Would a cushion appear to have more fire than a round?

[beaujolais]

I do think you have it right there.

It might just be one that you havent considered yet. >

Absolutely. Plan to. Thanks so very much, again.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 6:45:50 PM
Author: sonomacounty
<I think saying your looking for a different look would be a better way of putting it than more fire.>

I do think you have it right there.

<If you can visit Jon and look at all the different cuts of diamonds he offers and see what speaks too you.
It might just be one that you havent considered yet. >

Absolutely. Plan to. Thanks so very much, again.

kicken
be sure and let us know how it goes and what you find :}

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 4:35:08 PM
Author: DiaGem
There are just tooooo many variants out there..., especially when it comes to cushions...
Its basically a Cushion jungle out there...

First..., find out the appearance you prefer..., then the shape..., the length x width ratio, depth.
Then you can go into the details..., like table preference, faceting size and positions and ratio''s, crown height, lgf''s, culets and position of culet reflections...

more? girdle thickness..., star lenghts, pavilion and crown alignments..., culet shape..., rounded shoulders or pointy ones..., shallow crown on deep pavilion..., high crown on shallow pavilions..., etc... etc...

Like I said, toooo many variants!!!

And everybody likes his/hers steak done differently...

mixed cut please, round.
16 fold x 3 step cut on top and RB bottom 20% crown height 45% table :}

 

[Imdanny]

[moment of levity] I''m going to let WF do my thinking for me. [/moment of levity]

 

[Rhino]

Greetings gemgirl,

It''s a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Just some questions as I read your post. I would not argue your point about the round because I agree (as I believe most here would as well). All points being equi-distant from the center etc.

What about perfectly symmetrical Squares? Cushions?

What tool/science/technology are you utilizing to examine diamonds with to cause you to arrive at your conclusions? Curious.

Kind regards,

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/9/2008 2:44:29 PM
Author: strmrdr
the RB cut isn''t perfect there are always trade off and balance points between brightness, fire and scint that is a part of any RB design/grade/group/study/type.
That is why the BIC, TIC and FIC exist.

Just curious strm. Do you believe one would have to trade brightness to get more fire or vice versa? Do you believe a round diamond can have the best of both optical properites?

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/9/2008 11:05:33 AM
Author: gemgirl

Date: 3/9/2008 10:36:16 AM
Author: sonomacounty
<Have you checked out the cushion vids on GOG? These should give you a good idea of how thw cushions perform. >

Yes, extensively. But, I''m looking for your opinions, in words, if a cushion appears to give more fire than a round.

Regarding cut, compare fire if both the round and cushion are equally excellently cut.

Thanks.

If my memory is correct from my GIA studies, no shape will have more brilliance (reflected white light), fire (color dispersion) and scintillation (the combination of both brilliance and fire) than an ideally cut round brilliant.

Hi gemgirl,

I can show you squares both from a technological standpoint, in a critical examination of light return/leakage, and digital optical testing of brightness, contrast, fire and sparkle and optical symmetry that rival the rarest rounds. More importantly the results of these critical exams can be seen in a practical observation of the optical characteristics of brightness & patterned scintillation as well as fire and sparkle scintillation. Considering how old the trade is however these are fairly recent developments that have only come about in the past few years.

Kind regards,

 

[Rhino]

Hey DiaGem,

Date: 3/9/2008 4:35:08 PM
Author: DiaGem
There are just tooooo many variants out there..., especially when it comes to cushions...
Its basically a Cushion jungle out there...

Tell me about it. This past week was an interesting experience.

First..., find out the appearance you prefer..., then the shape..., the length x width ratio, depth.
Then you can go into the details..., like table preference, faceting size and positions and ratio''s, crown height, lgf''s, culets and position of culet reflections...

more? girdle thickness..., star lenghts, pavilion and crown alignments..., culet shape..., rounded shoulders or pointy ones..., shallow crown on deep pavilion..., high crown on shallow pavilions..., etc... etc...

Like I said, toooo many variants!!!

And everybody likes his/hers steak done differently...

Part/parcel of the problem is all of these variants are all but impossible to determine via a lab Report. Even the facet diagrams don''t necessarily depict the actual facet layout of the diamond being examined. It would really help if manufactuers would start using Sarin''s and generating models. I''ll call in what appears to be great polish/symmetry combined with great table/total depth ratios only to get ... well ... not quite what I expected.

Also just becuase you get a winner cushion from a certain factory one time doesn''t guarantee the next will be as great. Yes its jungle out there all right.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 8:22:38 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 3/9/2008 2:44:29 PM
Author: strmrdr
the RB cut isn''t perfect there are always trade off and balance points between brightness, fire and scint that is a part of any RB design/grade/group/study/type.
That is why the BIC, TIC and FIC exist.

Just curious strm. Do you believe one would have to trade brightness to get more fire or vice versa? Do you believe a round diamond can have the best of both optical properites?

First define the problem: are we talking the max amount in optimal conditions are are we talking about averages over multiple lighting conditions?
There is always a trade off over multiple lighting conditions.
it can have a balance but not the best of both in the same stone over multiple lighting conditions.

lets look at the characteristics that tip it towards more often showing white light return:
lower crown angles
larger tables
long lgf%
painting in some cases
less contrast
shallower upper girdle angles

Lets look at what maximises fire:
short lgf% or high crowns (not both in the same stone)
mid-range tables with short lgf%, small tables with high crowns
steeper upper girdle angles

The picture of the model I posted above shows that point, bright as all get out but would have little fire.

btw before DC cut designer crashed and lost 1.5 hours of work I had a mixed step cut designed that had higher brightness than the standard tic RB model.

You can strike a balance to get a high amount of each under optimal conditions for that return type but a specialty stone tuned too that condition will still win.

 

[strmrdr]

just thought of a simple way too put it...
Everyone agrees that there are different personalities of ideal cut diamonds with different looks.
If every ideal cut RB was the ultimate in all areas of performance that would not be the case :}

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/9/2008 1:14:18 PM
Author: strmrdr
sig and nickname is explained here, some of the other info there is out of date..:
http://www.pricescope.com/forum/who-s-who/hmmmmm-who-am-i-today-t10083.html

To Strmrdr -

I was reading through this thread and took the link to your bio. I see that you love storms, particularly tornadoes. Tell ya what, why don''t we switch houses from say...NOW...until...oh....July-ish.

I admit they''re fascinatinng, and I respect them, a LOT, but I sure as heck don''t love them.

And yes, from that you may infer that I live in one of those fun places like Oklahoma City. I escaped unscathed from May 3, 1999, but I knew too many who didn''t. Tornadoes? I just cringe every spring. And our meteorolgists here have all lost their minds since then. I''ve lived here pretty much forever, and they never used to do this, but NOW, they pre-empt every show on every local station for all blinkin'' night coverage like "OMG!!! There''s a raindrop in McCurtain county....! Val is out there now!!!" (one of the premier chasers on a local station). And nowadays if there is a circulation - not a tornado on the ground mind you - just a hook echo, on say, the eastern edge of Oklahoma county, they blow the sirens EVERY FREAKING WHERE in the whole blinkin'' county. Oklahoma county is HUUUGE - about 700+ sq miles, and they get people all stressed out when the tornado is ridiculously far away. In their zeal for ratings, they''ve all decided to play "Wolf". Nope, tornadoes are only good for people don''t have to live with them as an ever-present reality.

I''m afraid I view them mostly as a PITA.

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/9/2008 7:41:14 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/9/2008 4:35:08 PM
Author: DiaGem
There are just tooooo many variants out there..., especially when it comes to cushions...
Its basically a Cushion jungle out there...

First..., find out the appearance you prefer..., then the shape..., the length x width ratio, depth.
Then you can go into the details..., like table preference, faceting size and positions and ratio''s, crown height, lgf''s, culets and position of culet reflections...

more? girdle thickness..., star lenghts, pavilion and crown alignments..., culet shape..., rounded shoulders or pointy ones..., shallow crown on deep pavilion..., high crown on shallow pavilions..., etc... etc...

Like I said, toooo many variants!!!

And everybody likes his/hers steak done differently...

mixed cut please, round.
16 fold x 3 step cut on top and RB bottom 20% crown height 45% table :}

Is that an order????

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/9/2008 4:35:08 PM
Author: DiaGem
There are just tooooo many variants out there..., especially when it comes to cushions...
Its basically a Cushion jungle out there...

First..., find out the appearance you prefer..., then the shape..., the length x width ratio, depth.
Then you can go into the details..., like table preference, faceting size and positions and ratio''s, crown height, lgf''s, culets and position of culet reflections...

more? girdle thickness..., star lenghts, pavilion and crown alignments..., culet shape..., rounded shoulders or pointy ones..., shallow crown on deep pavilion..., high crown on shallow pavilions..., etc... etc...

Like I said, toooo many variants!!!

And everybody likes his/hers steak done differently...

I am SO using that, thanks DiaGem!!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/9/2008 8:47:36 PM
Author: Rhino
Hey DiaGem,

Date: 3/9/2008 4:35:08 PM
Author: DiaGem
There are just tooooo many variants out there..., especially when it comes to cushions...
Its basically a Cushion jungle out there...

Tell me about it. This past week was an interesting experience.

First..., find out the appearance you prefer..., then the shape..., the length x width ratio, depth.
Then you can go into the details..., like table preference, faceting size and positions and ratio''s, crown height, lgf''s, culets and position of culet reflections...

more? girdle thickness..., star lenghts, pavilion and crown alignments..., culet shape..., rounded shoulders or pointy ones..., shallow crown on deep pavilion..., high crown on shallow pavilions..., etc... etc...

Like I said, toooo many variants!!!

And everybody likes his/hers steak done differently...

Part/parcel of the problem is all of these variants are all but impossible to determine via a lab Report. Even the facet diagrams don''t necessarily depict the actual facet layout of the diamond being examined. It would really help if manufactuers would start using Sarin''s and generating models. I''ll call in what appears to be great polish/symmetry combined with great table/total depth ratios only to get ... well ... not quite what I expected.

Also just becuase you get a winner cushion from a certain factory one time doesn''t guarantee the next will be as great. Yes its jungle out there all right.

One of my continuous fights with GIA et al. is the fact which they dont even try to match a cushion''s realistic faceting arrangements to the plot/sketch used to ID the Diamond on their report!

Excuse my language...., but it really pisses the sh_t out of me! Everything else they report on is based on actual or nano-differences..., except the sketch..., go figure why these Lab''s are lazy on this aspect!!!

I must admit though that GIA has started to listen more to our needs..., They have been issuing plots based on my requests and proof of exact faceting arrangements..., but every time I submit a special-cut stone..., I have to remind them..., and a few times it ends by my resubmitting for correction..., another time consuming factor in my chain of events.

As per my experience..., even Sarin cant identify the various faceting arrangements used in the cushion jungle...

Jon..., you have to understand, a lot of manufacturers use the cushion option "as a last resort" when their plans for other shapes dont fall into their economic calculations! (Example: if we cant finish a two carat nicely cut oval..., lets finish it a two carat+ cushion!)
Then you are surprised you get a long elongated oval/cushion ???

or other type?

Now..., another thing..., most cutters decide on the number of facets, their angles, and proportions while being cut on the wheel based on the rough material itself. (Example: if we can not cover the natural on the edge without sacrificing the spread..., lets add a few extra facets..., it should do the job

.)

And the reasons go on and on....

 

[Serg]

Date: 3/9/2008 8:19:52 PM
Author: Rhino
Greetings gemgirl,

It's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. Just some questions as I read your post. I would not argue your point about the round because I agree (as I believe most here would as well). All points being equi-distant from the center etc.

What about perfectly symmetrical Squares? Cushions?

What tool/science/technology are you utilizing to examine diamonds with to cause you to arrive at your conclusions? Curious.

Kind regards,

Rhino,
Sorry , I am again disagree with your.

The main task diamond CUT is not to "RETURN" (reflect) light.
The main task diamond CUT is too "COLLECT LIGHT and REDIRECT IT to HUMAN EYES "( if we are speaking about "Light Return"

For example Fire is different story( Different task for diamond CUT)

BTW, I did not see yet your publication DiamXray photo for diamond with black painted pavilion

"I am running about 24 hours behind on my email so I may not get the chance to post tomorrow but if I get a chance to break away I'll be happy to take a picture with the pavilion blocked."

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/asscher-pricescope-approval.76696/page-4

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/10/2008 5:41:48 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 3/9/2008 7:41:14 PM
Author: strmrdr

mixed cut please, round.
16 fold x 3 step cut on top and RB bottom 20% crown height 45% table :}

Is that an order????

I wish lol
After a monster or 3 that would be next on my list.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 10:33:50 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 3/9/2008 1:14:18 PM
Author: strmrdr
sig and nickname is explained here, some of the other info there is out of date..:
http://www.pricescope.com/forum/who-s-who/hmmmmm-who-am-i-today-t10083.html

To Strmrdr -

I was reading through this thread and took the link to your bio. I see that you love storms, particularly tornadoes. Tell ya what, why don''t we switch houses from say...NOW...until...oh....July-ish.

I admit they''re fascinatinng, and I respect them, a LOT, but I sure as heck don''t love them.

And yes, from that you may infer that I live in one of those fun places like Oklahoma City. I escaped unscathed from May 3, 1999, but I knew too many who didn''t. Tornadoes? I just cringe every spring. And our meteorolgists here have all lost their minds since then. I''ve lived here pretty much forever, and they never used to do this, but NOW, they pre-empt every show on every local station for all blinkin'' night coverage like ''OMG!!! There''s a raindrop in McCurtain county....! Val is out there now!!!'' (one of the premier chasers on a local station). And nowadays if there is a circulation - not a tornado on the ground mind you - just a hook echo, on say, the eastern edge of Oklahoma county, they blow the sirens EVERY FREAKING WHERE in the whole blinkin'' county. Oklahoma county is HUUUGE - about 700+ sq miles, and they get people all stressed out when the tornado is ridiculously far away. In their zeal for ratings, they''ve all decided to play ''Wolf''. Nope, tornadoes are only good for people don''t have to live with them as an ever-present reality.

I''m afraid I view them mostly as a PITA.

I understand.
I have the utmost respect for the power they have and great sadness for the destruction they cause each year.
But like a deadly cobra they are beautiful too.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 5:57:02 PM
Author: gemgirl
Back too school with ya and don''t drink too much gia cool-aid lol (just kidding you a little).


You are a rude, arrogant and insulting human being. There''s no kidding nature to your comment. There''s nothing funny about it.

For me, this thread is closed.

I am sorry that I upset you.
Anyone that knows me will tell ya that that was a rather bad attempt at a joke and that I am really rather nice just a little grumpy.

GIA is in a lot of ways still back in the stone age as are many GG''s that haven''t kept up since they graduated.
The science of diamond cut is evolving at a tremendous pace and anyone who claims they have all the answers today is wrong.
I have said and strongly believe that in 10 years we will look back and laugh at the grading systems of today and there will be a lot of head smacking and people saying DUH! why didn''t we see that.
The biggest problem is that a lot of the industry is in the stone ages and has relied on tradition and the cartels for survival.
That will not work with today''s knowledge seeking consumers.

My comment about not drinking the cool-aid was my way of saying don''t get caught up in the dark ages and question everything and keep learning and growing.
A GG is just the beginning of a lifetime of learning.
It is rather painful seeing the bewildered look on peoples faces who stopped learning 20 years ago when they got their GG.