Window! Re-cut: yes or no?

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

Here is my photo that shows the gem's window best:



The gem is 1.61 carat: http://www.wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/unheated_african_sapphire_1_61/10826/20578

I can have a free re-cut by a precision cutter to close the window. Ed Bristol estimates the gem will end up with 1.2-1.3 carat, definitely not under one carat but also not over 1.5.

This is the first time I have fully understood and 'seen' a window but I must say that I'm not sure I would have noticed without Ed's disclosure and comment. Here is the downside of an honest vendor description: Once I have fixated on the little hole in the middle, it starts bugging me. Perhaps not knowing would have been easier. But I do want to get better in my choices and qualities, so I guess I have to go through it.

In most hand images, when the gem's middle is between fingers, and with a dark background the window is not visible or disappears or whatever. Would that effect be the same after a setting?

Fellow collectors: Would you loose, say 0.4 carat, of such an unheated pink to make it perfect?

Esteemed cutters: Would you re-cut this in my place?

 

[missy]

Disclaimer: I am not a colored gems expert but here is a thought. Does Ed think that you can hide the window in the proper setting? If so you can preserve the size and beauty. If not I would go for the recut. Windows bug the heck out of me once I see them as you noticed you can't "un"see them.

 

[arglthesheep]

depends on you
You have to be happy with the stone.
A proper recut will raise the brilliance and overall apearence of the stone.
But it will get smaller.
As you said at first you did not notice, now you seem to see it.
So to be happy I think a recut will be better
just my 2 cents...

 

[pinkjewel]

Here's what I would probably do. Have the stone sent to me to make sure I loved it in person. I've sent back the one sapphire I got from Ed. Then see if you placed it over some settings if the window bugged me, If so I would send it to Jerry at Gemart and let him recut it. His prices are very, very reasonable and his recuts are wonderful!

 

[T L]

Recuts can have a negative impact on saturation. I don't think the window is that bad, but it's about what you can tolerate.

 

[Seaglow]

If I'd keep it in a box as a collection, I'd recut it. If I'll wear it as jewelry, I'll leave it as it is and choose a setting that doesn't emphasize the window. The window isn't so big and you most likely won't see it in all angles.

 

[Arcadian]

I would not recut, it already looks quite shallow. You're risking not only size but also saturation. Settings can close windows to a degree. The one in the OP, I have to say no unless its a totally closed back..and even then that would be iffy.

If you like the stone OP and it wasn't terribly expensive. It may be good for reference color (its very pretty btw) but IMO if its already pricey, then it will only get pricier for no reason.

 

[Burmesedaze]

For the size, no I wouldn't bother with a recut, since it's not that big to begin with. I *think* the right setting can close up the window pretty much and if worn won't be noticed casually.

If it's for collection and not to be set and worn, I'd return it and bide my time for a better stone, if the window really bugs you that much. It's a lovely shade and clarity, but for this size, you can really wait a while longer for something else to come along.

 

[SparkliesLuver]

haha I'm in the exact same situation - got an unheated pink with a nasty window. I did send it to get the pavilion tweaked because windows severely bug me, and I knew this was a stone I wanted to keep and set. However, when you do this, you're limited by the depth. Proper angles typically limit you to 1.5 times the depth. Sometimes doing the math helps me realize what the new dimensions might be and if I'll lose too much size (or if it'll be worth it).

Keep us posted on what you decide! Best of luck to you.

 

[ElleK]

I have only ever recut one stone, and it was because the stone was not stable to set otherwise. It had a long crack along the bottom of the keel, and would have likely broken during setting if I had not had it recut. It lost some saturation, but otherwise it would have sat in a box for the entirety of it's life.

I typically do not recommend recutting unless there is minimal cost (both immediate cutting cost and loss of stone value) and minimal risk (for damage, loss of saturation, stone value, etc). If the stone speaks to you without a recut, I would not mess with it. Gemstones are at the most risk for damage when they are being cut and when they are being set because of the friction and the pressure being put on the stone.

 

[OTL]

I wouldn't recut. I will leave it as is. Accept the window or walk away.
It's a small stone, recut might change the color saturation as well. Step cut in this case typically will accumulate the color saturation.

 

[pregcurious]

I wouldn't recut. I will leave it as is. Accept the window or walk away.
It's a small stone, recut might change the color saturation as well. Step cut in this case typically will accumulate the color saturation.

Agree with this.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

Don't laugh, but I actually made my decision via a dream last night: The part I remember is of getting it back from Ed's recut and it was beyond beautiful. I clearly remember seeing the perfection of each facet and the fire rising from the stone. I guess this is a sign I'm on the way to a full blown obsession with my gemstones.

Thanks, however, for all your thoughts and advice. It seems the majority here wouldn't re-cut but I will try anyways, partly because of the above dream, partly because I hope to learn a lot from the process. Also it will be free of charge, so all i loose it carat weight and somehow that doesn't bother me much. I look at the gems through my lens most of the time, so it does not really matter if it is 7mm or 6mm wide.

I will keep you posted with new images when it is done.

 

[T L]

Don't laugh, but I actually made my decision via a dream last night: The part I remember is of getting it back from Ed's recut and it was beyond beautiful. I clearly remember seeing the perfection of each facet and the fire rising from the stone. I guess this is a sign I'm on the way to a full blown obsession with my gemstones.

Thanks, however, for all your thoughts and advice. It seems the majority here wouldn't re-cut but I will try anyways, partly because of the above dream, partly because I hope to learn a lot from the process. Also it will be free of charge, so all i loose it carat weight and somehow that doesn't bother me much. I look at the gems through my lens most of the time, so it does not really matter if it is 7mm or 6mm wide.

I will keep you posted with new images when it is done.

A couple of us said it might also affect saturation. I once learned this the hard way myself as recuts can affect the intensity of cooor. Since it seems you have already made up your mind, good luck.

In my case, I had a tiny tiny amount taken off a stone to close up a window and the stone went from neon to pale.

 

[arglthesheep]

I think it is the right decision though the stones is beautiful and worth a bunch of money.
But if a window is seen and is bothering you, you wont forget it anymore..
I don´t think this will affect the color much, as it is intense enough. It is problematic if the color is not even distributed (colorcenter or zoning) or if the starting stones color is not intense enough.
so keep us updated, when the recut is finished.

 

[chrono]

I wish you good luck on the recut.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

Thanks everybody for your input. I will post the result when they are done.

 

[pregcurious]

In my case, I had a tiny tiny amount taken off a stone to close up a window and the stone went from neon to pale.

Oh no. That is sad.

 

[SparkliesLuver]

Don't mean to threadjack at all, but wanted to chime in and say I got my pink sapphire back from its tweak. It lost a little weight but it was completely worth it. I can't wait to see yours!

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think throughout this thread the word "saturation" is being misused, and in place of "tone".

 

[T L]

I think throughout this thread the word "saturation" is being misused, and in place of "tone".

No, the stone I had recut went from not only a darker to lighter tone, but the hue itself wasn't as intense. Tone can be related to saruration if the tone becomes too light or dark, However tone can sometimes change without affecting saturation. My blue stone went from something like a paraiba color blue to something that looked more like an aqua. It definitely lost saturation.

 

[minousbijoux]

I think throughout this thread the word "saturation" is being misused, and in place of "tone".

No, the stone I had recut went from not only a darker to lighter tone, but the hue itself wasn't as intense. Tone can be related to saruration if the tone becomes too light or dark, However tone can sometimes change without affecting saturation. My blue stone went from something like a paraiba color blue to something that looked more like an aqua. It definitely lost saturation.

Completely agree with TL. If posters meant that upon recutting, their stone lost intensity of color, then saturation is the appropriate term.

 

[PrecisionGem]

In gemstones, saturation refers to the absence of gray or brown. A stone can be light in tone, yet high in saturation. I find that these terms are always intermixed here on Pricescope.

So what you are saying is that after recutting, the stone had the same tone, but became more gray?

 

[PrecisionGem]

So if the stone in question looked like this first image (Stone 1).
After recutting which image do you think it may end up looking like? Stone 2 or Stone 3 ?

Stone 1


Stone 2


Stone 3

 

[minousbijoux]

Gene, it doesn't have to be either/or. It can lighten up and lose saturation.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Gene, it doesn't have to be either/or. It can lighten up and lose saturation.

Can you explain how?

I will say, that I NEVER recommend people buying a stone with idea of having it recut. I buy and recut sapphires, but I am very selective when picking stones to recut, and since I have done this many times, know what to look for. A shallow stone with a window is normally not a good candidate.

 

[chroman]

Can you explain how?

Off the top of my head..

If the rays have a shorter path length inside the stone, you'll have less attenuation, giving more energy coming back over the region of the spectrum where the luminous efficency function lies. That would raise the tone.

Also with a shorter path length, you'll get a "broader" spectrum back, again due to less attenuation. That will be percieved as lower saturation. The most saturated colors we see have very narrow spectra - think laser light.

 

[T L]

So if the stone in question looked like this first image (Stone 1).
After recutting which image do you think it may end up looking like? Stone 2 or Stone 3 ?

Stone 1


Stone 2


Stone 3

Both 2 and 3, more gray and lighter tone. Combine the saturation if the bottom stone with the lighter tone of the middle one.

 

[T L]

In gemstones, saturation refers to the absence of gray or brown. A stone can be light in tone, yet high in saturation. I find that these terms are always intermixed here on Pricescope.

So what you are saying is that after recutting, the stone had the same tone, but became more gray?

If a stone is too light or dark in tone, it cannot have strong to vivid saturation. Notice that those saturation intensities are absent on genewizard for the lighter and darker tonalities on the tone scale. My stone has both lighter tone AND less saturation, the hue obviously was the same. I neglected to mention tone as well, but both tone and saturation were affected.

 

[mastercutgems]

Just 3 cents from an old cutter

I find it all depends on the mineral type, Refractive Index, and size of the gem, depth, color,and also the cut you use.... It is a case-by-case situation as the gem is like us; it has a personality all it's own...

I have seen gems deepen in saturation/tone from a brilliant cut and I have seen gems with a deeper tone lighten but it all depended on the mineral type, purity of the color and color type, and the depth of the gem and the facet pattern you use... Light can do some very strange things in a gem as more is at play than most consider... As Gene said saturation is purity of color without grey or brown; tone is the deepness or what I think of as deepness/richness of color which is truly affected more by light in the gem; which ray tracing models are made for... In layman's terms ;will the cut make the gem richer in the same color viewed or lighter than the original color viewed before the recut..

You can go in and eliminate the tiny window in a gem like shown in the beginning post and remove the window effect by just eliminating the below critical angle facets; therefore removing the window without putting in a full brilliant culet area. You blend in the angles and cuts to look symmetrical and like it was meant that way from the beginning. You have eliminated the sometimes eye focusing window without significantly altering the saturation/tone of said gem in a dramatic form. But also you must consider what will happen in the gem from the facets you created; will they blink at you; form a bowtie, or just reflect the light in a manner that will appeal to the eye and really create a non-eye focusing event inside the gem whereby the viewer will just see light and color and no distractions from lack of light reflecting or too much light reflecting in the wrong areas. It can be a crap-shoot and I for one have made some horrible mistakes on re-cutting gems and you just learn there are some things you just DO NOT DO !!!

I know to some cutters this is not suitable as it is not a organized facet pattern like on a gemcad or Long and Steele formulated cutting diagram; but it works to minimize weight loss; no loss in geometric circumference whereby it could fit back in the original mount if desired, and removes the window and lessens the dramatic tone/saturation of said gem...

So it can be done but it takes some thought in relation to not compromising the gem's color integrity.

But as stated earlier ; this is just one cutters opinion; but hey I have only cut over 5000 gems LOL

Most respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme Master Gem Cutter
#96CGE42