Why would breast feeding vary THIS much by state?

[AGBF]

oh and thanks Ksinger, Freke and others who say the OP should not dictate what I can say! I think in general I am positive, thoughtful and supportive PSer or at least I hope so.

You are the penultimate positive, thoughtful, and supportive Pricescoper, Skippy. I didn't think you needed my defense, or I'd have been glad to chime in on your behalf, too. Kenny's comments to you were ridiculous. I just ignore most ridiculous things said on Pricescope so that I don't tire myself out!

Let me know if you ever want me to slap kenny for you.

Hugs,
Deb

 

[ksinger]

oh and thanks Ksinger, Freke and others who say the OP should not dictate what I can say! I think in general I am positive, thoughtful and supportive PSer or at least I hope so.

You are the penultimate positive, thoughtful, and supportive Pricescoper, Skippy. I didn't think you needed my defense, or I'd have been glad to chime in on your behalf, too. Kenny's comments to you were ridiculous. I just ignore most ridiculous things said on Pricescope so that I don't tire myself out!

Let me know if you ever want me to slap kenny for you.

Hugs,
Deb

She's the next to last positive, thoughtful, and supportive Pricescoper? Deb, I would have placed her at the very front of that category.

 

[Circe]

IEB, for what it's worth ... though I haven't commented on this thread (exclusively pumping to feed my 9 month old, which what with the general caretaking and the trying to keep my career on distant life support, tends to eat all of my time), I've found your commentary to be heartening and spot-on. I'm sorry you're feeling stranded: if circumstances permitted, please do believe you'd be getting some backup.

Missy - agree. I love Kenny's motto that people vary, AND I believe we should talk TO a person and not ABOUT them - so, Kenny, I love ya, but I think that when you disagree with/do not see the point of a topic, "people vary," and when it's a thing you see as worthwhile, it has nothing to do with the price of eggs/tea/whatever. Which, really, is the whole point of people "varying" - we all have our hobby-horses.

As for the initial topic? Dude, I am, as I mentioned, on month 9 of pumping exclusively. Personally, having read every piece of literature out there, I think BFing isn't that much better than formula - certainly within a percentage of reasonable variation. So why am I DOING this? Because it seemed to matter a lot to my husband. So, simultaneously, I feel like if it matters to my scientist spouse it must be valid ... and like it's dehumanizing and I am, as my MIL (respectfully and jovially) put it, I'm a "good cow," ... and like there'd be an awful lot less of this whole, "why do women not do this???" shit if men could, for just a bit, get a load of the whole "most sensitive part of your anatomy in a vise" thing. Because I would happily cut my arm off for my kid if I believed it would do him some good, but as it is, I'm increasingly frustrated and defensive every time somebody who has NO idea what this is like makes like it's no big deal and/or de rigeur. Won't stop me from doing it, but it certainly gives me a bad case of rolly-eye.

P.S. - PackRat, generally I love everything about you from your name to your attitude, but ... do the words "internalized misogyny" mean anything to you? Because I read the bit about the "girls" on their "huffy bikes" and I thought, hot damn, talk about a walking, talking, quaking-like-a-duck illustration of the fact that patriarchy is a system and not a boys-vs-girls thing ....

 

[AGBF]

She's the next to last positive, thoughtful, and supportive Pricescoper? Deb, I would have placed her at the very front of that category.

Bad, bad Deb!!! Incorrect grammar: the penultimate sin! Oh, wait! I have to stop using that word that way!

 

[Skippy123]

Circe, I love your post!!! Pumping and BFing are the same to me, all hard work. I also read a lot of the studies about bm and ff babies. It seems bm gives babies the edge but not by a crazy amout like some people like to say; I find the studies interesting! I read IQ is by a few points not by a huge amount either.

Ksinger and Deb, you ladies are awesome! thanks for your kind words; I feel the same about you!

 

[Bliss]

Packrat, if you started this thread or even the guy in FHH who is a Foster dad that loves kids started this thread then I think I would respond differently. I respond when I know someone really cares (especially personal threads like this). I think there are so many variables for why people can't bf etc. Heck I know for me my boys were born too dang early and just didn't get it because they were tube fed for too long. I did pump milk for them and I feel good about that but I don't want to come here and read a thread that is in the spirit to start a debate when somehttpone has repeatedly said the don't like kids; that is upsetting to me. If you started this thread I probably would tell more of my story. That is why I told Kenny to get read the pumping thread or the PS Preggo or baby thread, then he might get insight into the US not having long enough leave, etc. I do appreciate the women moms and none moms (like Zoe and others) who did cheer my boys on and also that I could cheer others on for various topics of mommyhood. anyway, I am just rambling but I do feel like we are friends so I thought I would sit down and write something back, hth.

I agree with Skippy 100%. It struck me as odd as well with the ever eloquent Freke putting words to my discomfort with the whole scenario.

*deleted post*

ETA: I genuinely appreciate Kenny's sense of humor as well as his breathtaking photography skills. I believe you are a sensitive soul at heart. Just FYI, Kenny, breast feeding is a very sensitive topic among women. We do or don't nurse for various reasons - physical, emotional, financial and etc. Women feel a range of emotion over this from joy and nurturing to guilt and shame to resentment. It's complicated. So just tread carefully, friend. It's completely OK if you don't like our offspring but please think before you post polarizing threads about how we raise them.

 

[packrat]

Circe, you'll have to explain that to me..does that mean I hate myself for being female? I'm kinda lost on that part I guess. I like being a girl (It's alarming how charming I feeeeel) I liked being pregnant, nursing, having my babies, make up, hair, jewelry, dressing up, shopping, shoes, typical girl stuff,..I dunno quite what to say about it really. Men have "beaten me down" in my life? Is that what it means? I've had POS boyfriends and horrifically traumatic male/female interactions in my life, until I had a couple female friends get it thru my head that I was better than that-you never saw a 5 ft tall girl stand so tall and say "**** you get out of my life I deserve better". I have a husband who scoffs at the "traditional" view of the wife being subject to the husband, tore his mother to shreds when she insisted I stop breast feeding (b/c my milk was SOUR she said), and did everything he could to make it possible for me to nurse as long as I wanted, and has several times gone out of his way to help women nursing in the mall, so I'd say he's pretty "pro girl".

I don't feel like I'm a "typical" woman in that..well, I'm emotional as all get out, but I'm not catty, sitting around gossiping and then oh hiiiii you're so woooonderful when I see you. A lot of people say if you have a bunch of women working together, you're going to have problems, and I maintain that it depends on the women. Not all women are like the generalizations. Just like not all men are like the generalizations. And just b/c I don't think that every man on the planet is trying to assert his authority over women, doesn't mean I'm not proud to be a woman or think women shouldn't be treated equally on things. When I see/hear women acting how *to ME* seems anti male or, if you're not for us you're against us or whatever, it strikes me as acting *like* the generalizations, and I don't see what that gets anyone. I think it just got out of hand here, and I didn't really see the issue, and that makes me even more lost now w/this whole internalized stuff.

The girls on huffy bikes thing actually I got from an episode of Will & Grace and I found it hysterical. Again, it just seems like..people read too much into things that get said, whether they're said from a genuine "I don't get it, help me out here" stand point, or trying to get a laugh and a funny visual in readers heads, and to try and bring some humor into a situation that had escalated. If it looks to me, as a female (I'm on a *girl* kick b/c I've been trying to talk to my almost 9 year old daughter about how girls are, so yes I use the word girl a lot instead of lady or women or female, it doesn't mean anything other than that) that some women are acting in a stereotypical "girl" way, then I just wonder how a guy would interpret that, and I think argh, don't DO that b/c then it just gives them ammunition that "all" women are like that.

Seriously tho..you gotta use Dr. Seuss phrases around me Circe, I don't have enough edumacashun to get those words. One fish two fish red fish blue fish it to me Circe!

 

[Maria D]

Circe, you'll have to explain that to me..does that mean I hate myself for being female? I'm kinda lost on that part I guess. I like being a girl (It's alarming how charming I feeeeel) I liked being pregnant, nursing, having my babies, make up, hair, jewelry, dressing up, shopping, shoes, typical girl stuff,..I dunno quite what to say about it really. Men have "beaten me down" in my life? Is that what it means? I've had POS boyfriends and horrifically traumatic male/female interactions in my life, until I had a couple female friends get it thru my head that I was better than that-you never saw a 5 ft tall girl stand so tall and say "[censored] you get out of my life I deserve better". I have a husband who scoffs at the "traditional" view of the wife being subject to the husband, tore his mother to shreds when she insisted I stop breast feeding (b/c my milk was SOUR she said), and did everything he could to make it possible for me to nurse as long as I wanted, and has several times gone out of his way to help women nursing in the mall, so I'd say he's pretty "pro girl".

I don't feel like I'm a "typical" woman in that..well, I'm emotional as all get out, but I'm not catty, sitting around gossiping and then oh hiiiii you're so woooonderful when I see you. A lot of people say if you have a bunch of women working together, you're going to have problems, and I maintain that it depends on the women. Not all women are like the generalizations. Just like not all men are like the generalizations. And just b/c I don't think that every man on the planet is trying to assert his authority over women, doesn't mean I'm not proud to be a woman or think women shouldn't be treated equally on things. When I see/hear women acting how *to ME* seems anti male or, if you're not for us you're against us or whatever, it strikes me as acting *like* the generalizations, and I don't see what that gets anyone. I think it just got out of hand here, and I didn't really see the issue, and that makes me even more lost now w/this whole internalized stuff.

The girls on huffy bikes thing actually I got from an episode of Will & Grace and I found it hysterical. Again, it just seems like..people read too much into things that get said, whether they're said from a genuine "I don't get it, help me out here" stand point, or trying to get a laugh and a funny visual in readers heads, and to try and bring some humor into a situation that had escalated. If it looks to me, as a female (I'm on a *girl* kick b/c I've been trying to talk to my almost 9 year old daughter about how girls are, so yes I use the word girl a lot instead of lady or women or female, it doesn't mean anything other than that) that some women are acting in a stereotypical "girl" way, then I just wonder how a guy would interpret that, and I think argh, don't DO that b/c then it just gives them ammunition that "all" women are like that.

Seriously tho..you gotta use Dr. Seuss phrases around me Circe, I don't have enough edumacashun to get those words. One fish two fish red fish blue fish it to me Circe!

Packrat, I can relate to the bolded part above -- it really captures my feelings as I read this thread.

I also don't get what's so important about the fact that Kenny dislikes kids. So what? I don't like little kids. Of course I loved my own even when she was an infant/toddler and do a good job putting up with other people's small kids when I have to but I never choose to be around small children. I've never babysat, never changed the diaper for or gave a bottle to a child that wasn't my own. But it would be OK for me to post this thread because I once was a breastfeeder? Oh please.

For me, either the topic is a bad one on its own (lack of) merit or I find it worth discussing. It doesn't matter who started it.

I see a whole lot of net nannying on this thread.

ETA:Bliss, I'm not trying to be offensive but do you realize you don't speak for all women? If I were as thin skinned as some here I would end up being hurt that I was supposed to have all these feelings about breastfeeding when basically I did it because, for me and my baby, it was the easy and CHEAP way out.

 

[Circe]

Circe, you'll have to explain that to me..does that mean I hate myself for being female? I'm kinda lost on that part I guess. I like being a girl (It's alarming how charming I feeeeel) I liked being pregnant, nursing, having my babies, make up, hair, jewelry, dressing up, shopping, shoes, typical girl stuff,..I dunno quite what to say about it really. Men have "beaten me down" in my life? Is that what it means? I've had POS boyfriends and horrifically traumatic male/female interactions in my life, until I had a couple female friends get it thru my head that I was better than that-you never saw a 5 ft tall girl stand so tall and say "[censored] you get out of my life I deserve better". I have a husband who scoffs at the "traditional" view of the wife being subject to the husband, tore his mother to shreds when she insisted I stop breast feeding (b/c my milk was SOUR she said), and did everything he could to make it possible for me to nurse as long as I wanted, and has several times gone out of his way to help women nursing in the mall, so I'd say he's pretty "pro girl".

I don't feel like I'm a "typical" woman in that..well, I'm emotional as all get out, but I'm not catty, sitting around gossiping and then oh hiiiii you're so woooonderful when I see you. A lot of people say if you have a bunch of women working together, you're going to have problems, and I maintain that it depends on the women. Not all women are like the generalizations. Just like not all men are like the generalizations. And just b/c I don't think that every man on the planet is trying to assert his authority over women, doesn't mean I'm not proud to be a woman or think women shouldn't be treated equally on things. When I see/hear women acting how *to ME* seems anti male or, if you're not for us you're against us or whatever, it strikes me as acting *like* the generalizations, and I don't see what that gets anyone. I think it just got out of hand here, and I didn't really see the issue, and that makes me even more lost now w/this whole internalized stuff.

The girls on huffy bikes thing actually I got from an episode of Will & Grace and I found it hysterical. Again, it just seems like..people read too much into things that get said, whether they're said from a genuine "I don't get it, help me out here" stand point, or trying to get a laugh and a funny visual in readers heads, and to try and bring some humor into a situation that had escalated. If it looks to me, as a female (I'm on a *girl* kick b/c I've been trying to talk to my almost 9 year old daughter about how girls are, so yes I use the word girl a lot instead of lady or women or female, it doesn't mean anything other than that) that some women are acting in a stereotypical "girl" way, then I just wonder how a guy would interpret that, and I think argh, don't DO that b/c then it just gives them ammunition that "all" women are like that.

Seriously tho..you gotta use Dr. Seuss phrases around me Circe, I don't have enough edumacashun to get those words. One fish two fish red fish blue fish it to me Circe!

Heheh - case in point of why I love your posts so much! Your Dr. Sesussism's are smarter than most Ph.D.'s I know.

Bottom line is, "patriarchy" as I understand it is less a thing individuals engage in than it is a system we're all subject too - similar to race and class, just with gender subbed in.

So whenever I see phrases that have typically been used to diminish women employed - "bananas" or "hysterical" or, say, "huffy" or anything similar, for example - I get a little antsy. I know when I was still in grad school, I joked that what I needed was a "wife," so I would have time for the traditionally masculine financially successful things, and a friend tore a strip off of me for being sexist. I was trying to talk about the system rather than subscribe to it, and I totally bombed, and I guess that sits at the back of my head in these discussions - the knowledge that even being as well-intentioned as I thought I was, I could totally buy into the status quo. Particularly now that I am a wife, no-scare-quotes, filling a really stereotypically wife-y role, right down to the BFing.

It is unexpectedly hard, to fulfill a role I thought I was going to protest, on principle, because it was unfair to women: it gets more so when I, a) get it on one side for not filling the role well enough (for example, not seeing the BFing thing as a big deal, or not being able to do it "right"), and then again when, b) I get it down the other for filling it "too" well and being all traditional and a traitor to the cause. I find I can take it from other ladies in my position, but I get a little irritated when men opine on these issues: call it mansplaining or what-have-you, but, youch - easy to talk it down when you don't have to do it. And, similarly, when I hear ladies taking the "traditionally" masculine arguments, I guess I just wonder ... did I miss something? Am I doing it wrong?

And every time I do, I realize that, no, I'm not: that's just patriarchy. THAT is the thing that makes us second-guess questioning the way things are. And we all internalize it, to a certain degree - it's just a case of maybe acknowledging it for what it is, when we think, "hey, so what IS wrong with the system?"

Me, I think there's a fair amount wrong with the system, and I have a name for it: I'd like things like equal pay for equal work, and decent maternity leave, and space to pump, and, and, and, AND. I could go on. I don't think individual men have any real voice in keeping those things from me, but I think the system does, because that's the way it's built, and that's how it profits. And, partially, it does so off of making it economically unfeasible for women to take the time they need to BF, or to ask for equal wages after they're done, and it pisses me off. PATRIARCHY.

And partially it plays us off of one another, sometimes via men we care for, sometimes via systems we profit from, sometimes via thing we could never predict. PATRIARCHY, and also, RAGE.

.... it's late enough that I should ask - does that make sense? I hope it does. I know these are contentious topics, and I don't want to make them more so: I just feel like there's not necessarily a way to win on this without delving into this sort of self-explanatory navel-gazing. Hope it's not over-the-top ...

 

[packrat]

Thanks Maria.

Circe..maybe that's why they decided to put me in the preschool here in town for my new job..I'm like a larger child. ha!

Ok..so it's not as bad as I thought..man I went to bed last night thinking I need counseling or something, analyzing my childhood and trying to figure myself out. A lot of what you just said, are things that I thought of when I went to bed last night. I have made comments as well that I need a wife, or that JD married me so he wouldn't have to do things b/c I'm always here to take care of everything. One of my coworkers used to say she wished she had a penis so *she* could sit down and watch tv sometimes too and let everything else slide. I've been saying for years that now that I've been married, I know why some women are gay (and I know it's not a choice but it makes a funny sentiment).."Oh honey nooo let ME do the dishes, you worked all day" "Oh but honey, you did too, here, let's do them together" "I didn't sleep well last night, I'm worried about my job" "I'm sorry honey, let's go sit down and talk about it"

I think it's ridiculous that women now are expected to do all the things we do, not ever frown or be upset about it, and just accept it as "the way it is". Like lets see how much crap we can pile on this woman here before she gets pissed/rebels/crashes under the weight--and then lets all act affronted and gasp dramatically b/c we're so surprised that she is unhappy. "Wow, you mean, you *really* don't want to work 40 hours a week, and put in another 40 hours taking care of the kids and house and cooking and cleaning and laundry and yardwork and bills while I work 40 hours a week and watch sports all weekend or go do guy things w/my guy friends? Gosh..that's such a surprise and comes as a complete shock to me"

The words I use..I use them *because* they're typically used to describe women, or actually, girls. B/c to me, it gives me a visual in my head when I talk/read. If I said "she was acting all pissy and left", that doesn't give the same visual in my head as "she got all pouty and left on her Huffy bike". I like descriptive things that make pictures in my mind I guess..a picture of a grown adult woman, and then superimpose a frowny pouty little girl crossing her arms and "hmph!" and then she rides away..in a huff..on her Huffy. Were this pretend woman *acting* like a woman, I could use an adult-ish phrase like..righteous indignation or some such..but if that pretend woman is acting like a 10 year old, well...When I would come home from work and JD would ask how my day was, I'd say Oh you know, it's an office of 12 year old women, it's amazing any work gets done when they spend all day stabbing each other in the back" and then I put on a little play w/my talking hands on things that were gossiped/whispered/accidentally overheard when I walked around the corner.

The whole "reading into things" makes me think of celebrity photos and how "experts" look at the positioning of the bodies in the picture to say how the relationship is or whatever, and how people have looked at pictures of me and remarked on my secret body language. Except..sometimes the crossed arms are b/c my hands are cold, the frown was caught at a time when my kids were off to the side getting into stuff, I'm leaning away from my husband b/c I have to fart..haha kidding, just seeing if you're paying attention.

I've jokingly asked JD if he wished he could be female so that he could experience being pregnant, having babies, actually enjoying shopping, and he gives me this "look" and says "Fuuuuuuck NO. Anything fun or good is faaaar outweighed by all the stupid *girl* stuff you have to deal with-I don't know how to stab friends in the back and be bitchy to a bunch of people at the same time and still say they're my friends" I say ehhh you'd learn. He's also called it reverse dog years. Being 35 and acting like you're 14 and back in junior high.

Now granted, not ALL women are that way, I know that, it's a generalization. But the sad part is, when women live up to that generalization and perpetuate the stereotype.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Circe, you should hook your husband up to the pump. That's what I did to my sister and husband (separate occasions, of course). They both screamed in pain and looked at me with newfound respect.

 

[lovebug1031]

My interest in this topic is ... this is another topic where taught-shame about what is natural may prevent what is best.

I feel strongly about things where people are made to feel ashamed of things in which there is no shame.

THIS!!! I actually have a gfwho is due i less than two weeks time, she thinks its absolutely DISGUSTING to breast feed! I've tried to explain to her all of the benefits for both her and the baby...she doesn't wanna hear any of it! I think its crazy, and I think the main difference is education. People with lower education levels are less willing to research things on their own, such as breast feeding or inductions!

 

[Scorpioanne]

I haven't read the thread and I am sorry if I offend anyone but what percentage of the population in each state has post-secondary education? IIR mums who are better educated tend to breastfeed and for longer. Not to brag or anything but my son was breastfed for 3 years - he grew up to be an engineer!

 

[ksinger]

I haven't read the thread and I am sorry if I offend anyone but what percentage of the population in each state has post-secondary education? IIR mums who are better educated tend to breastfeed and for longer. Not to brag or anything but my son was breastfed for 3 years - he grew up to be an engineer!

And not to be too picky, but to equate breastfeeding at one end (no matter how admirable) to engineer at the other is a SERIOUS SERIOUS stretch. School success is pretty closely correlated with the educational and income level of the parents, not breastfeeding.

 

[Maria D]

I haven't read the thread and I am sorry if I offend anyone but what percentage of the population in each state has post-secondary education? IIR mums who are better educated tend to breastfeed and for longer. Not to brag or anything but my son was breastfed for 3 years - he grew up to be an engineer!

oh big deal, I grew up to be an engineer and was bottle fed Never had an ear infection either!

lovebug, I breastfed my own daughter but I never tried to convince anyone that they should do the same. I didn't care if people were disgusted by it AS LONG AS they didn't get in *my* way of b-fing wherever and whenever I chose to.