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Why don''t red states walk the walk?

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swimmer

Ideal_Rock
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Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I'm just wondering which of these "hands out" states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan's trickle down theories to kick in.
 

movie zombie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
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Date: 2/23/2009 6:36:03 PM
Author:swimmer
Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I''m just wondering which of these ''hands out'' states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan''s trickle down theories to kick in.
or perhaps they should just eat cake.......

mz
 

ksinger

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
5,078
Date: 2/23/2009 8:55:06 PM
Author: movie zombie

Date: 2/23/2009 6:36:03 PM
Author:swimmer
Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I''m just wondering which of these ''hands out'' states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan''s trickle down theories to kick in.
or perhaps they should just eat cake.......

mz
We COULD. I doubt that anyone on either coast would be eating cake or bread or beef or corn without us. I know you don''t mean it that way MZ, but honestly, I do feel at times that the people who live on the coasts and/or have never been here, dismiss us rather too easily as a monolithic "THOSE guys in the RED states". I criticize my own state quite heavily, but I still live here because there is much good here along with the things that make me roll my eyes in frustration.

The reason the red states'' disconnect is that they ARE poorer, due to the rural nature of the place. I live in a very poor one indeed. Farmers don''t do it for the big bonuses, you know? They do it because their daddy and granddaddy did it. But it''s a very very hard life, even today. Why do you think so many of them have sold out in recent decades to the mega-producers? The small farmer is almost gone, and the oil dried up here years ago. The small towns are POOR now, in most instances. I was in fact commenting on that very thing when the DH and I drove recently out to Kingfisher OK. The towns we went through just looked GRIM. Far more grim and run down than I remember as a child. We just don''t have the density of population that gives a state like NY a massive tax base. And the distance! It''s one thing to pass through, and to consider the "wide open spaces", another thing to navigate them. There''s a reason people out here so strongly opposed the 55 mph laws. You''ll die of old age and boredom before you GET anywhere. I know whenever I see maps of the east coast, I am just astonished at how SHORT the distances are. I think (as naively in my way as any New Yorker considering the West): Oh, how quaint.

I guess that doesn''t explain why we "don''t walk the walk" though, does it? Most of it is bravado I''d say. At the end of the day, we take the money because we must.
 

movie zombie

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i grew up in the central valley when it was dotted with small family farms. our family had 10 acres....working acres. those days were gone many years ago when the corporations/industrial farm groups came in and bought tracts of land. small farmers could not compete and pulled their orchards. you can't find a fay elberta peach anywhere when there was acre after acre of them. the small farms/ranches are either now almonds or pasture. the larger tracts of land in what is known as the san joaquin valley were bought up by the large corporations so long ago that it is rare to fiind a family owned farm now. industrial farming practices with machines picking tomatoes, cotton and other crops. that was in the 1960's. if one goes hiking in the hills of the south bay area up behind cupertino, san jose, etc., you can still find the remanents of old apricot orchards [trees still struggling to survive] on the hillsides. california wasn't always the industrial hub its become but very agriculturally based. when i was in grade school we were taught that the central valley was the breadbasket of the world because of the abundance of crops and variety of crops. no longer.

none of that is relevant other than to say that many of us do come from an agricultural base and do not look down on the way of life of the red states [or the poor], only their penchant for voting against their own best interests....and still accepting grants made possible by the taxes of those of us in blue states. red states bemoan the lack of morals in the blue states, call us liberals and commies but they are more than willing accept our tax dollars: in effect, they are welfare recipients of a centralized government that they purport to abhor. it is that hypocracy that is hard to bear.

my mother still has family through the midwest so that means so do i.....so don't take any of the above personal: it applies to my family as well.

mz

ps i grew up working class poor. not everyone in cali was born with a silver spoon in her mouth......although i was born blond and did tan beautifully each summer! of course, doing all that farm labor to help the family make ends meet and being a part of the lower end of the food chain that put food on the tables of people all across the US might have had something to do with getting that tan...........
 

AllieGator

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I'm from a Rich Northeastern State (New York), but I grew up in the extreme north of the state. It's very rural, with poor education levels, and a very high unemployment rate, even before the current economic condition, so I've seen first hand where social programs go.

That being said, I can't believe how some of the republican critics of the new stimulus plan, and any other federal money, rip apart social welfare programs, when their own constituents are the ones who use them the most. Having seen what happens to farmers and other lower income positions, I understand the importance of these programs for those who really need them. I don't think these politicians would like it very much if all of a sudden their state members were losing all of this aid which helps farmers and the like during these times, and any other time when they need the help.

If they are truly concerned about the welfare of the people they serve, I think if they choose to criticize the choices made by the new Administration and congress, they should be prepared with another plan that will serve their constituents just as well, and not take away from other parts of the country. When they do this instead of just blasting something that the "darn liberals" (to quote my 90 year old grandfather who yearns for Ronald Reagan) have come up with, I will be glad to hear it.

Edited to add: I apologize for all of the run on sentences...but I'm on page 13 of a 20 page mid-term paper, so my brain is a little frazzled right now!
 

ksinger

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Date: 2/23/2009 11:37:07 PM
Author: movie zombie
i grew up in the central valley when it was dotted with small family farms. our family had 10 acres....working acres. those days were gone many years ago when the corporations/industrial farm groups came in and bought tracts of land. small farmers could not compete and pulled their orchards. you can''t find a fay elberta peach anywhere when there was acre after acre of them. the small farms/ranches are either now almonds or pasture. the larger tracts of land in what is known as the san joaquin valley were bought up by the large corporations so long ago that it is rare to fiind a family owned farm now. industrial farming practices with machines picking tomatoes, cotton and other crops. that was in the 1960''s. if one goes hiking in the hills of the south bay area up behind cupertino, san jose, etc., you can still find the remanents of old apricot orchards [trees still struggling to survive] on the hillsides. california wasn''t always the industrial hub its become but very agriculturally based. when i was in grade school we were taught that the central valley was the breadbasket of the world because of the abundance of crops and variety of crops. no longer.

none of that is relevant other than to say that many of us do come from an agricultural base and do not look down on the way of life of the red states [or the poor], only their penchant for voting against their own best interests....and still accepting grants made possible by the taxes of those of us in blue states. red states bemoan the lack of morals in the blue states, call us liberals and commies but they are more than willing accept our tax dollars: in effect, they are welfare recipients of a centralized government that they purport to abhor. it is that hypocracy that is hard to bear.

my mother still has family through the midwest so that means so do i.....so don''t take any of the above personal: it applies to my family as well.

mz

ps i grew up working class poor. not everyone in cali was born with a silver spoon in her mouth......although i was born blond and did tan beautifully each summer! of course, doing all that farm labor to help the family make ends meet and being a part of the lower end of the food chain that put food on the tables of people all across the US might have had something to do with getting that tan...........
I don''t take it personally. You may understand, but there are many in these threads who probably don''t understand it at all. And agriculture aside, there are other factors at play that California has never had to the degree we do here in the center. Please do remember that even in a "red state" like Oklahoma (my god, how I HATE those pigeonholing designations!), there IS some diversity of opinion about things. Maybe the money is accepted because behind the scenes at the state level, there are battles. Perhaps we aren''t the group of lockstepping whirly-eyed followers that we are often accused of being. A "state" does not call you names, or accuse you of bad morals. Individuals do. It''s just a generalization that is too broad for me to accept, you know?

As for Oklahoma, yes, there are some real winners here, to make a decent person cringe. People at the state level like Bill Graves and Sally Kearns, and at the national level like Jim Inhofe. I''M certainly not going to defend THEIR words. But their words, while broadcast around a bunch, do NOT speak for us all.
 

movie zombie

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no a state does not call one names but its politicians do as well as its citizens and in return we on the coasts do the same. not right in either case. but to be clear, california has its share of things it has to deal with that the center states do not. we''re not the pot of instant riches and easy living that so many think until they get here.

my husband''s best friend lives in OK.....and he''s certainly a liberal. not sure how he does it at times and neither is he [but he usually makes it to the west coast several times a year and to europe as well due to his employer however its usually sans the wife and kids]. he mostly telecommutes because he wants his kids raised in the environment he was: even OK can produce liberals.

again, its the disconnect that is irksome. while you and others "get it", so many others do not and unfortunately i run into them on the internet all the time.

mz
 

MoonWater

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Date: 2/23/2009 9:41:27 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 2/23/2009 8:55:06 PM
Author: movie zombie


Date: 2/23/2009 6:36:03 PM
Author:swimmer
Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I''m just wondering which of these ''hands out'' states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan''s trickle down theories to kick in.
or perhaps they should just eat cake.......

mz
We COULD. I doubt that anyone on either coast would be eating cake or bread or beef or corn without us. I know you don''t mean it that way MZ, but honestly, I do feel at times that the people who live on the coasts and/or have never been here, dismiss us rather too easily as a monolithic ''THOSE guys in the RED states''. I criticize my own state quite heavily, but I still live here because there is much good here along with the things that make me roll my eyes in frustration.

The reason the red states'' disconnect is that they ARE poorer, due to the rural nature of the place. I live in a very poor one indeed. Farmers don''t do it for the big bonuses, you know? They do it because their daddy and granddaddy did it. But it''s a very very hard life, even today. Why do you think so many of them have sold out in recent decades to the mega-producers? The small farmer is almost gone, and the oil dried up here years ago. The small towns are POOR now, in most instances. I was in fact commenting on that very thing when the DH and I drove recently out to Kingfisher OK. The towns we went through just looked GRIM. Far more grim and run down than I remember as a child. We just don''t have the density of population that gives a state like NY a massive tax base. And the distance! It''s one thing to pass through, and to consider the ''wide open spaces'', another thing to navigate them. There''s a reason people out here so strongly opposed the 55 mph laws. You''ll die of old age and boredom before you GET anywhere. I know whenever I see maps of the east coast, I am just astonished at how SHORT the distances are. I think (as naively in my way as any New Yorker considering the West): Oh, how quaint.

I guess that doesn''t explain why we ''don''t walk the walk'' though, does it? Most of it is bravado I''d say. At the end of the day, we take the money because we must.
It sounds like those farmers are the equivalent of those folks that thought they could retire from the auto industry like their fathers and grandfather''s did. People need to learn when its time to move on and pick up new skills. Things aren''t how they use to be and we need to adjust instead of becoming bitter and bitching about it.
 

Cleopatra

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Moonwater - what skills would you suggest a farmer who''s been farming for approximately 50 years to pick up? I''m not quite understanding your post? Do you want to rely on foreign countries for not only cars, but your food as well?
 

MoonWater

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Date: 2/24/2009 4:04:10 PM
Author: Cleopatra
Moonwater - what skills would you suggest a farmer who''s been farming for approximately 50 years to pick up? I''m not quite understanding your post? Do you want to rely on foreign countries for not only cars, but your food as well?
I think it''s obvious that certain industries will not sustain themselves, hell looking at history there are a few that went bust. I do not understand why people believe that current industries will last forever. I feel bad for the guy that''s been farming for 50 years, I do not feel bad for the 25 year old who thinks he''s going to do what his dad and grandpa did. I think parents should be more aware of their industry and teach their kids that they should find another means of survival. Following in your parents footsteps is not always an option.

Also, the problem wasn''t that the food was coming from foreign countries, it was that large compnaies (some in the US) have the means of mass producing in ways that small farmers do not. They are undercutting them. This has been happening for quite some time and I would hope the younger folks do not expect to survive as farmers (or auto workers).
 

movie zombie

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Date: 2/24/2009 4:04:10 PM
Author: Cleopatra
Moonwater - what skills would you suggest a farmer who''s been farming for approximately 50 years to pick up? I''m not quite understanding your post? Do you want to rely on foreign countries for not only cars, but your food as well?
we do rely on foreign countries for food. you''d be surprised at how much in mainstream markets comes from outside this country....including meat.

the midwest has been hit hard. i had family members that worked in a pontiac plant. all gone years ago. there was a big shoe factory work force in the 1940''s. all gone years ago. mechanization and industrialization of our food has been going on a long time. much like the 50 year old auto worker who had to move on and find other employment, farmers will have to do the same. doesn''t mean i approve or like it. its just the reality.

mz
 

vespergirl

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Date: 2/24/2009 3:29:40 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 2/23/2009 9:41:27 PM
Author: ksinger


Date: 2/23/2009 8:55:06 PM
Author: movie zombie



Date: 2/23/2009 6:36:03 PM
Author:swimmer
Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I''m just wondering which of these ''hands out'' states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan''s trickle down theories to kick in.
or perhaps they should just eat cake.......

mz
We COULD. I doubt that anyone on either coast would be eating cake or bread or beef or corn without us. I know you don''t mean it that way MZ, but honestly, I do feel at times that the people who live on the coasts and/or have never been here, dismiss us rather too easily as a monolithic ''THOSE guys in the RED states''. I criticize my own state quite heavily, but I still live here because there is much good here along with the things that make me roll my eyes in frustration.

The reason the red states'' disconnect is that they ARE poorer, due to the rural nature of the place. I live in a very poor one indeed. Farmers don''t do it for the big bonuses, you know? They do it because their daddy and granddaddy did it. But it''s a very very hard life, even today. Why do you think so many of them have sold out in recent decades to the mega-producers? The small farmer is almost gone, and the oil dried up here years ago. The small towns are POOR now, in most instances. I was in fact commenting on that very thing when the DH and I drove recently out to Kingfisher OK. The towns we went through just looked GRIM. Far more grim and run down than I remember as a child. We just don''t have the density of population that gives a state like NY a massive tax base. And the distance! It''s one thing to pass through, and to consider the ''wide open spaces'', another thing to navigate them. There''s a reason people out here so strongly opposed the 55 mph laws. You''ll die of old age and boredom before you GET anywhere. I know whenever I see maps of the east coast, I am just astonished at how SHORT the distances are. I think (as naively in my way as any New Yorker considering the West): Oh, how quaint.

I guess that doesn''t explain why we ''don''t walk the walk'' though, does it? Most of it is bravado I''d say. At the end of the day, we take the money because we must.
It sounds like those farmers are the equivalent of those folks that thought they could retire from the auto industry like their fathers and grandfather''s did. People need to learn when its time to move on and pick up new skills. Things aren''t how they use to be and we need to adjust instead of becoming bitter and bitching about it.
Ditto Moonwater. First of all, because of farm subsidies, farmers, who frequently vote Republican, receive some of the largest welfare (subsidy) handouts in the country. If there are no jobs there, move somewhere where there are jobs. Same for the auto industry workers. Sorry, but people with barely a high school education who screw together widgets all day shouldn''t be making $80K a year in my book, when the average educated school teacher makes a quarter that. The auto workers union demanded too much, and now their workers are paying for it. Notice that Toyota plants aren''t going out if business. I live in VA, a few miles from DC, and there are plenty of service/fast food/hospitality jobs available. There are jobs for people who want to work, you may just have to move to find work, like people have done since the beginning of time. There are thousands of Mexicans who live in our area who come for the work - work Americans could be doing, if they weren''t sitting around feeling sorry for themselves. If my parents could travel from Yugoslavia to NY to find work, I''m sure that people can travel from Appalachia to VA for work. When I mentioned this recently on another thread, someone said that metropolitan areas are expensive to live in. Well, we have a lot of poor people living in our area - humble housing, yes, but near work. Because of the public transportaion available in urban areas, having a car isn''t a necessity.

Back to Appalachia, Diane Sawyer recently did a 20/20 special on the economically depressed state of that region. It was unbelievable to see children saying that they did have enough to eat, yet their parents were all smoking cigarettes (a luxury item that they could all apparently afford), and this one child had a grandmother who seemed to weigh about 250, so obviously there''s enough food in the home to have obese family members. They also have plenty of money for junk food and Mountain Dew. Upon further investigation, it was discovered that the most prosperous local coal mine had many entry-level miner positions to fill, and the average coal mining job paid a starting salary of $65K with benefits and pension. However, not enough men in the region were interested in the jobs, and those who were usually didn''t pass the drug tests to qualify. Why get an honest, excellect paying job when you can sit around collecting welfare and getting high.

I live in northern VA, and we have the same issue the OP discusses on the state-wide level. The NOVA area raises 75% of the state''s revenue, but the almost all of our tax dollars go to all the poor districts in the southern and mountain parts of our state. Our hard-earned dollars are going to pay for their roads and schools - even though they are always voting against the NOVA politicians in the state legislature, they are happy to stick their hands out when they need money for their roads, schools and hospitals. There has long been a movement for northern VA to secede from the rest of the state, but us bleeding hearts who vote Democrat up north would never do it because we would feel sorry for the conservatives in the rest of the state who would perish in a year without our money.
 

fleur-de-lis

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Date: 2/23/2009 9:41:27 PM
Author: ksinger
Date: 2/23/2009 8:55:06 PM

Author: movie zombie


Date: 2/23/2009 6:36:03 PM

Author:swimmer

Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I'm just wondering which of these 'hands out' states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan's trickle down theories to kick in.
or perhaps they should just eat cake.......


mz
We COULD. I doubt that anyone on either coast would be eating cake or bread or beef or corn without us. I know you don't mean it that way MZ, but honestly, I do feel at times that the people who live on the coasts and/or have never been here, dismiss us rather too easily as a monolithic 'THOSE guys in the RED states'. I criticize my own state quite heavily, but I still live here because there is much good here along with the things that make me roll my eyes in frustration.


The reason the red states' disconnect is that they ARE poorer, due to the rural nature of the place. (...)
Ksinger, as a person who currently lives in California, pride in my home state compels me to point something out about my, err, blue state (before you dismiss it 'monolithically'
). California currently has over 28 MILLION acres of dedicated farmland (Clickable link: USDA Fact Sheet on CA ), and nearly 90% of the farms here are "small farms" 500 acres or less. Beef is huge here, and in fact CA puts out over 20% of the dairy products of the entire United States. So.... don't dismiss *our* understanding of agrarian culture just because we've been voting against politicians with the last name of "Bush" since the 90s, missy!


That said, I have to say that I dislike the spirit behind the OP's article. Our country is strong because we are able to be successful on many fronts; our ports on either side of a continent allows a high degree of international trade, and the mere size of the continent allows many different ecosystems to support a large variety of food products to be grown. Temporary weakness in one can be managed in tough times by strength in the other if we're not stupid enough to be distracted by attempts to create an internal xenophobia of our fellow citizens. If uncommon and unpredictable credit freezes are disrupting midwestern farmers' ability to produce and/or harvest food that will both feed my family on the West Coast as well as children in the Deep South, I am grateful that a limited channel of unfrozen credit exists and logic dictates that it should be available to channels where it can do the most good IRRELEVANT of an individuals' lever-pulling decisions on election day.

Philosophically speaking, I hate articles that aim to pit one citizen against another using terms like blue state/red state; it doesn't serve the country, and it certainly doesn't serve the individual. It only serves to create a fear (of others) that entrenches party politics, make us so angry at each other that we suspend rational thought, and close our minds.

I'll get off the soapbox now.
 

NewEnglandLady

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Date: 2/23/2009 9:41:27 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 2/23/2009 8:55:06 PM
Author: movie zombie


Date: 2/23/2009 6:36:03 PM
Author:swimmer
Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I''m just wondering which of these ''hands out'' states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan''s trickle down theories to kick in.
or perhaps they should just eat cake.......

mz
We COULD. I doubt that anyone on either coast would be eating cake or bread or beef or corn without us. I know you don''t mean it that way MZ, but honestly, I do feel at times that the people who live on the coasts and/or have never been here, dismiss us rather too easily as a monolithic ''THOSE guys in the RED states''. I criticize my own state quite heavily, but I still live here because there is much good here along with the things that make me roll my eyes in frustration.

The reason the red states'' disconnect is that they ARE poorer, due to the rural nature of the place. I live in a very poor one indeed. Farmers don''t do it for the big bonuses, you know? They do it because their daddy and granddaddy did it. But it''s a very very hard life, even today. Why do you think so many of them have sold out in recent decades to the mega-producers? The small farmer is almost gone, and the oil dried up here years ago. The small towns are POOR now, in most instances. I was in fact commenting on that very thing when the DH and I drove recently out to Kingfisher OK. The towns we went through just looked GRIM. Far more grim and run down than I remember as a child. We just don''t have the density of population that gives a state like NY a massive tax base. And the distance! It''s one thing to pass through, and to consider the ''wide open spaces'', another thing to navigate them. There''s a reason people out here so strongly opposed the 55 mph laws. You''ll die of old age and boredom before you GET anywhere. I know whenever I see maps of the east coast, I am just astonished at how SHORT the distances are. I think (as naively in my way as any New Yorker considering the West): Oh, how quaint.

I guess that doesn''t explain why we ''don''t walk the walk'' though, does it? Most of it is bravado I''d say. At the end of the day, we take the money because we must.
KSinger, I agree. When I go back to my farming home town it makes me very sad--before farms became corporate-owned, a small-town farmer could provide for his family. If you look at the price for a bushel of corn or wheat, you can see that they really aren''t any higher than they were 80 years ago. Heck, wheat sold for $3 a bushel in the 1780''s and it''s not any higher today! The price of crops is the only thing that hasn''t inflated over the decades, though the cost TO farm has significantly increased!

My own parents had to stop farming on their small farm--my father started working in a combine plant and my mother went into insurance, but I find it very sad that there is no place for a small farmer anymore and am a little terrified that a.) we import so much of our food and b.) that corporations are taking over the farming industry.

I don''t think it''s the PEOPLE in the red states who aren''t walking the walk, it''s the fact that the red states are run by politicians who only care about advancing their personal agendas and lining their pockets so they can get re-elected. I would LOOOVE if they walked the walk--unfortunately I think the only elected official who would do it is Ron Paul.
 

ksinger

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Date: 2/24/2009 7:13:29 PM
Author: fleur-de-lis

Date: 2/23/2009 9:41:27 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 2/23/2009 8:55:06 PM

Author: movie zombie



Date: 2/23/2009 6:36:03 PM

Author:swimmer

Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I''m just wondering which of these ''hands out'' states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan''s trickle down theories to kick in.
or perhaps they should just eat cake.......


mz
We COULD. I doubt that anyone on either coast would be eating cake or bread or beef or corn without us. I know you don''t mean it that way MZ, but honestly, I do feel at times that the people who live on the coasts and/or have never been here, dismiss us rather too easily as a monolithic ''THOSE guys in the RED states''. I criticize my own state quite heavily, but I still live here because there is much good here along with the things that make me roll my eyes in frustration.


The reason the red states'' disconnect is that they ARE poorer, due to the rural nature of the place. (...)
Ksinger, as a person who currently lives in California, pride in my home state compels me to point something out about my, err, blue state (before you dismiss it ''monolithically''
). California currently has over 28 MILLION acres of dedicated farmland (Clickable link: USDA Fact Sheet on CA ), and nearly 90% of the farms here are ''small farms'' 500 acres or less. Beef is huge here, and in fact CA puts out over 20% of the dairy products of the entire United States. So.... don''t dismiss *our* understanding of agrarian culture just because we''ve been voting against politicians with the last name of ''Bush'' since the 90s, missy!


That said, I have to say that I dislike the spirit behind the OP''s article. Our country is strong because we are able to be successful on many fronts; our ports on either side of a continent allows a high degree of international trade, and the mere size of the continent allows many different ecosystems to support a large variety of food products to be grown. Temporary weakness in one can be managed in tough times by strength in the other if we''re not stupid enough to be distracted by attempts to create an internal xenophobia of our fellow citizens. If uncommon and unpredictable credit freezes are disrupting midwestern farmers'' ability to produce and/or harvest food that will both feed my family on the West Coast as well as children in the Deep South, I am grateful that a limited channel of unfrozen credit exists and logic dictates that it should be available to channels where it can do the most good IRRELEVANT of an individuals'' lever-pulling decisions on election day.

Philosophically speaking, I hate articles that aim to pit one citizen against another using terms like blue state/red state; it doesn''t serve the country, and it certainly doesn''t serve the individual. It only serves to create a fear (of others) that entrenches party politics, make us so angry at each other that we suspend rational thought, and close our minds.

I''ll get off the soapbox now.
No defense necessary. And I really didn''t mean to take this into some sort of agricultural pissing match. But it seems to me that the city dwellers - and yes I live in a city, but it isn''t city in the term I mean it - 10 minutes and you''re out in the middle of nowhere - ah...hell, you just have to live around it to understand. There''s no amount of explaining to cover it. I''m going to cease trying. I really only tried to try to explain some of the mindset here in relation to the original question. It''s not the only mindset here, even if it is the most prevelant. But if people want to lump us, they will, period.

To the highlights - word.
 

swimmer

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
2,516
Date: 2/24/2009 7:13:29 PM
Author: fleur-de-lis
Date: 2/23/2009 9:41:27 PM

Author: ksinger

Date: 2/23/2009 8:55:06 PM


Author: movie zombie



Date: 2/23/2009 6:36:03 PM


Author:swimmer


Who gets more federal money? Those who pay the most in taxes tend to be blue states and those who collect welfare most are in red states. Very interesting. link I''m just wondering which of these ''hands out'' states are going to turn down their federal stimulus monies. Just hoping to see Palin turn it down and actually stand by what she said on the campaign trail (between shopping sprees of course). Of course it would involve shutting down schools and roads, sewers, and other things, but the next generation is going to hate us all anyway for our excesses, right? They might as well be poorly educated and hungry, as long as the taxes are low and we keep waiting for Reagan''s trickle down theories to kick in.

or perhaps they should just eat cake.......



mz
We COULD. I doubt that anyone on either coast would be eating cake or bread or beef or corn without us. I know you don''t mean it that way MZ, but honestly, I do feel at times that the people who live on the coasts and/or have never been here, dismiss us rather too easily as a monolithic ''THOSE guys in the RED states''. I criticize my own state quite heavily, but I still live here because there is much good here along with the things that make me roll my eyes in frustration.



The reason the red states'' disconnect is that they ARE poorer, due to the rural nature of the place. (...)

Ksinger, as a person who currently lives in California, pride in my home state compels me to point something out about my, err, blue state (before you dismiss it ''monolithically''
). California currently has over 28 MILLION acres of dedicated farmland (Clickable link: USDA Fact Sheet on CA ), and nearly 90% of the farms here are ''small farms'' 500 acres or less. Beef is huge here, and in fact CA puts out over 20% of the dairy products of the entire United States. So.... don''t dismiss *our* understanding of agrarian culture just because we''ve been voting against politicians with the last name of ''Bush'' since the 90s, missy!



That said, I have to say that I dislike the spirit behind the OP''s article. Our country is strong because we are able to be successful on many fronts; our ports on either side of a continent allows a high degree of international trade, and the mere size of the continent allows many different ecosystems to support a large variety of food products to be grown. Temporary weakness in one can be managed in tough times by strength in the other if we''re not stupid enough to be distracted by attempts to create an internal xenophobia of our fellow citizens. If uncommon and unpredictable credit freezes are disrupting midwestern farmers'' ability to produce and/or harvest food that will both feed my family on the West Coast as well as children in the Deep South, I am grateful that a limited channel of unfrozen credit exists and logic dictates that it should be available to channels where it can do the most good IRRELEVANT of an individuals'' lever-pulling decisions on election day.


Philosophically speaking, I hate articles that aim to pit one citizen against another using terms like blue state/red state; it doesn''t serve the country, and it certainly doesn''t serve the individual. It only serves to create a fear (of others) that entrenches party politics, make us so angry at each other that we suspend rational thought, and close our minds.


I''ll get off the soapbox now.
FDL, I hear you, and diversity is fantastic in all things, like biodiversity in crops, without it death draws close. Had no idea that this would turn into an agrarian/urban thing, I was sipping red wine and thinking about the violent hypocrisy of the Republicans in the Senate who slashed funding for schools in the stimulus package, are fine with poor children being malnourished, and yet claim that Jesus agrees with their policy of "fiscal conservatism." I detest hypocrisy only slightly less than my revulsion for those who embrace ignorance. Tomorrow morning I head back to evaluating the progress of a failing elementary school in a Red State. Underfunded, underfed, these poor children paying the price that their parents'' voting created. How many govt housing projects have I canvassed for Democratic candidates, only to be told by the residents that they are Republican and don''t want to pay taxes. I''m so frustrated by this I can''t discuss it anymore.
 

ksinger

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
5,078
Date: 2/24/2009 9:37:43 PM
Author: swimmer


FDL, I hear you, and diversity is fantastic in all things, like biodiversity in crops, without it death draws close. Had no idea that this would turn into an agrarian/urban thing, I was sipping red wine and thinking about the violent hypocrisy of the Republicans in the Senate who slashed funding for schools in the stimulus package, are fine with poor children being malnourished, and yet claim that Jesus agrees with their policy of ''fiscal conservatism.'' I detest hypocrisy only slightly less than my revulsion for those who embrace ignorance. Tomorrow morning I head back to evaluating the progress of a failing elementary school in a Red State. Underfunded, underfed, these poor children paying the price that their parents'' voting created. How many govt housing projects have I canvassed for Democratic candidates, only to be told by the residents that they are Republican and don''t want to pay taxes. I''m so frustrated by this I can''t discuss it anymore.
Well I know one VERY stressed-out history teacher (he told me about his day and I made him LEAVE faster to his MG Club meeting: too damn depressing) who would agree with you on all points, and would drink the wine with you. But he''d probably be sipping single-malt scotch. ;-)
 

LaraOnline

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
3,365
I'm on the periphery of all of this, and a couple of aspects of the conversation are interesting to me:

1. It is indeed refreshing to hear people discuss the merits of welfarism rather than just accepting that welfare is a public good that has no end, nor bottom.

Australia is incredibly left in terms of general popular political dialogue, and it does make ours an economy that is stable (because of the high level of transfer payments) and incredibly hard for small business (because of the high level of transfer payments).

Admittedly, our particular family does work in a very difficult industry, but it seems our country's overall entrepreneurial spirit and commercial imagination is rather stifled in this country.

Adds up to a rather boring, expensive and generic shopping experience for the most part! Not to mention... and absolutely lousy quality of life for small business owners.

2. There hasn't been much direct discussion of farming subsidies in this discussion... my guess is that even in the old days, before agri-business those little farmers weren't making any money, they were being propped up by the government 'for the public good'.

Australia has been campaigning for many years to have the US lower its heavy subsidy programs for their farmers, as we have lowered ours.

Our export/import policy (and our agricultural policies) is generally geared around the progressive discussion and implementation of free trade policies - ironic really, because our domestic policy is basically obsessed with high taxing and high spending governments rather than, say, increasing our economic competitiveness...
 

HollyS

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Messages
6,099
Red states. Blue states. Do you really think everyone in that state is of one party only? Or that the lawmakers in that state are all of one party? Or that any of the stimulus plan is going to do any good whatsoever anyway?

I''ll give you a fine example: Millions of dollars for a ''Frisbee Park'' in Austin, TX. WTF??

I can assure you that there are many ''blue'' people in Austin. Austin is about as blue a blue as you could ever hope to see. But what the heck is a Frisbee Park going to do to ''stimulate'' our economy in Texas? Exactly nothing. Like all the other stupid ideas contained within this behemoth of a bill.

Dividing people into easily stereotyped groups doesn''t really address the issue of this silly-assed plan -- which in case you didn''t know -- has earmarked a pay raise for both houses of Congress. Doesn''t anyone want to get POd about that?
 

LaraOnline

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
3,365
I agree with you Holly that it is probably ''not nice'' to talk about red and blue states, inasmuch as individuals living within those states have lives that are not directly described within those rigid financial lines.

But I do think it is interesting to look at the percentages of people within a population (country) that pay net tax, and no net tax. Apparently in Australia, one in four families pay no net tax whatsoever, because of the level of income supports / welfare programs! And that''s not including the other genuinely needy, such as older people (the single old-age pension in this country is set at a disgraceful level) and disabled people.

There is an enormous bandwagon of welfare recipients in Australia, and the culture seems incredibly well-established. An unweidly public service is also a major issue for us, the public service spending continues to grow and grow and grow.

The weight of tax payments is going to fall on a smaller and smaller group of people as each year passes. The baby boomers are already retiring, and (from memory, thinking back to trivia I have read recently) by 2050, apparently one in four (in Australia) will be over the age of 60? How on earth are we going to pay for all their expectations in health - let alone all the other requirements of a government dependent, welfare expectant general population?

These are reasons why I find this discussion interesting.

We also are doing the ridiculous ''dig a hole'' stimulus packages. I noticed that China, in response to its economic slowdown, has cut taxes on housing and business...politicians over here have elections to win, I guess...
 

Guilty Pleasure

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Messages
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In that table linked in the original post, are the total tax dollars based off of personal income tax or do they include industry/ corporate tax dollars as well? I am going to guess that it includes corporate taxes, so the idea of rich individuals voting blue and giving money to poor hypocrits who vote red is not really supported by this list. Until you can provide a table showing individuals voting trends against acceptance of welfare, there's no way to know who is walking their talk.

Also, I have no numbers or articles to cite, but I would guess that most people in New Mexico (top of the list) who are accepting handouts are not the voting constituents showing up at the poll. That probably goes for many "red states". that's just my opinion though - no facts to back it up.
 
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