Whiteflash ags G downgraded by Gia?

[Frenchtoast]

Hi there,
Has anyone ever bought a Whiteflash ags expert selection G over 1.5 cts?
If so, ever had it independently appraised?
I'm paranoid that the G I'm looking at would be downgraded by GIA if I ever had it certified by them...
What have ur experience been of WF Gs? What was the body color like?
I hate to see any warmth in my diamond and I read somewhere that someone's WF F had discernible warmth...
But that they were color sensitive... As am I...

 

[swingirl]

Are you asking if AGS is softer on color than GIA?

 

[Frenchtoast]

Pretty much yup.. But I'm also asking if whiteflash's assessment of their diamond colors r also spot on? As compared to the Gia standard...

 

[Frenchtoast]

Pretty much yup.. But I'm also asking if whiteflash's assessment of their diamond colors r also spot on? As compared to the Gia standard...

 

[Gypsy]

Just. Buy. A. GIA. Stone.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Pretty much yup.. But I'm also asking if whiteflash's assessment of their diamond colors r also spot on? As compared to the Gia standard...

WhiteFlash does not assess the color of their diamonds. They send their diamonds to AGS. Why would you have GIA grading done? If you are concerned about the color, I suppose the thing to do is have it graded or appraised during the return period. My personal opinion is that AGS is softer on color grading when the color is borderline and not in general with every stone. So only if your stone just happens to be at the bottom of it's color grade do I think it would be in danger of getting a lower color grade from GIA. I have seen it happen many times here (and I did have a GIA stone regraded by AGS a color grade higher when I later sold the diamond), but I have bought several diamonds from WF and have felt the color grading was fine and saw no need to have the stones regraded or appraised.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi there,
Has anyone ever bought a Whiteflash ags expert selection G over 1.5 cts?
If so, ever had it independently appraised?
I'm paranoid that the G I'm looking at would be downgraded by GIA if I ever had it certified by them...
What have ur experience been of WF Gs? What was the body color like?
I hate to see any warmth in my diamond and I read somewhere that someone's WF F had discernible warmth...
But that they were color sensitive... As am I...

An independent appraiser could be invaluable for you should you buy an AGS graded diamond, or just stick to GIA if that's a ' mind clean' issue.

 

[TC1987]

Does Whiteflash have a diamond colorimeter like GOG does? If so, have them analyze it to see what their machine says before you buy it.

 

[Frenchtoast]

Hi tc
Is the colorimeter accurate to GIA standards?
if so I will ask them
Thanks for that tip

 

[MarionC]

I hate to see any warmth in my diamond and I read somewhere that someone's WF F had discernible warmth...
But that they were color sensitive... As am I...

I wish you could remember where you read that...maybe I posted it, but I don't remember doing so.
My AGS WF ACA F has always looked *slightly* warm to me...I love the diamond-it's gorgeous! but was always a little puzzled by the slight color, as I had assumed F was pretty darn colorless. That said, I'm not sure anyone else would see the warmth without studying it as much as I have : )
I suppose it depends on how color sensitive one's eyes are.
FYI...My last AGS ACA was a G and had less warmth than my current F.

edit: and to confuse things even more, my independent appraiser said my current F is indeed an F.

Sounds as though you are a good candidate for D!

 

[TC1987]

I don't know the answer to the color accuracy question. I believe AGS uses a colorimeter for preliminary grading only. Probably GIA does, too. But I don't know who uses what equipment and to what standard(s) it might be calibrated.

I have an AGS graded F that I bought from Good Old Gold. Previous to that, I owned a GIA graded G from GOG, which I traded in on the upgrade. The G was smaller but also always looked colorless to me. The AGS F has a hint of warmth, but it's larger than the G, so I don't know how much can be due to the greater mass of the stone vs. a difference between GIA and AGS standards.

If a stone is borderline between grades, two graders might differ and one grader might be a little harsher on it than the other.

I just thought if the colorimeter says H or near-H and you wanted a definite G (or G and you wanted F or whatever,) then a result like that might immediately help you to rule out that stone.

 

[msop04]

I don't really understand why you would send it to GIA for grading... why don't you just look at it with your OWN eyes?? If you think you see tint, then maybe send to GIA -- or better, just exchange it for a GIA stone.

FWIW, if GIA came back with a color of G, would you still be satisfied? What if GIA said "F" -- then would it appear "more colorless" to you or would you still wanna send it off to an independent appraiser??

Just buy a GIA G or better and be done with it. It's just not worth the worry, IMHO...

 

[Frenchtoast]

haha jimmianne, perhaps it was ur post i read... i have been reading so much of this forum.....
made me a bit paranoid i guess...
i was all ready to go with my AGS WF ES stone until i read something about how AGS grades are always more lenient by a grade..
i was in the market for an F... so G was a bit of a compromise given my budget... but i do not want to end up with a GIA H....
and its not possible for me to see the stone in person as i don't live anywhere near the wf store...

WF sent me a pic of my AGS diamond along with an E and F.. to be honest all of them look a bit tinted to me.. warm... but could it be the lighting? the E looks more like what i would expect an F to be...
please tell me if its all in my head..

i guess if GIA told me it was really an F... going on the color i see i would make that judgement whether to go up a color next upgrade...
but i guess a GIA grade that matches AGS would put my mind at ease because firstly i wouldn't be overpaying.. difference in G and H is apparently 8 to 10%.. thats a lot.

the GIA G i am also considering is 0.15mm smaller in size.. its a vs2 and costs the same as the age G si1... they have both got excellent asset images.
equal.. only difference is size and color.. i shall post images for u guys to see...


this is the bigger diamond on the far right, AGS G.



this is the slightly smaller. GIA G..
do u guys see a difference??

 

[Frenchtoast]

given that they would both face up really bright due to their great cut, is it better to go with the slightly bigger diamond? even tho it has an SI1 grade?
grade setter was twinning wisps but i was assured that they don't affect optics and the stone is eye clean from 6 inches ..

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Hi tc
Is the colorimeter accurate to GIA standards?
if so I will ask them
Thanks for that tip

No, you cannot 100% count on that. You need someone like David Atlas who has that plus GIA master stones to make his decision. Dave has done this before when someone had a diamond graded one thing and another appraiser said a grade or two lower. Good Old Gold has a colorimeter that has proven to be correct when I had a stone double graded and with other stones I have looked at as well. But you need a gemologist with GIA masters as well as a colorimeter because they are not 100% accurate.

WhiteFlash does not provide this and I would not ask them. You buy their stones because they offer the proof of the cut quality with AGS grading plus their excellent idealscope and ASET images.

In the case of GIA stones, you have to use a vendor who can prove the cut quality with IS, ASET, AGS light performance software, etc.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The WF picture shows the color difference pretty well. The second picture with the G VS2 has light that is too bright and you cannot see the correct color difference. But in reality, we are not looking at stones from the side, we look at them from the top.

I'd like to see the grading report on both stones.

It is absolutely not true that AGS is always more lenient. I have an AGS stone right now that scored a solid I color on the colorimeter and another I looked at in person scored low I color. I could see the difference and chose the higher I color. I felt the other might have come back as a J from an appraiser or GIA. As I said before, I think it is probably borderline color stones that may be boosted and certainly not all.

 

[msop04]

The WF picture shows the color difference pretty well. The second picture with the G VS2 has light that is too bright and you cannot see the correct color difference. But in reality, we are not looking at stones from the side, we look at them from the top.

+1 -- OP, unless you're planning on setting the stone upside down, then you're really just making yourself a little cuckoo.

 

[luvdajules]

Hi OP, GOG will only do colorimeter on their own stones, understandably. They have an F and a G superior cuts but slightly smaller than you are looking, around 7.6mm and 7.7mm. Here's one http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/12437/ It's good to know what your priorities are and stick to them, either going a little down in size or upping the budget to find your perfect fit. I know the selecting and purchasing process can be irksome and stressful, but hang in there, it's worth it in the end!

 

[Frenchtoast]

yes i am going a little cuckooooo.

WF did tell me my diamond is a true G... they should know right?

By the way, should Gs look so tinted? if thats a G what would an H and I look like? looks really warm against the white paper.. i thought G was supposed to be RARE white.. so ivory?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Get the WF stone unless your true desire is colorless D-F.

Here is a great tutorial on diamond color. G is at the top of the NEAR colorless range, so it clearly is not colorless.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Color/Colorless/ (and the pages following)

I think there is a color video, too. I will look.

 

[Frenchtoast]

http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104070154003-PLDQRH.PDF

and for the other one..


which one is better?
they both have perfect aset images..

 

[Frenchtoast]

the goodoldgold link is very good....

the G does not look white or near colorless to me.. it looks warm...

also.. the WF G looks more like a G-H when i compare it to the G and H on GOG info page...

 

[MarionC]

You can't tell color accurately on the computer, but would have to see the stones side-by-side in person...

 

[msop04]

You can't tell color accurately on the computer, but would have to see the stones side-by-side in person...

+1 This is kinda what I was thinking too, Jimmianne...

OP, a G diamond should NOT look ivory -- at all. It's very possible your computer screen is giving that impression. Go to a reputable jeweler who sells GIA stones and compare F/G/H and I'll bet you'll see that G is plenty white. Also, there is no need whatsoever to view the diamond face down. View it from the side and from the top, as that's how it will be seen IRL (but mostly from the top).

Edited for typos.

 

[TC1987]

the goodoldgold link is very good....

the G does not look white or near colorless to me.. it looks warm...

also.. the WF G looks more like a G-H when i compare it to the G and H on GOG info page...

But you are looking at a 1.8ct G. This is why I abandoned upgrading: Larger stone mass concentrates tint more. A 2ct G looks much more tinted to me than a 1ct or 1.2ct G RB does. If I want to go up in size and still see the same relative whiteness, then I'd also need to go up in color grades, too. You could look at diamonds with blue fluorescence. It will act as a "bluing agent", whitening the apparent color *if* UV light is present. And it mostly helps the face-up color, not the side view. If the stone is in a setting where you don't see much of the profile, then maybe the apparent face-up color is what you should focus on.

If you need icy white or colorless, then I think the answer is you must drop G and H from consideration and look at GIA F and up. I was going to link that same GOG page for comparison purposes.

 

[Daisyoz]

I have an ACA 1.5 G VS1 in a solitaire setting that exposes lots of side surfaces. I am also quite sensitive to colour, part of my job involes picking the correct shades of white. I wouldnt in any way call the diamond warm. Face up my diamond looks very white, no hint of yellowness at all. Of course it also sparkles gorgeously. I definitely do not see yellow tint in my diamond at all on the side. It is more translucent, as opposed to the icy white of the colour D-E. I look at it and I know it is not a D or E but I can't see any warmth either. I definitely can see warmth in an I Hearts on Fire (only on the side) and in a J OEC face up (still oh so gorgeous sparkling diamond). My hubby can not see any difference between D and G in the store.

I am also aware that I do trade colour for size and cut. For the same price I could have had an F Signature Ideal from Bluenile with the same size or even slightly smaller E. But what matters more to me is sparkle and fire and having a true HnA stone. The G does not bother me one bit. If I had put it in a halo I would even be happy to go with an H and get bigger size. However, this is all "mind" issue. If your eyes like the icy white colour of D-E, then get an E, an GIA E as well for better mind clean and drop in size or cut. My sister in law got a D VVS1 that is smaller than mine but put it in a larger setting and her ring still looks substantial. They could have gotten an E VVS2 that wouldn't look any different and save almost 9k (they did look at one for comparision) but they wanted the best specs for mind clean as that was important to them so went with D.

 

[ecf8503]

But you are looking at a 1.8ct G. This is why I abandoned upgrading: Larger stone mass concentrates tint more. A 2ct G looks much more tinted to me than a 1ct or 1.2ct G RB does. If I want to go up in size and still see the same relative whiteness, then I'd also need to go up in color grades, too. You could look at diamonds with blue fluorescence. It will act as a "bluing agent", whitening the apparent color *if* UV light is present. And it mostly helps the face-up color, not the side view. If the stone is in a setting where you don't see much of the profile, then maybe the apparent face-up color is what you should focus on.

If you need icy white or colorless, then I think the answer is you must drop G and H from consideration and look at GIA F and up. I was going to link that same GOG page for comparison purposes.

Ditto all this.

Maybe you should look at DEF w/ blue fluor (go look at Brain Gavin's Blue line). And don't compromise on cut quality, because an ideal cut stone will face up larger and whiter than a poorly cut one.

I have a D w SBF, several G's of various sizes, and some I/J colors as well. I can see tint in the G's - so no you are not losing your mind, you are just very color sensitive and have talked yourself into the mindset of "tint is bad". It's not - it's just different.

You know when you go the paint store and look for "white" paint? There's cool white, neutral, and warm. But they're all white, kwim? Same with diamonds. But tint isn't bad, it's just personal preference. I love my J's as much as my D - they each have their own "personality".

If your eyes and mind prefer icy white, the blue fluor will help that even more. I can see the fluor in my D in the sun, and it is beautiful!

 

[oldminer]

An AGS G color is likely going to be a GIA G color diamond. If it isn't then it won't be less than a GIA H color. However, GIA is not totally consistent with color grading every G stone a G color. They try very hard, but not every grading result is scientifically accurate as it is not quite a science at this time. Colorimeters are entertaining tools. You can't argue with their objective results, but they cannot possibly grade the color of diamonds correctly to GIA standards with repeatability or consistency. They are cool and slick, but not the right tool for diamond color grading which happens to be far a more complex challenge.

Any lab which competes with GIA has to grade no harsher than GIA already does as the risk of losing their clientele is a business concern which always has an important place in what grade to issue. AGSL is doing their utmost to give GIA results with GIA standards of performance, but they also must compete to maintain their small market share. If they graded harsher than GIA, they'd be gone very quickly. The need for exacting accuracy and the need to be harsher, might lead occasionally to being a tiny bit softer in grading, but AGSL is no scofflaw or rogue lab, not by a longshot.

If you are more concerned by the grade on the paper and who the paper is from, then it would be wise for you to say, "I'll buy the diamond with a GIA report of "G" color. Send it to the lab for me and I will pay for the extra cost of the document" That is the right way to get what will make you totally content and it is not a lot of money to get satisfaction and assurance. I like to believe that I can grade the color of diamonds s well as the next experienced diamond appraiser, but I have proven to myself time and time again that my own grading does not match GIA color grading with superhuman perfection. Human graders have about a 65% chance of agreeing on a color grade using the same master diamond set. That leaves a large margin of stones where agreement is not going to happen.
The other issue is that if you see more color in a diamond than you personally want to have, then you need a different diamond. No matter what the paperwork might say, your eyes may tell you what you need to know to make a decision. There is no harm in trusting your eyes instead of a diamond grading report. It is your choice. to trust whatever you decide to put your faith in.

 

[qwedsy]

I have a small half carat OEC graded AGS G on my new wedding ring, and it definitely has a buttery tint to it. I would even say that it shows most of the time rather than at times. I felt a bit confused that I could see the tint so easily, as the (very PS reputable) vendor said that I could safely go as low as I without seeing any tint. Well turns out, I was lucky to stay at G, since any more colour would definitely bother me big time. With the tint of the G I can learn to live with, but it's a noticeable hint of buttery yellow - definitely

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I agree with seeing diamond color in person, but not at a jewelry store because their lighting does not allow you to see color accurately at all, usually. Can you just order the WF diamond and see if you like it?

Great post, Dave!