you want to know about treatments! BTW I agree with previous posters that AGL is the best report for a Ruby.

If they are gemmologists then it's actually quite easy. There are changes to inclusions that differ depending on the type of heat used. Things like lead-glass filling are very easy to spot as well once you know what to look for. The supply chain will also let them know if the stones are heated or not.

They will be sending the unheated so as to get them checked and to get the report that then allows them to charge the appropriate premium, plus give the buyer the peace of mind.

Since most people don't care about reports or if the stone is heated or not, it probably makes more business sense to just send stones off when people actually ask for the report rather than having to add the report costs onto the price of the stone.

 

[T L]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Since most people don't care about reports or if the stone is heated or not, it probably makes more business sense to just send stones off when people actually ask for the report rather than having to add the report costs onto the price of the stone.

Isn't that just sad? That's why so many jewelers take advantage of the lack of knowledge of the average consumer when it comes to gems and jewelry.

 

[maddysidekick]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Isn't that just sad? That's why so many jewelers take advantage of the lack of knowledge of the average consumer when it comes to gems and jewelry.

- I don't know that they are trying to deceive buyers so much as - to avoid the added the extra cost to actually prove it.

This is the last response from the guy I've been dealing with at gemsny:

Hi,

Actually I wish I had known you need an AGL/GIA cert, we only keep these for untreated gemstones.

I actually gave the stone at a discounted price at $3100, and the price is actually $4000 for the stone.

Honestly, it is not much of interest to us if we need to wait for a month for GIA/AGL when we know we can sell the stone for more during the holiday time and we are running very low on ruby rounds anyway.

I think it is best if you want GIA/AGL to go with an allready certified ruby from GIA that we have in our inventory.
I don't mind if you would like to come in to see what we have to offer for allready certified rubies.

Thanks,

These are the specs on the stone btw:

Color- Pigeon Blood Red
Clarity- VVS1
Brilliance- Excellent
Treatment- Heated

I've learned from this forum - that the term "pigeon blood red" makes people cringe...! But I will say - that was a very beautiful stone that we saw. However, I don't think I will have piece of mind without having the AGL cert - so I guess I will have to pick another stone...

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

If you were selling something to make a living, you had the knowledge and qualifications to be pretty darn sure it was what it said on the tin, then would you invest $100+ on every stone you bought when 19/20 or more customers have no interest one way or the other? If you have 200 stones in your inventory then you're asking for a $20k investment on the part of the vendor which isn't really worthwhile.

That $100 then has to be added to the purchase price making your stone potentially much more expensive than the next persons. What happens if the person buying the stone doesn't like the lab you have selected? A good percentage of gem dealers customers are people in the trade, who may well also be qualified enough to know if a stone is heated or not and ID other treatments and definitely don't want to fork out for a report.

Those who are interested in having a report will ask and it can be arranged at that point. Just because a stone doesn't have a piece of paper with it doesn't mean that it isn't exactly what the vendor says it is. I agree that with very expensive stones or those that are supposedly unheated then it's a great idea to get a good report for piece of mind, confirmation and insurance purposes, but I wouldn't personally get one on any heated stone under $2k - and that was before I qualified as a gemmologist.

It's not really sad, just basic economics.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Isn't that just sad? That's why so many jewelers take advantage of the lack of knowledge of the average consumer when it comes to gems and jewelry.

- I don't know that they are trying to deceive buyers so much as - to avoid the added the extra cost to actually prove it.

This is the last response from the guy I've been dealing with at gemsny:

Hi,

Actually I wish I had known you need an AGL/GIA cert, we only keep these for untreated gemstones.

I actually gave the stone at a discounted price at $3100, and the price is actually $4000 for the stone.

Honestly, it is not much of interest to us if we need to wait for a month for GIA/AGL when we know we can sell the stone for more during the holiday time and we are running very low on ruby rounds anyway.

I think it is best if you want GIA/AGL to go with an allready certified ruby from GIA that we have in our inventory.
I don't mind if you would like to come in to see what we have to offer for allready certified rubies.

Thanks,

These are the specs on the stone btw:

Color- Pigeon Blood Red
Clarity- VVS1
Brilliance- Excellent
Treatment- Heated

I've learned from this forum - that the term "pigeon blood red" makes people cringe...! But I will say - that was a very beautiful stone that we saw. However, I don't think I will have piece of mind without having the AGL cert - so I guess I will have to pick another stone...

If you've seen the stone and you really love it, then I would possibly ask if you can buy the stone, send it to AGL for a report yourself and if it doesn't come back as heat only then they will refund you. I don't see why there would be a problem with that scenario.

Also, you only need a short report from AGL - unless they find signs of high heat. Beryllium diffusion requires the stone to be heated to pretty much its melting point so that the beryllium atoms can diffuse into the crystal lattice. Doing this really alters the inclusions within the stone leaving tell-tale traces.

That price, that size, it being a round and you loving it are a rare combination and I would think seriously before abandoning it.

ETA: edited for grammar...

 

[maddysidekick]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Thanks so much for your advice Pandora,

I guess that could be a good litmus test - because, there supposedly isn't anything else done to the gem - then it should be fine - and they should be ok with that - I'll let you know how it goes.

Do you have a ballpark of how much a short AGL cert would cost me?

All of this is helping me get closer to my ring...!!!

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Thanks so much for your advice Pandora,

I guess that could be a good litmus test - because, there supposedly isn't anything else done to the gem - then it should be fine - and they should be ok with that - I'll let you know how it goes.

Do you have a ballpark of how much a short AGL cert would cost me?

All of this is helping me get closer to my ring...!!!

http://www.aglgemlab.com/services/Rates.aspx

$55 for the GemBrief. (they can do it in 48 hours if you pay double! )

For total peace of mind I would include a note to say that if they detect high heat or other evidence that might suggest Be diffusion to go ahead and do LA-ICP-MS (a test that vapourises tiny points and analyses the vapour to detect light elements - there are other similar tests called LIBS and SIMS, but LA-ICP-MS is the most reliable and the one I would want to use if there were any doubts).

Things like Pb-glass filling they can pick up with a x10 loupe, and certainly with a microscope.

 

[T L]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Thanks so much for your advice Pandora,

I guess that could be a good litmus test - because, there supposedly isn't anything else done to the gem - then it should be fine - and they should be ok with that - I'll let you know how it goes.

Do you have a ballpark of how much a short AGL cert would cost me?

All of this is helping me get closer to my ring...!!!

http://www.aglgemlab.com/services/Rates.aspx

$55 for the GemBrief. (they can do it in 48 hours if you pay double! )

For total peace of mind I would include a note to say that if they detect high heat or other evidence that might suggest Be diffusion to go ahead and do LA-ICP-MS (a test that vapourises tiny points and analyses the vapour to detect light elements - there are other similar tests called LIBS and SIMS, but LA-ICP-MS is the most reliable and the one I would want to use if there were any doubts).

Things like Pb-glass filling they can pick up with a x10 loupe, and certainly with a microscope.

That's $55 + s&h and insurance (which is advised), so you could potentially add another $15 to $30 to that price. I just sent a sapphire to AGL, and asked them (in my enclosed submission letter) to test the sapphire with an LA-ICP-MS if required, and to notify me of the additional charge. Last time I asked, it was $100 extra.

There's also the higher priced "prestige" reports, but unless you are getting an investment piece, I think the gem brief will suffice. If you have any questions about submission, call them. They're extremely friendly and accomodating. I called them today to make sure they got my stone, and they told me they did. They're closed Thurs and Friday this week though due to the holiday.

 

[maddysidekick]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Thanks for your advice TL and Pandora - I will post on the results of what happens...

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Sorry for jumping the gun - yes, I misread the original post. I had also heard something very similar to my interpretation that morning (aka, it is impossible to test for BE and the labs are scamming you).

You got some excellent advice on how to proceed!

 

[maddysidekick]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Hi all,

So this is the latest response from the jeweler:

Hi,
I honestly don't want to get involved in ruby being certified from another lab. We already have a certificate on the ruby from UGL lab, which is a reputable lab. If you would like to have the stone GIA/AGL certed then better you choose from hundred of rubies we have which already have this certificate.
If you still insist then you can pay us the entire amount for the ruby and you have 30days to return it as we have a 30days returns policy as of today's date. We are not basing our sale on some other lab or some other appraisal company. Also we will not be responsible for any fees you incur from these labs/appraisal houses regardless of what grading and valuation they provide.
The reason we don't want to get involved in this is because we have seen so many times with labs that if we submit something to one lab they will provide certain grades and we send to another lab and they will provide another.
We want to keep things very simple. Two options you have:
1. You purchase a ruby from us which only is certified by GIA/AGL (our recommendation).
2. You purchase the ruby like everybody else does and you have 30days to return it. We want to again make it clear that we are not making the sale based on any other lab. We already have a certificate from UGL. You are welcome to take it to whoever you like and send it to which ever lab, if you are not satisfied in 30days you can return it back. Again, we are not going to be responsible for any fees you incur regardless of which lab you take it to and what grading they provide.

I'm going to assume that you are all going to agree with me to go ahead with getting the AGL report - I think I've been told already that the UGL report - is not very accredited?
We may just go in and look at their GIA/AGL certified collection - as it is their recommendation, and perhaps we may find something suitable...the problem is - those are all untreated, and therefore not as brilliant as the heat treated - which is why we really liked the stone that we had chosen.

Would love to hear some other thoughts...

 

[pokerface]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

I would not purchase a stone from this jeweler. He is saying that he will not stand behind his product as advertised. If you promise to purchase the stone if it comes back as heat only, he has nothing to lose. You should not be incurring the risk of losing money because of possibly false advertising. If this is how he wants to run his business, I would definitely take my money elsewhere.

 

[chloeishere]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

I would tend to agree with pokerface. I personally don't care for the tone or implication of that email at all, and it would make me less trusting of the vendor that they are being so rude about it (I haven't cared for any of the emails I've read from them so far. I understand that it's a business, but I consider it bad customer service and rude in my opinion, to say that if you want a GIA report, someone else would probably buy the stone and not require it, so they would rather sell the stone to a less discerning customer because it's easier. WHAT? You prefer customers who don't understand what they are purchasing? That really rubs me the wrong way).

It's a business, yes, and money is important, but being rude to a potential customer who wants to be certain that they are getting what they paid for, is... well, is not very attractive in a vendor, to me.

That said, if you really love the ruby, and don't think you will ever find another one you like as much, it sounds like 30 days should be enough time to get the certificate and send it back if it's not as described. I guess. As long as nothing goes wrong.

$3100 is NOT chump change, regardless of whether the vendor "considers" the stone worth $4000 (this is irrelevant to the discussion, in my opinion, and I don't think the vendor should have mentioned it). That is a lot of money, and it would be even more if their report is not correct, and it turns out the stone has been lead filled (hopefully, this is unlikely) or beryllium diffused, and worth only a tiny fraction of that amount in reality.

Like I said, the vendor's attitude thus far really rubs me the wrong way, and I would choose to go elsewhere. But, it's your decision, and as long as you don't mind being out the money for the report/ shipping/ etc. if it turns out the stone is NOT as described, I think you could get the stone checked within the return time frame.

 

[T L]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Hi all,

So this is the latest response from the jeweler:

Hi,
I honestly don't want to get involved in ruby being certified from another lab. We already have a certificate on the ruby from UGL lab, which is a reputable lab. If you would like to have the stone GIA/AGL certed then better you choose from hundred of rubies we have which already have this certificate.
If you still insist then you can pay us the entire amount for the ruby and you have 30days to return it as we have a 30days returns policy as of today's date. We are not basing our sale on some other lab or some other appraisal company. Also we will not be responsible for any fees you incur from these labs/appraisal houses regardless of what grading and valuation they provide.
The reason we don't want to get involved in this is because we have seen so many times with labs that if we submit something to one lab they will provide certain grades and we send to another lab and they will provide another.
We want to keep things very simple. Two options you have:
1. You purchase a ruby from us which only is certified by GIA/AGL (our recommendation).
2. You purchase the ruby like everybody else does and you have 30days to return it. We want to again make it clear that we are not making the sale based on any other lab. We already have a certificate from UGL. You are welcome to take it to whoever you like and send it to which ever lab, if you are not satisfied in 30days you can return it back. Again, we are not going to be responsible for any fees you incur regardless of which lab you take it to and what grading they provide.

I'm going to assume that you are all going to agree with me to go ahead with getting the AGL report - I think I've been told already that the UGL report - is not very accredited?
We may just go in and look at their GIA/AGL certified collection - as it is their recommendation, and perhaps we may find something suitable...the problem is - those are all untreated, and therefore not as brilliant as the heat treated - which is why we really liked the stone that we had chosen.

Would love to hear some other thoughts...

I would not buy an expensive ruby without an AGL, GIA or GRS report. UGL doesn't test for all treatments like diffusion, and they have over inflated appraisals. UGL to me, caters to the vendor, not the customer. GIA and AGL do not. Honestly, I don't blame vendors for going with UGL, they are very generous in their grading reports.

Serious collectors and gem afficionados know their lab reports, and AGL, GIA and GRS are the premier labs, with AGL, IMHO, being the top tier one for colored gems. UGL is not respected.

Just found this link.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ugl-reports.40224/

 

[Pandora II]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Hmm, I'm not keen on that email at all. Didn't care for the first, but that is quite something.

I checked the websites of a load of vendors that I have worked with both overseas and here in the UK and most state on their sites that they are happy to submit stones to labs at the request of a customer. Most are also only too happy to find a customer who has more interest than 'oooh, it's a pretty red stone'.

Gemsny obviously have more customers than they can handle, if they can discourage a customer so easily... which is very impressive given the overall state of the world economy.

My guess is that they have slightly underpriced the ruby, therefore once you have gone back asking about reports they see a) the chance to get that stone back on the market at a higher price and b) the chance to convince you that unheated + a GIA/AGL report is the route for you to take and in doing so get you to purchase a more expensive stone.

Since AGL can turn a stone around in 48 hours if necessary, the whole time thing doesn't rub with me at all.

As far as labs having different grades... well, if this was a diamond I would agree. Labs will often give different colour and clarity grades depending on who is eyeballing the stone and what the individual lab parameters are. But, this is a coloured stone and all the lab is doing is checking that it is only heated. So I really don't get what the issue is.

You're also proposing to send the stone to AGL - who they propose as a lab they trust and recommend - not some fly-by-night operation no-one had ever heard of.

For me the tone as well as the content of the emails is a big turn-off.

But, there is also no point in cutting off your nose to spite your face. Finding a really nice ruby that isn't stuffed full of Pb-glass is not an easy task these days, heated or unheated, and so you need to consider if you are better to go with this stone even if you don't think much of the vendor's attitude...

 

[maddysidekick]

Re: Would love some help from PS peeps re: ruby ring from Ge

Thank you all for your input!
I definitely feel more knowledgeable now and feel a great sense of community from this forum.
I really appreciate how you've gone into depth with your opinions.

As you all know, email communication can be misconstrued - and I feel like that was the case here.
The jeweler we have been dealing with is actually quite pleasant, knowledgeable and accommodating in person.
They don't really do as much in -person interaction, they do mostly wholesale and/or working with jewelers directly.

We went back there today - decided to look at some natural/untreated stones, and if we didn't like anything better than the heat treated one we had originally picked out, we were going to buy it, take it to AGL (who is right around the corner from the jeweler)
and have it tested. (AGL was very nice btw, in my communication with them - and the current standard turnaround is 12 days, but closed Thurs and Fri as TL had mentioned).

We looked at at least 10 stones and started to get buzz headed from trying to compare!! In the end, we switched it up with an oval instead of a round, but the clarity and the red were so beautiful - I knew I'd love looking at this one day in and day out!
It's also a natural ruby with no treatments, and comes with a GIA certificate, so whew!
I did see an amazing round - but at 2C - it most definitely cost above what we were looking for, flawless though!!

Waiting for a new CAD rendering, and the jeweler is also going to have it set - so that it will accentuate curve/round...curious to see how that will turn out..

Anyways, I'm pretty happy now - hopefully I can post something very nice soon!