Why is it ok...

[waterlilly]

Waterlily, I'm not going to continue debating because I'm content to agree to disagree. I respect your opinions because I don't think you're ignorant...we just fall in different sides of the fence.

To be clear, however, conformation is not based on "looks". Breed standards are developed for the purpose of the dog. If a dog does not meet those standards, then the breeder isn't bettering the breed by keeping that dog in her lines. I'm the first to argue that I think health clearances are about 100x more important than whether a dog is 27" at the withers vs. 28", and I personally seek out working lines for my dogs because that is what I care about, but the basis of conformation has little to do with looks.

Actually, to be clear - conformation is based SOLELY on the external appearance of the dog. Conformation is an evaluation of breed standards...what about a breed standard has anything to do with a dogs ability to physically perform a function? Breed standards describe the outward appearance of a dog, period.

Here is a blurb regarding exactly what I was just talking about:

Criticism of dog showing

See also: Pedigree Dogs Exposed
The practice of breeding dogs for conformation showing has become a subject of intense debate. Some critics state that conformation shows lead to selecting of breeding dogs based solely upon appearance, which is seen by some as being detrimental to working qualities and at worst as promotion of eugenics.[11]
In the United States some working dog breed organizations, such as the American Border Collie Association and the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America, have put a considerable amount of effort in the fight to keep their breeds from being recognized by the AKC and some other kennel clubs,[12] as they fear that introduction of their breeds to the show ring will lead to decreasing numbers of working dogs with adequate qualities.
In August 2008, BBC1 televised a documentary film titled Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which investigated the subject of health issues affecting pedigree dogs in the United Kingdom, with a particular emphasis on dogs bred for showing. The programme provoked an unprecedented response from both the public and the dog-breeding community, with widespread criticism directed at the Kennel Club. Since the broadcast, the BBC has withdrawn its television coverage of Crufts dog show in 2009, with other sponsors and partners also withdrawing their support, including Pedigree Petfoods, the RSPCA, PDSA and the Dog's Trust. In response to the programme, the Kennel Club in the UK announced a review of all breed standards, with the long-term goal being to eradicate hereditary health concerns. Most notably, they will impose a ban on breeding between dogs that are closely related and will impose greater monitoring to prevent unhealthy dogs from being entered for and winning awards at dog shows.

Conformation determines an animal's ability to perform based on human judgment of qualities that enhance performance. A short dog with short legs and heavy body is not going to be able to jump as high as a taller dog with a more refined body. A bassett hound will never run as fast as a greyhound due to body structure, conformation. A thoroughbred race horse will not be able to trot like a saddle seat horse because it's built differently. A house cat will not be able to take down a full sized gazelle because it's conformation is not made for large animal hunting. What about that is solely about looks to you? Breed standards are developed based upon common characteristics of a breed that not only make them unique, but give them their abilities to do certain jobs.


And I was referencing your quotes about dogs not being able to be trained to have good manners around each other when in heat. An intact male animal can be trained to have good manners just like a 1200lb horse can as well. I'll stand by that. I've seen male dogs around females in heat that behaved perfectly fine for their owners. It is called training and discipline. I'm sorry YOU haven't seen it in YOUR experience, but you aren't working in ALL venues of dog breeding and ownership either now are you.

Waterlily - I feel like you have a lot of expertise IN YOUR AREA, but just like you say Deb cannot make general statements based on her area of experience, you cannot make general statements about the entire dog world based on JUST your experience. Until you've seen every dog there is in the nation (I'll edit this to say world since some of us are international), you cannot say that NO INTACT MALE DOG can be trained to behave around a female in heat while not on a leash. I understand you are passionate about the subject because you have to deal with the repercussions of irresponsible breeders, but you are also quick to note how wrong the rest of the world is when yourself may not be right.

What do you know about what "my area" is? I told you one aspect of my involvement with dogs.

Funny you should mention bassets, here is a link you might find interesting: http://www.virginmedia.com/homefamily/pets/10-scandalous-dog-breeds.php?ssid=1

 

[waterlilly]

Waterlily, I'm not going to continue debating because I'm content to agree to disagree. I respect your opinions because I don't think you're ignorant...we just fall in different sides of the fence.

To be clear, however, conformation is not based on "looks". Breed standards are developed for the purpose of the dog. If a dog does not meet those standards, then the breeder isn't bettering the breed by keeping that dog in her lines. I'm the first to argue that I think health clearances are about 100x more important than whether a dog is 27" at the withers vs. 28", and I personally seek out working lines for my dogs because that is what I care about, but the basis of conformation has little to do with looks.

Actually, to be clear - conformation is based SOLELY on the external appearance of the dog. Conformation is an evaluation of breed standards...what about a breed standard has anything to do with a dogs ability to physically perform a function? Breed standards describe the outward appearance of a dog, period.

Here is a blurb regarding exactly what I was just talking about:

Criticism of dog showing

See also: Pedigree Dogs Exposed
The practice of breeding dogs for conformation showing has become a subject of intense debate. Some critics state that conformation shows lead to selecting of breeding dogs based solely upon appearance, which is seen by some as being detrimental to working qualities and at worst as promotion of eugenics.[11]
In the United States some working dog breed organizations, such as the American Border Collie Association and the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America, have put a considerable amount of effort in the fight to keep their breeds from being recognized by the AKC and some other kennel clubs,[12] as they fear that introduction of their breeds to the show ring will lead to decreasing numbers of working dogs with adequate qualities.
In August 2008, BBC1 televised a documentary film titled Pedigree Dogs Exposed, which investigated the subject of health issues affecting pedigree dogs in the United Kingdom, with a particular emphasis on dogs bred for showing. The programme provoked an unprecedented response from both the public and the dog-breeding community, with widespread criticism directed at the Kennel Club. Since the broadcast, the BBC has withdrawn its television coverage of Crufts dog show in 2009, with other sponsors and partners also withdrawing their support, including Pedigree Petfoods, the RSPCA, PDSA and the Dog's Trust. In response to the programme, the Kennel Club in the UK announced a review of all breed standards, with the long-term goal being to eradicate hereditary health concerns. Most notably, they will impose a ban on breeding between dogs that are closely related and will impose greater monitoring to prevent unhealthy dogs from being entered for and winning awards at dog shows.

Conformation determines an animal's ability to perform based on human judgment of qualities that enhance performance. A short dog with short legs and heavy body is not going to be able to jump as high as a taller dog with a more refined body. A bassett hound will never run as fast as a greyhound due to body structure, conformation. A thoroughbred race horse will not be able to trot like a saddle seat horse because it's built differently. A house cat will not be able to take down a full sized gazelle because it's conformation is not made for large animal hunting. What about that is solely about looks to you? Breed standards are developed based upon common characteristics of a breed that not only make them unique, but give them their abilities to do certain jobs.


And I was referencing your quotes about dogs not being able to be trained to have good manners around each other when in heat. An intact male animal can be trained to have good manners just like a 1200lb horse can as well. I'll stand by that. I've seen male dogs around females in heat that behaved perfectly fine for their owners. It is called training and discipline. I'm sorry YOU haven't seen it in YOUR experience, but you aren't working in ALL venues of dog breeding and ownership either now are you.

Waterlily - I feel like you have a lot of expertise IN YOUR AREA, but just like you say Deb cannot make general statements based on her area of experience, you cannot make general statements about the entire dog world based on JUST your experience. Until you've seen every dog there is in the nation (I'll edit this to say world since some of us are international), you cannot say that NO INTACT MALE DOG can be trained to behave around a female in heat while not on a leash. I understand you are passionate about the subject because you have to deal with the repercussions of irresponsible breeders, but you are also quick to note how wrong the rest of the world is when yourself may not be right.

What do you know about what "my area" is? I told you one aspect of my involvement with dogs.

Funny you should mention bassets, here is a link you might find interesting: http://www.virginmedia.com/homefamily/pets/10-scandalous-dog-breeds.php?ssid=1

 

[dragonfly411]

I'm going based on what you have told us, that you work in rescue. You have never stated that you breed, nor could you possibly breed every breed of dog that there is, or work in every venue of dogs that there is. Ranchers breed dogs that work cattle, some breeders breed animals for show, some to work sheep, some to guard chickens, some to tug ropes, some to point birds, some to chase deer, and some to be cuddly lap dogs. Everyone has a different area that they specialize in. I have done my own share of rescuing, rehab, and keep companion dogs. Deb has companion dogs. Some here might breed. Each is specialized, but none of us is an expert in EVERY area. That's just what I meant.

I used bassets b/c my mom has one. Don't get me started on HIS breeder.

Read the article. Several very true issues in there. My mom's basset was sold to her as being vet checked healthy but had a genetic (and non generation skipping) skin disorder that basically makes him allergic to just about everything outside. He takes steroids, is only given oatmeal baths, and has to have all natural flea control.

 

[waterlilly]

Waterlily - That's where aesthetics DO come into play, but that doesn't mean that conformation is based solely on aesthetics. Conformation's emphasis will depend on the breeder and whether they dedicate themselves to conformation that is useful or a show ring aesthetic. Two different things.

Well, since the reputation of a breeder lies in their ability to title their dogs - they will breed for success in the ring. This is what separates them from back yard breeders. And until the breed clubs recognize that the health of breeds should be the #1 concern when setting standards, breeders will continue to breed for the physical appearance that wins a title.

 

[dragonfly411]

Waterlily - That's where aesthetics DO come into play, but that doesn't mean that conformation is based solely on aesthetics. Conformation's emphasis will depend on the breeder and whether they dedicate themselves to conformation that is useful or a show ring aesthetic. Two different things.

Well, since the reputation of a breeder lies in their ability to title their dogs - they will breed for success in the ring. This is what separates them from back yard breeders. And until the breed clubs recognize that the health of breeds should be the #1 concern when setting standards, breeders will continue to breed for the physical appearance that wins a title.

Agreed. The true to standard breeders (at least to me) are the ones who are breeding for both aspects. They're breeding for the build that is true to breed standard and meant to do the job. It's the same in horses, and horses also have the same problems. Take a look at quarter horse halter versus different areas of performance. The same is to be said for arabians. It's unfortunate to see. Cattle breeders seem to stay true to form, and swine seem to stay consistent as well, but their shows aren't as large scale.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Waterlily - That's where aesthetics DO come into play, but that doesn't mean that conformation is based solely on aesthetics. Conformation's emphasis will depend on the breeder and whether they dedicate themselves to conformation that is useful or a show ring aesthetic. Two different things.

Well, since the reputation of a breeder lies in their ability to title their dogs - they will breed for success in the ring. This is what separates them from back yard breeders. And until the breed clubs recognize that the health of breeds should be the #1 concern when setting standards, breeders will continue to breed for the physical appearance that wins a title.

A good breeder would never breed solely on success in the ring. I know many breeders whom I admire very much. All of them breed with health being the top priority. Then temperament. THEN conformation. Even within the upper echelon of breeders, there is a lot of argument over lines. Over health. Over working lines vs. those that typically do well in the ring. I'm a Landseer owner, so I do understand, but I can tell you that not one breeder that I know only looks at whether a dog has his CH title or not. Great breeders want to produce great dogs...most of them have dedicated their lives to it.

 

[MonkeyPie]

I have to wonder, waterlily, about what happened to make you so incredibly combative towards breeders.

 

[AGBF]

Defame her? You just confirmed exactly what I said! I don't want to bash breeders, because in the scheme of things - reputable breeders are not part of the problem in terms of overpopulation. But, "breeding" dogs is a sport, and full of questions regarding ethics as far as I'm concerned. He was an item to her, he lived outside in a kennel with no training - for 16 months. He wasn't up to standard as far as looks go, so she got rid of him. Am I bashing her by saying that?? I only know this because you said so! Is this bashing? No! This is simply par for the course in the world of breeding.

As you said - she breeds to improve the outward appearance of the breed, she didn't think he was big enough - so isn't going to breed him. I'll say it again, Breed Standards have nothing to do with health, nothing. Do some research on Cavalier KC spaniels - how champion dogs are wrought with genetic defects - but nothing is done to eliminate them because it would effect the outward appearance of the dog, take a look at what breeders have done to German Shepherds or Pugs in this country. When people say they fear neutering a dog - especially a pedigreed dog - because they worry about the health issues it would cause, I shake my head. How is there such a disconnect? Many dogs look nothing like their healthy ancestors, we have molded and shaped their looks with no regard to their health.

My breeder is not responsible for the sins that were visited upon Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, something which sounds truly reprehensible.

I have read (although, not being an expert, I am willing to hear an opposing opinion on this if you have one), that breeders of Dobermans in the United States voluntarily bred out overt aggression taken by dogs without provocation, leaving American Dobermans less aggressive than Dobermans in Europe and in South America.

But my breeder tests for genetic diseases that the AKC does not require her to test for, not only Cystinuria, for which she tests every dog, but also a Coat Color DNA Test which, as she explained it, she does because if genes for a grey coat are passed down future dogs may have skin issues. That is a health concern, not just an appearance issue.

I find my breeder very concerned about the health of her dogs. She discussed their exercise, their vitamins, their food, and their skin with what I saw as great concern.

AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[Imdanny]

Personal reason # 1,763 for having a female cat spayed at 9 weeks.

Edit, I mean the humping thing.

 

[Imdanny]

do I have a right to have opinions on whether male Newfoundlands should be altered or don't I?

Of course you have every right to make any and all health decisions regarding your dog. Good for you.