Would a cushion appear to have more fire than a round?

[beaujolais]

Would a cushion appear to have more color than a round since the chunks of fire a cushion gives are larger?

Thanks.

 

[arjunajane]

hmmm..not sure. Have you checked out the cushion vids on GOG? These should give you a good idea of how thw cushions perform.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/9/2008 8:22:40 AM
Author:sonomacounty
Would a cushion appear to have more color than a round since the chunks of fire a cushion gives are larger?

Thanks.

It depends on the cuts of the diamonds I think. A well cut cushion can out perform a poorly cut round, and vice versa. If you are looking for a stunning cushion, it could be best to contact Mark at www.engagementrings.com and Jon at www.goodoldgold.com These guys have a great rep with cushions and can help you find a beauty! I don't know if you can absolutely compare these 2 shapes for any aspect of performance, as much depends on the cut and personal taste of the wearer and lighting conditions, although those with gorgeous cushions here may have a different opinion!

But I think most would agree that the top cut round may offer the best all round performance.

 

[beaujolais]

Yes, extensively. But, I''m looking for your opinions, in words, if a cushion appears to give more fire than a round.

Regarding cut, compare fire if both the round and cushion are equally excellently cut.

Thanks.

 

[strmrdr]

chunky, in between or crushed ice look?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/9/2008 10:36:16 AM
Author: sonomacounty
<Have you checked out the cushion vids on GOG? These should give you a good idea of how thw cushions perform. >

Yes, extensively. But, I'm looking for your opinions, in words, if a cushion appears to give more fire than a round.

Regarding cut, compare fire if both the round and cushion are equally excellently cut.

Thanks.

I know what you are asking, and I am trying to think of the best way to answer, so I found this by expert OldMiner which may be helpful, from an old thread with a poster asking which of the fancy shapes had the most fire compared to a round.

"I really doubt you would want a diamond that had more "fire", colored light return, than a fine diamond may have. It would look rather unusual and strange, not as diamond-like as most fine stones. On top of this problem of appearance would be how anyone would determine a diamond had more fire than another. You can measure total light return, sparkle and intensity, but you can only predict or guess at total colored light return. Would you want to discount body color? How about small bits of fire that might be there which the eye does not detect? What kind of lighting would be used? Facet size, position and shape all dictate fire's visibility, but the value of a diamond is not determined by fire.

You need to be sure of the definintions of what you are asking for before wanting some component of light return which is not only elusive, but an inherent part of most every faceted diamond's character.

Fire will show more in certain lightiing and less in others. Fire needs to be large enough to see even though predicitve tools will tell you it exists where you can't see it. Fire is always a feature of a finely cut diamond, but may not be the way to determine which one to purchase. It could be for you, but as a generalization, fire would not be something to quantify in order to choose a diamond.

Beauty is what most folks want in a diamond. Beauty is a product of light return and the craft of diamond cutting. It is a subjective thing which therefore has no exact maximum. We can measure certain components which occur when regular people and experts agree a diamond is beautiful. We then can say we can give a set of measures which occur when beauty is generally perceived. Fire is not a necessary component of these measures. It could be if one wants to include it, but it is more variable and always found in regular and finely cut diamonds.

I hope this helps you make a better question and/or a more meaningful search."David S. Atlas

GG(GIA), ASG, Sr. Mbr. NAJA

www.datlas.com

 

[strmrdr]

With all due respect Id have too strongly disagree with Dave''s above quote.
Almost any traditional fancy trades off while light compared too the best cut round.
Some will have more fire some less all will likely have different fire.
Even within the range of ideal cut diamonds there are different types of fire.
chunkier vs pinfire (lgf%)
more dispersive vs more directional(fic vs tic)
more dispersive vs chunkier(fic vs shorter lgf% in a tic)

Calling any rounds fire chunky until you get into the oec range compared to fancy cut chunky is sort of a miss use of terms hence the term chunkier.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/9/2008 10:51:55 AM
Author: strmrdr
With all due respect Id have too strongly disagree with Dave's above quote.
Almost any traditional fancy trades off while light compared too the best cut round.
Some will have more fire some less all will likely have different fire.
Even within the range of ideal cut diamonds there are different types of fire.
chunkier vs pinfire (lgf%)
more dispersive vs more directional(fic vs tic)
more dispersive vs chunkier(fic vs shorter lgf% in a tic)

Calling any rounds fire chunky until you get into the oec range compared to fancy cut chunky is sort of a miss use of terms hence the term chunkier.

I understand Storm, but I am thinking that it is difficult to say for sure, yes, an excellently cut cushion WILL have more fire than an excellently cut round, when we don't have the actual diamonds to compare to, and to take into account the various factors that can influence the fire factor.

Original thread - https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/which-has-the-most-fire.53302/

 

[gemgirl]

Date: 3/9/2008 10:36:16 AM
Author: sonomacounty
<Have you checked out the cushion vids on GOG? These should give you a good idea of how thw cushions perform. >

Yes, extensively. But, I''m looking for your opinions, in words, if a cushion appears to give more fire than a round.

Regarding cut, compare fire if both the round and cushion are equally excellently cut.

Thanks.

If my memory is correct from my GIA studies, no shape will have more brilliance (reflected white light), fire (color dispersion) and scintillation (the combination of both brilliance and fire) than an ideally cut round brilliant.

 

[Ellen]

I always got the impression, from what I''ve read here, that fancies lack a bit on white light return, and therefore appear to have more fire, when in reality they don''t.

And just from my own personal observation of my OMC and my round, my round blows the OMC out of the water, in every respect. But maybe it''s a poorly cut OMC, I''ve not had it appraised.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 11:05:33 AM
Author: gemgirl

If my memory is correct from my GIA studies, no shape will have more brilliance (reflected white light), fire (color dispersion) and scintillation (the combination of both brilliance and fire) than an ideally cut round brilliant.

That is not true, the only area a RB will almost always win is white light return.
Some of the modern fancies will match that too.
Some of my asscher designs have better stereo white light return than some GIA VG cut rounds.
A high crown asscher will have more dispersion than any RB can hope too have.
An RB by its very shape is directional which limits dispersion.
As far as scint goes it depends on the criteria, a well cut asscher will have more large events but less small and med events... which is better small, med or large? how do you quantify it?

 

[beaujolais]

chunky

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Is it, perhaps, that if a round does give as much fire as a cushion, that we seem to see the cushion as giving more, as the chunks are larger and we can see it more easily, rather than having to look harder for color in our rounds?

I have a round (triple excellent GIA), that while lovely, is not meeting my fire needs.

Thanks all.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 12:46:24 PM
Author: sonomacounty
<chunky, in between or crushed ice look>

chunky

----

Is it, perhaps, that if a round does give as much fire as a cushion, that we seem to see the cushion as giving more, as the chunks are larger and we can see it more easily, rather than having to look harder for color in our rounds?

I have a round (triple excellent GIA), that while lovely, is not meeting my fire needs.

Thanks all.

No one really knows the answer too your question, the research continues.
Comparing fire from one round too another is just barely possible from a grading standpoint at this time and how well it aligns with human vision is a huge question mark.

if well cut it could appear too have more fire in light conditions capable of producing fire.
What type of lighting are you in the most?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 11:18:41 AM
Author: Ellen
I always got the impression, from what I've read here, that fancies lack a bit on white light return, and therefore appear to have more fire, when in reality they don't.

hast been proven one way or the other, my opinion swings one way or the other at times.
When looking at the diamonds themselves there are too many contradictions too make a call.
At this time my gut feeling is that some cuts actually produce more fire than the RB but the RB may be better at returning that fire in a small area so more of it hits the eye when actualy looking for it.

 

[beaujolais]

What type of lighting are you in the most?>

---

Indoor, I suppose. It does better in certain other lighting.

I wonder if I''m looking for a reason to purchase something else.

---

Oh, Storm - what does you Veritas . . . tag line mean? I was going to do a Google search on it but haven''t so far.

Storm = diamond genius.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 1:01:23 PM
Author: sonomacounty

<if well cut it could appear too have more fire in light conditions capable of producing fire.
What type of lighting are you in the most?>

---

Indoor, I suppose. It does better in certain other lighting.

I wonder if I''m looking for a reason to purchase something else.

---

Oh, Storm - what does you Veritas . . . tag line mean? I was going to do a Google search on it but haven''t so far.

Storm = diamond genius.

sig and nickname is explained here, some of the other info there is out of date..:
http://www.pricescope.com/forum/who-s-who/hmmmmm-who-am-i-today-t10083.html

What type of lighting indoor? office fluorescent? reg. light bulbs? compact fluorescent?

 

[beaujolais]

Ah, thanks. Fascinating.

I, too, love weather and storms.

 

[beaujolais]

What type of lighting indoor? office fluorescent? reg. light bulbs? compact fluorescent?>

office flour.

Thanks.

 

[Rhino]

A favorite subject of mine.

Sonoma ... if you are who I think you are and you''re here in NY you can stop by and I can show and demonstrate to you fire in the 3 most common types of cushion on the market and put it alongside a round with the rarest optics and show you side by side. All in equal lighting that will depict fire.

To formulate it into words ...

Firstly ... chunky faceted cushions are not the easiest to find. Secondly if one is found there is no guarantee that the facet angles it is cut to will give the best fire that can be seen or found in these particular cuts. Remember ... the proportions of these diamonds still come into play regarding optics just as it does for all other shapes so getting a chunky styled cushion is no guarantee for superior fire either. The question remains ... is that chunky styled cushion cut to a proportion combo that will contribute to the type of broad fire flash you''re hoping to see in it.

Lastly, say one is located, it doesn''t necessarily give off more fire perse. The nature of it is completely different than in the finest rounds. The empahsis in them will of course be the broad fire, larger singular flashes of colored light and that is going to depend on the lighting you are in. If you are looking for strong fire in a lighting environment that will not give it, your search will be in vain ... even in a chunky faceted cushion cut to a good proportion combo.

Indoor lighting isn''t necessarily the best lighting to see fire in. Go out into direct sunlight however ... if your have a diamond that is either a great ideal cut or even a shallow angled combo you''ll see great fire in the sunlight (stronger spot lighting) environments.

Hope that helps.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 1:34:01 PM
Author: sonomacounty
What type of lighting indoor? office fluorescent? reg. light bulbs? compact fluorescent?>

office flour.

Thanks.

its the lighting, not your diamond in the office.
You will get some white light return sparkle but very little fire.

 

[gemgirl]

I''m sorry strmrdr but your answer is incorrect. I really don''t mean to sound rude at all, it''s that your answer defies mathematical logic. The only shape that is perfectly symmetrical is the round brilliant. Each facet compliments the next facet, each opposing facet perfectly mirrors the opposing facet. Mathematically, it is the perfect prism. It is illogical to believe that any cut (shape) other than a perfectly uniform symmetrical cut (shape) could return light as well. Every point from the girdle is equi-distant from the center. It is the case with ALL other shapes, that there will be some degree of light leakage (no matter how well that diamond is cut) because of the varying and increasing size and change in shape of the facets as you reach the furthest point from the center.

I''ve been studying diamonds (cut, what goes into "quality", etc.) for many many years with the help of some GG friends and now on my own with GIA. I do believe that your answer was formulated by opinion rather than through factual mathematic theory.

This is elementary, but let''s wait for our experts to chime in.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 2:19:19 PM
Author: gemgirl
I'm sorry strmrdr but your answer is incorrect. I really don't mean to sound rude at all, it's that your answer defies mathematical logic. The only shape that is perfectly symmetrical is the round brilliant. Each facet compliments the next facet, each opposing facet perfectly mirrors the opposing facet. Mathematically, it is the perfect prism. It is illogical to believe that any cut (shape) other than a perfectly uniform symmetrical cut (shape) could return light as well. Every point from the girdle is equi-distant from the center. It is the case with ALL other shapes, that there will be some degree of light leakage (no matter how well that diamond is cut) because of the varying and increasing size and change in shape of the facets as you reach the furthest point from the center.

I've been studying diamonds (cut, what goes into 'quality', etc.) for many many years with the help of some GG friends and now on my own with GIA. I do believe that your answer was formulated by opinion rather than through factual mathematic theory.

This is elementary, but let's wait for our experts to chime in.

actually I'm not incorrect, in and out light path produces more white light return than fire.
By the very directional nature they produce less dispersion than a lot of other shapes.
The best fire from a RB(other than a fic) is at the facet junctions and the pavilion mains when they aren't blocked.
Back too school with ya and don't drink too much gia cool-aid lol (just kidding you a little).

 

[strmrdr]

the RB cut isn''t perfect there are always trade off and balance points between brightness, fire and scint that is a part of any RB design/grade/group/study/type.
That is why the BIC, TIC and FIC exist.

 

[strmrdr]

using science I just designed a very bright diamond it is beyond the modern reference tic that everyone uses as a yardstick...
But it would be a pretty fugly diamond....
AGS would give it somewhere around 4 or 5 or maybe even a 8 if it lost points for painting the pavilion(likely) and for lack of contrast and GIA a G for brillanteering.

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/9/2008 2:19:19 PM
Author: gemgirl
I''m sorry strmrdr but your answer is incorrect. I really don''t mean to sound rude at all, it''s that your answer defies mathematical logic. The only shape that is perfectly symmetrical is the round brilliant. Each facet compliments the next facet, each opposing facet perfectly mirrors the opposing facet. Mathematically, it is the perfect prism. It is illogical to believe that any cut (shape) other than a perfectly uniform symmetrical cut (shape) could return light as well. Every point from the girdle is equi-distant from the center. It is the case with ALL other shapes, that there will be some degree of light leakage (no matter how well that diamond is cut) because of the varying and increasing size and change in shape of the facets as you reach the furthest point from the center.

I''ve been studying diamonds (cut, what goes into ''quality'', etc.) for many many years with the help of some GG friends and now on my own with GIA. I do believe that your answer was formulated by opinion rather than through factual mathematic theory.

This is elementary, but let''s wait for our experts to chime in.

???

 

[kcoursolle]

From my experience, most modern cushions do not. However, I think it would be possible to find an antique type cushion with larger facets that could probably give off more fire than a well-cut round, especially if the round is more of a brighter larger table type of round.

 

[beaujolais]

You will get some white light return sparkle but very little fire.>

Oh, I absolutely know that and did not expect it to do fire in that environment.

It's o.k. in outdoor indirect lighting and the other lightings that diamonds do well in. Was just looking for more fire than this seems to provide.

No, it's not a larger table round (54.7)

---

Jon, sent you an e-mail. I wonder if a superior cut, chunky, GOG cushion would give more fire.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2008 4:07:25 PM
Author: sonomacounty
<its the lighting, not your diamond in the office.
You will get some white light return sparkle but very little fire.>

Oh, I absolutely know that and did not expect it to do fire in that environment.

It''s o.k. in outdoor indirect lighting and the other lightings that diamonds do well in. Was just looking for more fire than this seems to provide.

No, it''s not a larger table round (54.7)

---

Jon, sent you an e-mail. I wonder if a superior cut, chunky, GOG cushion would give more fire.

I think saying your looking for a different look would be a better way of putting it than more fire.
If you can visit Jon and look at all the different cuts of diamonds he offers and see what speaks too you.
It might just be one that you havent considered yet.

 

[diagem]

There are just tooooo many variants out there..., especially when it comes to cushions...
Its basically a Cushion jungle out there...

First..., find out the appearance you prefer..., then the shape..., the length x width ratio, depth.
Then you can go into the details..., like table preference, faceting size and positions and ratio's, crown height, lgf's, culets and position of culet reflections...

more? girdle thickness..., star lenghts, pavilion and crown alignments..., culet shape..., rounded shoulders or pointy ones..., shallow crown on deep pavilion..., high crown on shallow pavilions..., etc... etc...

Like I said, toooo many variants!!!

And everybody likes his/hers steak done differently...

 

[gemgirl]

Back too school with ya and don''t drink too much gia cool-aid lol (just kidding you a little).


You are a rude, arrogant and insulting human being. There''s no kidding nature to your comment. There''s nothing funny about it.

For me, this thread is closed.