Woman partially sucked out of jet

[missy]

ugh I am terrified of planes. I hate this type of stuff.

Me too. I know it is a very rare event and that flying in planes is way safer than driving in cars but still my fear of flying is strong. And I have no real desire to get over it at least for now. It's the lack of control and maybe I have a perceived false sense of control doing other things where we really dont have the control we think we do but I just feel safer driving. Even with all the drivers who have horrible driving skills who are all around us while we are on the road. There is only so much defensive driving can do for one to remain safe if there is a real menace on the road. But still I feel better driving than flying.

That poor woman and her family.

 

[lyra]

PSA: If the oxygen masks fall, put them over both your nose and mouth at the same time. There are pics where virtually no one put them on properly.

 

[Bonfire]

Yes, I'm aware engines suffer wear and tear and there are many examples where they have broken apart and they fatigue and things fly off them, things like bird strikes cause damage, bad maintenance etc - I mean specifically I don't know of another incident with that type of aircraft where a piece of the engine hit a window and a passenger got sucked out as it depressurised, do you? That is the part that seems totally random to me.

Here’s one for ya @arkieb1 A British Airways pilot was sucked out of a broken cockpit window while flying at 17,400 feet back in 1990. The window was installed incorrectly after maintenance and it flew off. The pilot was dragged out due to decompression. Luckily he survived! Quite the picture! Can you imagine? If it had been a two man crew it my not have ended so well. I’m only posting these incidents to bring light to similar incidents in aviation history. Not to argue.
ETA: Just to clarify this photo is a re-enactment of an actual event.

 

[lyra]

This is doing wonders for my fear of flying.

 

[Bonfire]

Sorry @lyra statistically air travel is extremely safe.

 

[MarionC]

I'm flying across the Atlantic today and this recent accident has been very much in my mind the last few days.
But flying is part of my life.
I had a bad phobia about flying that I worked through several years ago.
And now it does not thrill me, but I can do it without almost passing out.
I don't want to limit my life to the parts that are not scary...and anyway it's all scary
staying home to be safe is just an illusion.

 

[missy]

I'm flying across the Atlantic today and this recent accident has been very much in my mind the last few days.
But flying is part of my life.
I had a bad phobia about flying that I worked through several years ago.
And now it does not thrill me, but I can do it without almost passing out.
I don't want to limit my life to the parts that are not scary...and anyway it's all scary
staying home to be safe is just an illusion.

Buckets of safe travel dust being sent your way dear Jimmianne!!!

 

[perry]

I actually follow an aviation forum a lot more closely than this one. A few answers to the above questions or statements.

Other incidents of people being sucked out of blown out windows. It is my understanding that there have been 4-5 such events in the last 30 years (failed windows only). About half have involved crew only on cargo jets - and one of the more interesting stories is about a pilot being held by a flight attendant/engineer by his feet who popped through a front windshield that popped out during flight... and survived the landing well as he was pinned against the nose as the co-pilot landed the aircraft.

Such events are very rare and a lot of work has gone into insuring that windows stay attached to the air-frame. This is actually one of 2 BIG issues the NTSB is looking at: 1) Why did the engine fail 2) Why did the window pop out.

The deceased passenger was wearing her seat belt, and almost certainly was knocked unconcous by banging her head on the side of the aircraft as her upper torso entered a 400 MPH + jetstream. A simple lap belt only prevents motion forward. She would need to be in a 5 point race car type harness to have been retained in her seat by the air rush once the window popped out.

While a similar fan blade failed in the same model engine in 2016 and in the same location; it is premature to know if the cause of the failure is the same. Many times in the case of modern engine failures with major missing parts and damaged aircraft - initial manufacturing flaws that were too small to detect with known inspection techniques at time of manufacture are identified as the initiation site.

The question then becomes can we figure out a way to locate a growing fatigue crack later at that location before the component is likely to fail. Modern aircraft and jet engines have literally hundreds of specific inspections based on the answer to that question on previous failures. It is not possible to inspect every part from every direction for every possible flaw all the time.

On whole: Modern Aviation safety is by far the safest form of transportation due to the emphasis on independent non-fault finding investigation and recommendations by the NTSB and similar agencies in other countries (more people have on average more costly injuries from walking accidents).

The Aloha flight was a metal fatigue of the skin issue. It changed entirely inspection, maintenance, and even use of older aircraft (in some cases new skins are put on old frames).

There is no safe place to sit in an aircraft if the engine disintegrates. The record clearly shows that flying engine pieces are just as likely to hit forward or reward of the engine than in the engine cross section plane (and yes, engine pieces have been found in a cockpit). The key is to make engine disintegration's very rare and unlikely events - which has been done; and will be yet improved upon.

Often missed by the news is the response of the other airlines at Philadelphia to assist the SW aircraft and passengers. Several other "competitor" airlines wheeled automatically into action to help as if it were their own aircraft. The Aviation community is known for this. Accidents and crashes get a common joint response from everyone. Even flight diversions are often routinely handled by another companies ground crew. It's in everyone's best interest to cooperate and help.

My condolences to the deceased and her family,

Perry

 

[Arkteia]

So far they mentioned metal fatigue as the reason for the engines failure, but it will take a long time to figure out.

I read the interview with the woman sitting next to the victim, who was one of the two pulling the victim back into the plane. She said that she was scared about their crashing, but decided to focus on something happening next to her, which she hoped she could control. Sadly, the passenger still died. RIP.

The pilot is an amazing woman, very religious so she said something about Christ sitting next to her in the plane. Let her - it is her day. We, however, should probably think of her own fortitude and the amazing training she got in US Air Force.

 

[stracci2000]

Sadly, the funeral procession came past my house yesterday. The deceased woman's church is a few blocks from my house, as she was from my town.

 

[Bonfire]

Sadly, the funeral procession came past my house yesterday. The deceased woman's church is a few blocks from my house, as she was from my town.

I’m so sorry stracci. Such a sad sad situation certainly felt acutely by your neighbors and town.

 

[Calliecake]

Sadly, the funeral procession came past my house yesterday. The deceased woman's church is a few blocks from my house, as she was from my town.

I’m sorry @stracci2000 . I feel terrible for this poor woman’s family.

 

[perry]

Sadly, the funeral procession came past my house yesterday. The deceased woman's church is a few blocks from my house, as she was from my town.

Sorry you had to see that in person. It is a tragedy. In this case though the incident will be fully investigated (likely about a $ million spent) and improved airline safety will result. I am very aware of how the NTSB investigative process works. In general it is called "Root Cause Investigation" and Aerospace, Medical, and Nuclear are the 3 industries that use it. I am a certified Root Cause Evaluator (and qualified to be on a NTSB team) - and have led investigations into issues and equipment failures in nuclear power plants (typically at least a 3 month assignment for a team of people - longest investigation I was involved with was over 6 months). The NTSB uses a larger team and looks at a lot more aspects for a commercial airline accident (and their 12-18 month timeline is intentionally slow so that they don't miss anything).

I hope you are feeling better today,

Perry

 

[perry]

So far they mentioned metal fatigue as the reason for the engines failure, but it will take a long time to figure out.

I read the interview with the woman sitting next to the victim, who was one of the two pulling the victim back into the plane. She said that she was scared about their crashing, but decided to focus on something happening next to her, which she hoped she could control. Sadly, the passenger still died. RIP.

The pilot is an amazing woman, very religious so she said something about Christ sitting next to her in the plane. Let her - it is her day. We, however, should probably think of her own fortitude and the amazing training she got in US Air Force.

If I may, let me explain a bit about what "metal fatigue" is - and the factors they will be looking at to determine cause.

In general... metals fail in 5 ways: Corrosion, erosion, displacement, brittle crack, metal fatigue cracking.

An example of displacement would be a puncture from a sharp object or perhaps a bullet hole in a plate. The metal is pushed aside and ductile yields.

Brittle cracking is best illustrated by glass. Glass just shatters and breaks. Some metals do as well under certain conditions.

For most industrial applications it is desired that a metal fail by metal fatigue. That is that an initial small crack develops - and slowly grows. It leaves a characteristic "wavy" pattern in the metal as each crack growth is a new wave (this is why they could say metal fatigue based on a simple visual inspection - the wavy pattern is easily seen; and I've seen it myself many times). That there is enough material so that the crack can grow through most of the thickness of the metal before it fails.

The single largest function of a metallurgist is designing metal allows that have appropriate strength for weight and will fail via metal fatigue. Metal fatigue crack growth is well understood and it is known how much a crack typically grows each stress cycle. In brittle fracture, the metal unexpectedly fails as the crack proceeds at the speed of sound though the metal (ultimately, after the metal fatigue crack gets large enough - often 70-90% through wall - the remaining metal fails in brittle fracture mode - which has a ragged crystalline surface pattern vs the wavy metal fatigue pattern).

The reason we want most metals to fail by fatigue is that often the crack can be detected before failure - and you can design a fatigue life of many years into a metal object. It is assumed that all metals have defects. So if the largest undetectable defect is present... given the application and service; the part can be designed so that the crack needs to have thousands - if not millions or even billions of stress strain cycles before it will grow to the failure point.

Here is what we know at this point on this failure: The engine had about 40,000 hours on it total. It was totally inspected and rebuilt at 30,000 hours (any parts not replaced were exhaustively inspected). From a technical standpoint this is an engine with about 10,000 hours on it.

You can look at the wavy metal fatigue pattern and see from where the crack initiated. The NTSB has reported that this crack initiated from the inside surface of a hollow fan blade (think of a windmill blade: It is hollow inside - and has a skin). As such, this crack was not detectable by any visual method from outside the fan blade prior to failure (and the inside of these fan blades are likely not directly accessible once the engine is assembled). It may have been detectable by ultrasonic inspection if the UT probe was held in a specific spot on the outer fan blade. I am sure the NTSB will identify how (if possible) to identify this kind of cracking with UT - and then you can be sure that all similar fan blades will receive that UT inspection over a short period of time - in the world.

The engine will be very carefully dismantled and the failed fan blade hub with the fatigue crack surface will go into a metallurgy laboratory. They will identify what was the initial defect - and what caused it (most recently these kinds of defects have been original manufacturing defects that were below the detection ability of the NDE techniques used at the time).

The other thing they will determine: How old is this actual fan blade. 40,000 hours, 10,000 hours, or something else as it was replaced another time. Was the principal growth of the fatigue crack related to just the stresses from rotating around the core (potentially billions of low stress cycles), was it related to the number of engine start ups (high thermal stress), or was it related to the number of power climbs as the aircraft took off or did major flight profile changes (thermal and force stress). They will find the history of all of that - the aviation community keeps exhaustive records.

While all of that is going on: They will have another group looking at the window - and why it popped out.

They always have a group looking at the actions of the pilots and crew and procedures (there is a guarantee of no retaliation or prosecution for mistakes and errors - it's best to get people to tell the truth; and that is done when they know that all the investigator wants know is what they did (mistakes and all) so they can figure out how to better train subsequent pilots and crew). I have run such interviews with nuclear plant operators and maintenance people. Sometimes people just make mistakes. Those are the easiest things to fix in the future. (( In the medical field all Dr's, nurses, etc can walk into some room somewhere and say "I just killed someone (or almost killed someone) - please help me understand how I could have done better and how to move forward" and they are 100% legally protected and the entire proceedings are totally confidential)).

Most high level pilots and lead crew members have in fact participated in a NTSB investigation - as the teams always include airline personnel and other appropriate crew members. The movie Sully created a lot of false impression on how he was treated for "dramatic effect." Sully had been on several NTSB investigation teams for other airline accidents - he knew the process - and that they don't criticize or assign blame.

I know this has been a long post. I hope it helps explains what metal fatigue is and the process.

Have a great day,

Perry

ps: The pilot was in the US Navy. Not Air-force. Both provide great training about how to handle stress and emergency situations.

 

[perry]

An NTSB update for those interested: It appears that a piece of engine debris impacted the side of the aircraft - which flexed things enough for the window to pop out. There is no evidence of any engine parts inside the aircraft.

You can see the classic fatigue indications on the failed fan blade.

NTSB 5/3/2018 Investigative Update https://goo.gl/bJCGdo

Perry

 

[Arkteia]

If I may, let me explain a bit about what "metal fatigue" is - and the factors they will be looking at to determine cause.

In general... metals fail in 5 ways: Corrosion, erosion, displacement, brittle crack, metal fatigue cracking.

An example of displacement would be a puncture from a sharp object or perhaps a bullet hole in a plate. The metal is pushed aside and ductile yields.

Brittle cracking is best illustrated by glass. Glass just shatters and breaks. Some metals do as well under certain conditions.

For most industrial applications it is desired that a metal fail by metal fatigue. That is that an initial small crack develops - and slowly grows. It leaves a characteristic "wavy" pattern in the metal as each crack growth is a new wave (this is why they could say metal fatigue based on a simple visual inspection - the wavy pattern is easily seen; and I've seen it myself many times). That there is enough material so that the crack can grow through most of the thickness of the metal before it fails.

The single largest function of a metallurgist is designing metal allows that have appropriate strength for weight and will fail via metal fatigue. Metal fatigue crack growth is well understood and it is known how much a crack typically grows each stress cycle. In brittle fracture, the metal unexpectedly fails as the crack proceeds at the speed of sound though the metal (ultimately, after the metal fatigue crack gets large enough - often 70-90% through wall - the remaining metal fails in brittle fracture mode - which has a ragged crystalline surface pattern vs the wavy metal fatigue pattern).

The reason we want most metals to fail by fatigue is that often the crack can be detected before failure - and you can design a fatigue life of many years into a metal object. It is assumed that all metals have defects. So if the largest undetectable defect is present... given the application and service; the part can be designed so that the crack needs to have thousands - if not millions or even billions of stress strain cycles before it will grow to the failure point.

Here is what we know at this point on this failure: The engine had about 40,000 hours on it total. It was totally inspected and rebuilt at 30,000 hours (any parts not replaced were exhaustively inspected). From a technical standpoint this is an engine with about 10,000 hours on it.

You can look at the wavy metal fatigue pattern and see from where the crack initiated. The NTSB has reported that this crack initiated from the inside surface of a hollow fan blade (think of a windmill blade: It is hollow inside - and has a skin). As such, this crack was not detectable by any visual method from outside the fan blade prior to failure (and the inside of these fan blades are likely not directly accessible once the engine is assembled). It may have been detectable by ultrasonic inspection if the UT probe was held in a specific spot on the outer fan blade. I am sure the NTSB will identify how (if possible) to identify this kind of cracking with UT - and then you can be sure that all similar fan blades will receive that UT inspection over a short period of time - in the world.

The engine will be very carefully dismantled and the failed fan blade hub with the fatigue crack surface will go into a metallurgy laboratory. They will identify what was the initial defect - and what caused it (most recently these kinds of defects have been original manufacturing defects that were below the detection ability of the NDE techniques used at the time).

The other thing they will determine: How old is this actual fan blade. 40,000 hours, 10,000 hours, or something else as it was replaced another time. Was the principal growth of the fatigue crack related to just the stresses from rotating around the core (potentially billions of low stress cycles), was it related to the number of engine start ups (high thermal stress), or was it related to the number of power climbs as the aircraft took off or did major flight profile changes (thermal and force stress). They will find the history of all of that - the aviation community keeps exhaustive records.

While all of that is going on: They will have another group looking at the window - and why it popped out.

They always have a group looking at the actions of the pilots and crew and procedures (there is a guarantee of no retaliation or prosecution for mistakes and errors - it's best to get people to tell the truth; and that is done when they know that all the investigator wants know is what they did (mistakes and all) so they can figure out how to better train subsequent pilots and crew). I have run such interviews with nuclear plant operators and maintenance people. Sometimes people just make mistakes. Those are the easiest things to fix in the future. (( In the medical field all Dr's, nurses, etc can walk into some room somewhere and say "I just killed someone (or almost killed someone) - please help me understand how I could have done better and how to move forward" and they are 100% legally protected and the entire proceedings are totally confidential)).

Most high level pilots and lead crew members have in fact participated in a NTSB investigation - as the teams always include airline personnel and other appropriate crew members. The movie Sully created a lot of false impression on how he was treated for "dramatic effect." Sully had been on several NTSB investigation teams for other airline accidents - he knew the process - and that they don't criticize or assign blame.

I know this has been a long post. I hope it helps explains what metal fatigue is and the process.

Have a great day,

Perry

ps: The pilot was in the US Navy. Not Air-force. Both provide great training about how to handle stress and emergency situations.

Hi Perry,

Thank you. Super interesting. I was in Moscow when Chernobyl happened and very recently, totally unexpectedly, I developed interest in the history of the development of the first A-bombs. I think I read about the ALSOS project somewhere (some WWII book, it could be about Nuremberg - I was interested in it). Plan to read what I can get. History surely beats any thrillers.

About Sully - and the pilots - it would be interesting to find out how people are selected for this job, emotionally. To me it would seem that the same qualities that could make a brilliant pilot could break him, eventually, too.

Sully, as I understand, was lucky in that these potential crisis situations became his micro-hobby before the accident happened (didn't he have a website on it?). He is a very smart person. But of course, to make a movie out of a brilliant, somewhat introverted, hero pilot's story, you have to add drama to it - this is why in the movie it looked like the pilots were accused and got the gehenna-level grilling. Otherwise, there would be no movie.

In the medical (or any other) field - there are two types of people, the "worriers" and the "warriors". The worriers, actually, think faster and perform better on tests where the task abruptly changes. In real life they are what they are - the worriers. "Preparedness" kings and queens. Sometimes impossible to life with (I am the "warrior"). However, here is the irony. If something tragic happens (a catastrophe, a war, or something else), the "worriers", paradoxically, calm down and take over. (Because one of their fears has already happened and they have not died. So the fear is left in the past). Such people are great as doctors and nurses in the ER, 911 operators, or any emergency responders. Where fast decision-making takes priority over right decision-making (you have to triage in your brain, all the time, right or wrong, we'll figure it out later, but do it fast).

So I don't know if doctors would say, "I nearly killed a patient", for type A's it is known that there a certain percent of mistakes and it is sadly inevitable, the phrase would be more likely, "let me pick your brain".

 

[lyra]

Very interesting @Arkteia . I would class myself as a worrier, definitely not a warrior. What you say rings true. There is a dead calmness that comes during a crisis. I panic at the thought of many things, but you're right, when they actually happen, you have to live through it, and being methodical helps.

 

[Arkteia]

Very interesting @Arkteia . I would class myself as a worrier, definitely not a warrior. What you say rings true. There is a dead calmness that comes during a crisis. I panic at the thought of many things, but you're right, when they actually happen, you have to live through it, and being methodical helps.

I think the biggest fear of the "worriers" is the fear of losing control over the situation, this is why they spend so much time - mentally - thinking of how to be in control. Incessant "what if?" questions. But when "it" happens, the calmness comes with the realization that the control is not lost - so one jumps at taking the control.

One "worrier" is enough to organize the whole neighborhood. I surely hope we have one living in the vicinity!

 

[lyra]

I'm Plan B person. There is always another thing to try or do. I quiz my kids on life situations to this day and they're 27 and 30. It kind of stresses them out sometimes. But these things run through my mind constantly. To be honest, it comes from going through a lot of stressful life changing situations over the years. It's not like I worry for no reason. Things can happen to anyone at any time.

 

[Arkteia]

I'm Plan B person. There is always another thing to try or do. I quiz my kids on life situations to this day and they're 27 and 30. It kind of stresses them out sometimes. But these things run through my mind constantly. To be honest, it comes from going through a lot of stressful life changing situations over the years. It's not like I worry for no reason. Things can happen to anyone at any time.

Yes, and people like you are golden in the situation when something really happens, because real-life tragedies paralyze communities for a while, and worriers have the potential of organizing everything, quickly and efficiently. In every day life, I think incessant worriers make own life difficult. But I guess we can not change.