LiW Why do you suppose men don''t understand...

[lucyandroger]

the importance of titles (wife/ fiancee) or public recognition of a relationship. Okay, that was a complete generalization and I apologize. Nonetheless, does it seem to you that men really don''t get it?

 

[Snicklefritz]

Because their sexual integrity is rarely questioned or judged, whereas women''s often is. "Whore" and "slut" roll off people''s tongue''s far too smoothly and have such denigrating connotations, unlike men''s versions of "pimp" and "player" which offer some underlying, undeserved congratulations for avoiding the commitment that accompanies titles such as fiance or husband. And while most people probably don''t think in terms of those extremes, as they do not resemble those remarks, they may have inklings of them which cause everyday men to drop-the-ball by introducing his girlfriend as his "friend", and women to push more strongly for the commitment related titles.

Or it could just be that men are oblivious

 

[janinegirly]

the usual reasons of biology -- that it is not in men's interests to settle down, and for women, it is in their interest to find a sole provider.

So take that biologically engrained fact and realize that society (cultural changes, feminism,etc) has loosened up those bounderies and guidelines. And to be honest women have also allowed those guidelines to be blurred. So now it's ok to live like you're married, even buy a house together and have shared bank account without being married! This works out fantastic for the guy--he gets all the benefits without society judging him (not so for the woman). And then to him, the terms wife/fiancee are just annoying obligations when he already has the cow! For the women, however, she wants the reassurance that the set up is long term and that this guy will stick around for the long haul. And for all the shifts in society, a marriage certificate and ring and what it signifies (commmitment on guy's behalf) is still the best way of declaring that intention.

 

[PrincessLily2009]

I just wrote a paper like 2 years ago about the gender bias in American public schools. Girls and boys are just raised differently.

I also wonder how much of it is biological. Women have the responsibility of bearing children to ensure survival of our species. Maybe we''re programmed to seek out a safe situation for having children the same way animals are?

 

[LaraOnline]

For the sake of discussion:

If you felt you had the upper hand in the power relationship, wouldn't you want to take advantage of that?

Men are culturally encouraged to basically see (sexual) woman as a homogenous group to be exploited. I know this is a provocative statement, and you could write a book on why this position is constantly encouraged by men for men.

However, the upshot for us women is, as long as our men feel that their essential needs are being met by an unmarried relationship, they will not be strongly motivated to change the situation...regardless of how a girlfriend feels about it all, tbh.

I am often struck by how practical men are about relationships. Without wanting to be overly crude, I think it basically comes down, again, to what is experienced as an expression of power or dominance within the physical relationship.

Men assume that, like themselves, if a woman wasn't getting most of her 'relationship' needs met by being in relationship, she would not be likely to stay, or should not stay, if she has any self-respect... they do not see women's involvement in a love affair as any more complicated than their own, and they certainly do not see sexual relating as necessarily fitting into any long-term life agenda, as they do not recognise sexual involvement as a sacrifice or compromise on the part of the woman...

Unfortunately, I believe that this male view of fifty-fifty relating is overly simplified, and is in itself an expression of power relations, as it conveniently ignores the basic biological premise of love. Every woman knows that all romance puts her at some risk of pregnancy, a risk she reasonably thinks is deserving of some recognition.

Unfortunately, men have always downplayed this most serious side of 'love', for reasons which are quite clear to understand... So then we go back to examining power relationships again.

In many ways, our culture sees marriage as the 'triumph' of the woman. Marriage is constantly presented as perhaps an unnatural position for a man to take, a kind of permanent sacrifice. So, in short, even if a bf acknowledges that a woman has lower status because she is not married, he is unlikely to publicly admit his recognition of that fact. Not until he is married himself, and is facing the prospect of his own daughter entering the dating jungle, that is!

 

[NakedFinger]

Date: 4/24/2009 9:40:46 AM
Author: janinegirly


So take that biologically engrained fact and realize that society (cultural changes, feminism,etc) has loosened up those bounderies and guidelines. And to be honest women have also allowed those guidelines to be blurred. So now it''s ok to live like you''re married, even buy a house together and have shared bank account without being married! This works out fantastic for the guy--he gets all the benefits without society judging him (not so for the woman). And then to him, the terms wife/fiancee are just annoying obligations when he already has the cow!

Haha, sorry to threadjack lucy, but janine...your comment just reminded me of my parents. I had just bought a house with my FF, and my mom (italian...catholic...catch my drift

) said, "What is that saying? Milk, Cow, something?" and I said, "Ughh....''why buy the cow when you get the milk for free?". And said "Yeah thats it." So to shut her up I said "Dont worry Mom, there''s no milk being given". And my dad looks at me and said "Yeah sure, what is he lactose intolerant???" LOL

I couldnt help but laugh!

Ok sorry....threadjack over!

 

[tlh]

society teaches men to covet power.
Society teaches women to covet beauty.

Women are taught to seek powerful men, men are taught to seek beautiful women.

Men can take time to achieve their power. Older men are thought of as "distinguished".
Women''s beauty fades... and has an "expiration date" for some societal viewpoints. IE women over 25-27 are considered late models... anything older than that is often disgarded - even though can be remarkably beautiful.

So women seek out comfort in titles, that show that a relationship is progressing towards marriage... or a more "solid" commitment.

Now these are just general societal expectations of gender roles that have been set - not everyone follows the mold.

 

[Shoopy]

I really dislike when women call each other cows

And I honestly don't see how a man can benefit from a joint account without the woman getting the same benefit. If he's getting half of his bills paid, so is she. Or how he is benefiting more from having a "wife" at home than she is for having a "husband" at home. If she's in a position where she's doing all of the household chores without any of his help, then its really her fault for not putting her foot down regardless of whether they have a marriage license or not. That doesn't fly in my home and we aren't married. I don't automatically do all of the "wife" duties just because we live together while he sits and does nothing because that's not how it would be if we were married. And once they do get married, I don't see how the behaviors premarriage would change. If he was lazy and thought she should be handling everything in the house, he isn't all of a sudden going to become prince charming when they sign the license.

Anyway, in terms of why they don't like labels...I honestly don't know but I think that's more of a case by case basis.

 

[janinegirly]

Just in case anyone misinterpreted my post, written from general perspective/society''s views. Not my point of view.

They are realities here whether we like it or not.

Naked Finger: LOL.

 

[sweetliloldme]

Generally, men don''t think that far ahead. They also don''t analyze things that much. They assume because they don''t think about it that it doesn''t matter. It''s not they''re fault and they don''t do it on purpose they just don''t know any better. They honestly don''t get that what you call someone is a big deal because they could care less..Like I said, if it doesn''t matter to them they think that it doesn''t matter to anyone else either. They just don''t think the way that we do.

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 4/24/2009 9:54:31 AM
Author: LaraOnline
For the sake of discussion:

If you felt you had the upper hand in the power relationship, wouldn''t you want to take advantage of that?

Men are culturally encouraged to basically see (sexual) woman as a homogenous group to be exploited. I know this is a provocative statement, and you could write a book on why this position is constantly encouraged by men for men.

However, the upshot for us women is, as long as our men feel that their essential needs are being met by an unmarried relationship, they will not be strongly motivated to change the situation...regardless of how a girlfriend feels about it all, tbh.

I am often struck by how practical men are about relationships. Without wanting to be overly crude, I think it basically comes down, again, to what is experienced as an expression of power or dominance within the physical relationship.

Men assume that, like themselves, if a woman wasn''t getting most of her ''relationship'' needs met by being in relationship, she would not be likely to stay, or should not stay, if she has any self-respect... they do not see women''s involvement in a love affair as any more complicated than their own, and they certainly do not see sexual relating as necessarily fitting into any long-term life agenda, as they do not recognise sexual involvement as a sacrifice or compromise on the part of the woman...

Unfortunately, I believe that this male view of fifty-fifty relating is overly simplified, and is in itself an expression of power relations, as it conveniently ignores the basic biological premise of love. Every woman knows that all romance puts her at some risk of pregnancy, a risk she reasonably thinks is deserving of some recognition.

Unfortunately, men have always downplayed this most serious side of ''love'', for reasons which are quite clear to understand... So then we go back to examining power relationships again.

In many ways, our culture sees marriage as the ''triumph'' of the woman. Marriage is constantly presented as perhaps an unnatural position for a man to take, a kind of permanent sacrifice. So, in short, even if a bf acknowledges that a woman has lower status because she is not married, he is unlikely to publicly admit his recognition of that fact. Not until he is married himself, and is facing the prospect of his own daughter entering the dating jungle, that is!

That''s a perfectly sound way to see things. If more women DID use some common sense to realize this, there would be a lot less posts on PS about "what should I do". There is way too much emphasis on this biological premise of love IMO. We aren''t all breeders being led about by our hormones.

 

[lucyandroger]

You ladies all have very interesting things to say. I particularly find the biological arguments interesting.

This was just really on my mind this morning because BF and I are very much committed but it kind of confuses him that being an official fiancee all of sudden means a lot to me. Frankly, it kind of snuck up on me. He doesn't have any sinister motives and in fact does want to be officially engaged soon as well but he genuinely doesn't get why I'm so antsy. I just thought it was interesting.


ETA - Wow, I said interesting A LOT. I need to get a thesaurus...it's been a long week....

 

[musey]

I haven''t experienced this, the boys/men I''ve known in my life seem to enjoy titles just as much as the women do (or don''t)

Am I only exposed to weirdos?!

 

[Rhea]

Date: 4/24/2009 6:29:53 PM
Author: musey
I haven''t experienced this, the boys/men I''ve known in my life seem to enjoy titles just as much as the women do (or don''t)

Am I only exposed to weirdos?!

Nope, I have the weirdos but in the other direction. Women and men over here don''t care as much. Most of my work mates aren''t married and don''t care. One of my managers wears a very pretty diamond ring with an eternity band under it. I called her partner her "husband" and she laughed, said he wasn''t, never would be, but she liked the rings. Another woman is married but I didn''t know it for a very long time, most people at work still don''t know. Several people at work (and in London in general) have children, buy houses, and start businesses together with no legal pieces of paper - my in-laws are among those people. My martial status or title has never mattered to anyone except my father, grandparents, and the government, which is why we got married. I didn''t change my name, use Ms., and generally don''t mind what people think. It is harder to not care when I go back to the States where titles seem to matter much more. My DH has never called me his "wife" other than sarcastically or on message boards (DW vs partner). We''ve been married over three years. I acknowledge that it''s probably easier not to mind what people think when I do have that little piece of paper, but I''ve always felt pretty secure in my relationship and never correct people when they call him my boyfriend.

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 4/24/2009 11:04:28 AM
Author: purrfectpear
There is way too much emphasis on this biological premise of love IMO. We aren't all breeders being led about by our hormones.

haha PP, I think we are! Even when we are not aware of it, or think consciously that we don't want children. I mean, I realise that I am talking in a gross generalisation, but as a kind of homogenous group of womenhood, I think that stands, overall.

I would like to see men take a stronger position on family planning, for themselves. I think scientific investigations into how men's age influences the viability of fertilised eggs is a good starting point.

Basically, men assume that their time frame is much longer than a woman's. Society's constant referrals to women's attractiveness only reinforces this suggestion that women have a significantly shorter sexual life than men.

That men's attractiveness is liked to money and career success , and that women's is linked to physical attractiveness, and perhaps sexual 'confidence', is proof in itself of the unbalanced power relations (unacknowledged, of course, which helps maintain the status quo) between the two sexes.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 4/24/2009 8:54:13 AM
Author:lucyandroger
the importance of titles (wife/ fiancee) or public recognition of a relationship. Okay, that was a complete generalization and I apologize. Nonetheless, does it seem to you that men really don't get it?

Maybe people who think this way don't think it's anyone else's business what others think about their relationships and how serious or casual they are perceived to be ("perceived" since I have known remarkably disloyal married people and extremely devoted "singles" who dated for decades and never married).

After all, who cares if he's my boyfriend, my fiance or my husband if it doesn't change how I feel about him, how he feels about me, or how we treat each other?

 

[LaraOnline]

Hey, just had another thought! Maybe there are variations in ''biological drive'' associated with reproduction, partly due to genetic factors?

In my mind I do feel it is as simple as men wishing to ''pass the buck'' on fertility issues for as long as possible, and taking advantage of cultural blind spots to do so...

They actually seem to become more interested in marrying as their fertility and virility begins to ebb. Not that popular culture really explores the phenomenon of the under-performing male!!!

In the past, marriage was associated with accessing a regular partner. Commonly, financial success is linked to men wanting to marry and have kids... but of course now that marriage is no longer a socially necessary choice, marrying men are probably also concerned about issues women have always been traditionally associated with ... the biological clock/ sexual security/ attractiveness/virility.

It would be good for our culture if we could discuss these ''softer'' aspects of masculinity in a sensible and sensitive way.

I feel now that I''ve had children, should anything happen to my beloved husband *crosses self* I am less likely to desire to marry again, and therefore will not be so acutely aware of inequities in status according to whether I''m a married woman or not. I may even embrace my mother''s baby boomer position and celebrate the casting off of the shackles of marriage!

I totally agree with Addy''s ''take'' on Britain''s anti-marriage disposition, in some ways it feels similar to the Nordic ''take''. But, although I came from a strongly anti-marriage - left-wing artistic - milieu in Australia myself I have to say I found Britain''s social system arid and cold as a result of this anti-family position in youth culture.

To me, it seemed unrealistic, reactionary and selfish... when I was unmarried, acutely aware of my fertility and without children on the radar, that is!

Perhaps now, or in a decade, I will feel as if I could break free of the suburban mould! In this way, the current ''anti-marriage'' fashion could be merely a reflection of the demographic influence of the baby boomers upon our society.

Whatever the cause, I am glad ''I SURVIVED'' and married in spite of the anti-marriage rhetoric that was so strong in my Gen-X environment.

I wonder if my children will have an easier time deciding to marry, because legend has it that coddled and much-loved Gen-Y is less hysterically anti-family than the thoughtlessly-convention-busting baby-boomers or the miserably existentialist early children of the boomers, Gen-x.

 

[Rhea]

Lara, I agree with you that there is a backlash against marriage right now. We don't agree on how neccessary marriage is or is not to raise a family, so I won't address that. What I want to ask is this, is this really just a backlash? As I've pointed out in several posts, my in-laws, who are aged around 60, are not married. They would qualify for Generation X. I, being in my late 20s, along with several of my co-workers would count as Gen Y. The About half of my co-workers are in their late 30s to mid-40s so I think that makes them Gen X and part of what you are talking about. The marriage rate is on the decline in England for the third year in a row I read the other day with the average marriage ages being 32 and 34 for men and women, respectively.

Also, your post interchanges anti-marriage and anti-family. "But, although I came from a strongly anti-marriage - left-wing artistic - milieu in Australia myself I have to say I found Britain's social system arid and cold as a result of this anti-family position in youth culture." I don't feel they are the same. I am very much pro-family despite not wanting children myself. My previous boyfriend and I broke it off over his misbelief that I would change my mind. I made sure that my next boyfriend, my now partner, knew that exactly how I felt. I do, however, believe that the decline in marriage is a positive step. Anti-marriage sounds extreme. Are anti-marriage and anti-family the same to you? If not, what are the differences?

 

[LadyBlue]

Date: 4/24/2009 6:29:53 PM
Author: musey
I haven''t experienced this, the boys/men I''ve known in my life seem to enjoy titles just as much as the women do (or don''t)

Am I only exposed to weirdos?!

I''m in the same situation, my hubby always introduce me as his fiancee and now wife

, I''m the one that forget tittles

 

[ilovesparkles]

Date: 4/25/2009 12:41:56 PM
Author: gaby06

Date: 4/24/2009 6:29:53 PM
Author: musey
I haven''t experienced this, the boys/men I''ve known in my life seem to enjoy titles just as much as the women do (or don''t)

Am I only exposed to weirdos?!

I''m in the same situation, my hubby always introduce me as his fiancee and now wife

, I''m the one that forget tittles

Thritto! H cannot wait until he can introduce me as his fiance, and is a bit frustrated I demanded he propose with a ring and make it official before we get to use the titles! I explained that I want it to be official, his reply "but I asked you if you wanted to marry me, and you said yes"

He CANNOT wait, and now neither can I since the ring will be finished in 5 days!

 

[MissWishfulThinking]

Although my OH has said he would like to get married (again) in future, he does admit to having quite negative views about the term "wife". When I think "husband", I personally think of things like love, warmth, trust, security, family, stability, protection. When he thinks "wife" it''s just negative - there are plenty of negative jokes about "the wife"; "the wife" is used as an all-encompassing explanation for why men can''t join their mates for the game / for a drink etc.

It''s a great shame, as I would love it for him to feel proud to one day (hopefully! I''m on the list...) introduce me as his wife. Any ideas on how to change the opinion would be appreciated!

Also - Lara (slight threadjack) - there is an increasing mass of information about the effect of men''s age on the viability of embryos. In the past it was thought that because we have our eggs from birth, they degenerate (as does the equipment surrounding them) over time and hence older mothers have difficulties. Men it was assumed were ok because not only can we see men in their very late years having kids, but they also produce fresh sperm every day. But, that fresh sperm is produced by aged machinery - and research now is showing that a number of issues relating to the child''s imprinting (form of learning early in life) are related to older fathers, such as autism and schizophrenia. But they have to be more like 55+ before that''s an issue. I always wanted to have had my kids by the time I was 30, that''s not happened, so my next cut-off (when risks really accelerate rapidly) is 35. But no doubt if it''s not happened by then, I''ll just put it back again.

Addy - I''m also in London - this thread''s becoming brit-tastic!

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 4/25/2009 12:29:27 PM
Author: Addy
Also, your post interchanges anti-marriage and anti-family. ''But, although I came from a strongly anti-marriage - left-wing artistic - milieu in Australia myself I have to say I found Britain''s social system arid and cold as a result of this anti-family position in youth culture.'' I don''t feel they are the same. I am very much pro-family despite not wanting children myself. My previous boyfriend and I broke it off over his misbelief that I would change my mind. I made sure that my next boyfriend, my now partner, knew that exactly how I felt. I do, however, believe that the decline in marriage is a positive step. Anti-marriage sounds extreme. Are anti-marriage and anti-family the same to you? If not, what are the differences?

yes, your non-married inlaws would be baby boomers.

I can see what you are saying, that marriage and family are not the same. I do think that Australians are following in the footsteps of the British, and are moving away from marriage as being necessary for family life.

I am sure that culture plays a part in how people see marriage. But if those cultural understandings were completely general, there would not be such discrepancy between women wanting to marry and men not wanting to. The whole ''issue'' of whether social status is affected by marriage status would not even arise.

Your inlaws, being together without ''the piece of paper'' would play a large part in your particular family''s value-system of what does and does not make family, within the setting of Britain''s current ''marriage malaise''.

Generally, though, I DO feel that pro-marriage is a more generally pro-family position.
There are a number of reasons why I feel this way.

A lot of my opinions have been formed by my own personal experiences, just like your own I guess. I mean, we''re not sexologists here!

Firstly, looking at my own experiences, I can see that the social downplaying of marriage as a social goal for women probably influenced me in choosing guys that basically were pretty rubbish marriage potential. The casualisation of the ''sex market'' basically meant that all formal expectations had to be left at the door, and the guy was interviewed along the lines of ''is he nice to me''?
Not a good way of finding a partner for life!

Secondly, I found that partners, once selected, were not directed into any real planning for family life whatsoever, not by their parents, not by their friends and certainly not by social expectations.
And by simply rejecting the concept of marriage, all other aspects of family formation were also left at the door. Of course, an ''accident'' baby may have changed those things, but there was no way I felt I should have to be put through that course of events!

In spite of my best efforts to avoid unplanned pregnancy, I nonetheless worried about potentially falling pregnant. I also worried about my future. I had to make decisions about job choices, cities to live in, with regard to my partner... but no expectations! To me, this felt unrealistic, and made the relationship much more short term than it might otherwise have been.

In relation to family planning, this was a burden shouldered by me alone. Until pregnancy happened, I was basically ''not to worry my pretty head''! Nor was I to expect any particular outcome, should such an event arise. Psychologically, I found it difficult to continue on in such circumstances.

The qualitive difference in my love life post marriage has been remarkably different, in that overall it has met my own needs (current and anticipated future) much better. I have a clear direction for my future life, including a financial support, which allows me to set priorities more easily, when it comes to life-direction. I have found it far easier to verbalise issues such as my desire for children, and to have those isses examined fairly by my partner. I also find it much easier to express my own expectations in relation to his personal behaviour (workwise, housekeeping, financial planning, etc),

There is a STRUCTURE there that I can work with. I find this more supportie a family-type lifestyle. Previous to marriage, I had no such negotiating strength. There was very much the sense of ''definitely for now, possibly forever...'' which helped my partner foster a sense of limitation over my expectations, and behaviour, without the responsibility for my well being which my husband exhibits at every turn.

Scientists who plot these things do say that the delay in people marrying, and the reduction in numbers of marriages has been linked to delayed and reduced planned conceptions as well, so it seems likely that other women apart from myself have experienced a lower quality of life as a result of living in a non-married scenario.

Additionally, of all my friends male and female who chose to have children or co-habit indefinitely without marriage, none are still together, or if they are it is because the woman has given up her dream to have children. It seems that de facto arrangements are easier to fall into... and they''re relatively easy to fall out of too. Ironically, this can keep some partners from fulfilling themselves family-wise.

The numbers of singe-but-partnered women who hold back from conceiving children against their own personal wishes - sometimes even to the point where they are made barren by the delay, although they have a regular and life partner - would suggest that many do see marriage as a signal that the partnership bond is intended for life.

I have to say, I fell into this category as well.

interesting discussion!

 

[LadyBlue]

Date: 4/25/2009 1:46:10 PM
Author: ilovesparkles

Date: 4/25/2009 12:41:56 PM

Author: gaby06

Date: 4/24/2009 6:29:53 PM

Author: musey

I haven''t experienced this, the boys/men I''ve known in my life seem to enjoy titles just as much as the women do (or don''t)

Am I only exposed to weirdos?!

I''m in the same situation, my hubby always introduce me as his fiancee and now wife

, I''m the one that forget tittles

Thritto! H cannot wait until he can introduce me as his fiance, and is a bit frustrated I demanded he propose with a ring and make it official before we get to use the titles! I explained that I want it to be official, his reply ''but I asked you if you wanted to marry me, and you said yes''

He CANNOT wait, and now neither can I since the ring will be finished in 5 days!

My story is a little funny, since when we got engaged, we decided to don''t spend the money on the ring to spend it on the wedding (My hubby wanted to buy an expensive one)I suggested him to buy a spare one, but he rather to wait, and I was more focus on the wedding that I really did not mind not to have a ring. I was the fiancee with out a ring

, so every time everybody asked, we just say, it''s on the way

. After we got married, and people asked for the ring, I just show the wedding band, I never felt anxious about no having a e-ring, but when my hubby told me that the ring was coming, I start being crazy,

I''m so happy that I wait for the ring, because I love it, and my hubby loves it as well. I got my e-ring 9 month''s after we got married.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 4/25/2009 10:20:44 AM
Author: gwendolyn

Date: 4/24/2009 8:54:13 AM
Author:lucyandroger
the importance of titles (wife/ fiancee) or public recognition of a relationship. Okay, that was a complete generalization and I apologize. Nonetheless, does it seem to you that men really don''t get it?

Maybe people who think this way don''t think it''s anyone else''s business what others think about their relationships and how serious or casual they are perceived to be (''perceived'' since I have known remarkably disloyal married people and extremely devoted ''singles'' who dated for decades and never married).

After all, who cares if he''s my boyfriend, my fiance or my husband if it doesn''t change how I feel about him, how he feels about me, or how we treat each other?

Yep, you hit the nail on the head, Gwen. That''s exactly how my BF feels and how, in my experience, a lot of men feel. I used to feel this way as well but all of a sudden, it matters to me a lot more that we get those titles and our relationship is recognized for what it is. I can''t really explain why to my BF, especially since we both know we''re 100% committed to one another. It''s like it hurts him that I feel like we need them.

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 4/25/2009 1:46:10 PM
Author: ilovesparkles

Date: 4/25/2009 12:41:56 PM
Author: gaby06

Date: 4/24/2009 6:29:53 PM
Author: musey
I haven''t experienced this, the boys/men I''ve known in my life seem to enjoy titles just as much as the women do (or don''t)

Am I only exposed to weirdos?!

I''m in the same situation, my hubby always introduce me as his fiancee and now wife

, I''m the one that forget tittles

Thritto! H cannot wait until he can introduce me as his fiance, and is a bit frustrated I demanded he propose with a ring and make it official before we get to use the titles! I explained that I want it to be official, his reply ''but I asked you if you wanted to marry me, and you said yes''

He CANNOT wait, and now neither can I since the ring will be finished in 5 days!

Glad you ladies have had these experiences! I completely realize that what I wrote was a generalization and certainly didn''t mean to imply that any men who felt differently were weirdos.

My post was less about introductions and more about moving past milestones in a relationship. So more the importance of changing from GF to FI. My SO has never introduced me as less than I am - I''m always his GF or Partner.

 

[Rhea]

Lara, I''ve read your post, but unfortunately I haven''t had time to respond.

 

[gwendolyn]

Date: 4/27/2009 10:17:41 AM
Author: lucyandroger

Date: 4/25/2009 10:20:44 AM

Author: gwendolyn

Date: 4/24/2009 8:54:13 AM

Author:lucyandroger

the importance of titles (wife/ fiancee) or public recognition of a relationship. Okay, that was a complete generalization and I apologize. Nonetheless, does it seem to you that men really don''t get it?

Maybe people who think this way don''t think it''s anyone else''s business what others think about their relationships and how serious or casual they are perceived to be (''perceived'' since I have known remarkably disloyal married people and extremely devoted ''singles'' who dated for decades and never married).


After all, who cares if he''s my boyfriend, my fiance or my husband if it doesn''t change how I feel about him, how he feels about me, or how we treat each other?

Yep, you hit the nail on the head, Gwen. That''s exactly how my BF feels and how, in my experience, a lot of men feel. I used to feel this way as well but all of a sudden, it matters to me a lot more that we get those titles and our relationship is recognized for what it is. I can''t really explain why to my BF, especially since we both know we''re 100% committed to one another. It''s like it hurts him that I feel like we need them.

I think I hit the nail on the head because I feel the same way as your BF.

 

[HollyS]

They get it. They choose not to be marked as taken until they are ready to make a commitment.

Them saying "I love you" doesn''t count.

You moving in with them doesn''t count.

Commitment to them is buying the ring; but they won''t buy it until they want to.

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 4/27/2009 6:57:06 PM
Author: HollyS
They get it. They choose not to be marked as taken until they are ready to make a commitment.

Them saying ''I love you'' doesn''t count.

You moving in with them doesn''t count.

Commitment to them is buying the ring; but they won''t buy it until they want to.

Ooh the truth hurts!!
But the best thing these days is when they do... they are so great at it! That''s one thing about the new ''eye of a needle'' marriage arrangements! Great partners!

But of course, as well, as Addy has pointed out, some people really DO see marriage as ''just a piece of paper''. Personally though, I think those people are fewer than we imagine. Perhaps they are simply perfectly adjusted and responsible people, with a finely tuned intellectual mind!

Most people I know though, I think, can''t consider marriage as purely theoretical. They actually don''t like what marriage represents. I don''t think I would ''behave'' so well if I didn''t have the contract haha. My DH said that''s why he married me... so I didn''t run away when the heat got turned up!

And I think that for the marrying type, the ambivalence of non-marriage is confusing and distracting... I always found it quite a distressing conversation with friends of both genders: ''Why on EARTH do you want to get MARRIED???!!!''

But... these friends (of mine) that were cynical and negative about marriage''s worth still had love lives. They had kids, and left their bfriends; they moved in with their guy, and moved out again. They had bfs that left them after the baby, and now those guys are living with other girls, and having babies with other girls... honestly, I must be friends with misfits and short-term thinkers, lol.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 4/24/2009 6:29:53 PM
Author: musey
I haven''t experienced this, the boys/men I''ve known in my life seem to enjoy titles just as much as the women do (or don''t)

Am I only exposed to weirdos?!

If they are weirdo''s the my husband is too.