White diamonds vs Colored diamonds.

[smitcompton]

Hi,

This is a question that I was wondering about. There is so much discussion and fuss made about the cut grade of a white round brilliant diamond. but when it come to colored diamonds it is said that the color is the most important item. Why is sparkle so important in white diamonds but not colored. If most people on this forum look for the most sparkle they can get from a diamond why shouldn't colored diamonds be expected to sparkle just as much. I do understand color is the most important thing, but why not sparkle since you make so much out of white diamonds. Why do we need so much sparkle in white and not colored? I
have said they same thing about 3 different ways. It doesn't make sense to me.

Annette

 

[Karl_K]

Sparkle is not a good comparison.
Best color is achieved by long light paths, light travels a longer way in the stone. This is not conductive for high brightness but can have a lot of sparkle in the right lighting not so much in others.(crushed ice)
Higher brightness is achieved by short efficient light paths.
The light travels through less material picking up less color
It can and generally does have fewer sparkle events than a long light path stone in lighting highly conductive to sparkle.
However it will be brighter in other lighting.

It would take the exact right shade and tone of color in the material to be cut into a brighter cut which is extremely rare.

 

[kenny]

Why is sparkle so important in white diamonds but not colored. ...

Of course Karl is right.
But I'll emphasize the main reason FCDs are not cut for light performance.
Profit.

D-Z diamonds that are cut for optimum light performance are more expensive than those cut for maximum weight.
Why?
The proportions required for good light performance requires polishing away more of the rough's weight than just cutting for the highest weight, or the highest weight that barely squeezes into GIA's loosy-goosey so-called Excellent cut grade.

The diamond industry is not a charity; rather it's in business to make as much money as possible.
Rough material that has even a remote chance of winning GIA's coveted FCD category is way more expensive per carat than D-Z rough.

Here's an example from personal experience.
13 Years ago I paid Leibish $36K for a 10-point Fancy Red radiant.
It was graded VS1 by their in-house GG, Shmulik Polnauer, a son of the owner, Leibish Polnauer.
Recently Leibish listed another 10-point Fancy Red heart with in-house grading of SI2 for $64.1K.
See screen-captures below.
It's no longer on their website, so perhaps it sold.

Cutting FCD rough like this for the best light performance, rather than for the more-valuable GIA grade possible, would be financial suicide.

As an FCD buyer I'm an oddball.
When I shop, light performance IS one thing I look for, of course usually in vain.
When told, "Light performance doesn't matter with FCDs." I ignore that and keep shopping for a combo of color and the best light performance I can find.
This means I can not be in a hurry, and have funds available to pull the trigger immediately when a special one gets listed.

Once in a rare blue moon the earth produces a rough FCD that naturally happens to be shaped by the earth to end up with good light performance because its proportions coincidently coincide with those that produce good light performance.
A holy-grail FCD.

Of Course, if you are Musk, Bezos, or Oprah, all bets are off.
They could commission a Red, or Fancy Vivid Green, Blue, Orange, Violet, cut for optimum light performance.

Here are two Leibish listings.
My $36K Fancy Red 13 yrs ago, then the 64.1K that recently sold.

 

[hiratop]

Strong vivid or deep round stones have enough colour to be cut into ideal cuts and still remain strong vivid or deep colour stones. But weighing less, of course. If that outweighs the additional sizzle is in the eye and wallet of the beholder.
Here's an ideal cut intense green round:
https://www.leibish.com/green-diamonds/fancy-intense-green-round-62472
Probably the only ever cut, who knows.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

Your fancy red looks SO much better than the pear. All about knowing when to pull the trigger, I guess.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Your fancy red looks SO much better than the pear. All about knowing when to pull the trigger, I guess.

I was thinking the same thing, I much prefer Kenny’s fancy red.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi everyone!
It is important to put this in context.
The vast majority of diamonds that are polished are not fancy colored.
So there's a much smaller pool of cutters.
I agree with Kenny's overall point about the motivation - in any for-profit business, is to make the largest possible profit.
But the smaller market means there's also different potential for buyers.
I mean not that many .10ct diamonds sell for $36k.
My point is that you can use less than traditional methods in the design of cut with FCDs. The best cutters have been able to balance the profit motive while producing a beautifully crafted product.
It's just way different than cutting Round Brilliant Diamonds.

My outlook on beauty in diamonds was heavily influenced by colored diamonds when I first started posting here. Veterans will remember wars where I was the "defender of wonk"
In the ensuing years, I have broadened that perspective.
That includes us becoming a Crafted by Infinity dealer way back when.
But honestly- back in the day, I really didn't think the small difference from really well cut to Super Ideal was worth the difference in price. So we didn't last more than a year or two as a dealer.
Oddly enough, Lab Diamonds have gotten me much more into the "super ideal" sort of look - and science. I can really appreciate the difference now that the financial aspect is pretty much removed.
Comparing a 2carat G/VS1 Earth diamond, super ideal for $36k to Kenny's red is apples and elephants.
Without a doubt, a red diamond has gone up drastically in asking price while the colorless one might be the same or less.

I do understand color is the most important thing, but why not sparkle since you make so much out of white diamonds. Why do we need so much sparkle in white and not colored?

SO- to answer your main, and very good question:
FCD's are judged by different factors than RBC colorless diamonds.
I love the fact that overall beauty is a determining factor.
I remember a case from many years ago where we had a client looking for a 2ct Fancy Vivid Yellow.
There were two candidates.
One was Internally Flawless, No Fl, and the other was VS1 - Medium Blue.
The Medium Blue stone was like a storybook Canary.
BRIGHT yellow.
Oh- and the cut?
54.9% depth. MEnaing considerably more shallow than widely "recommended" numbers.
When I held the two stones next to each other the IF looked pale.
And much smaller.
Somehow, this shallow, fluorescent diamond rocked the world of the more traditionally cut IF.
AND_ the MB stone was about 30% more expensive. In general, Medium or Strong Blue Fluorescence decimates the market price of Yellow diamonds
He went for the more beautiful stone.
FCDs are judged for beauty- the rarity makes a difference here too.
The people who love Super Ideal will point out specific areas of "sparkle" that are important to them. Fire, Scintillation for example.

If my client back then wanted a colorless 2ct Cushion, there'd have been many more candidates.

nice discussion- thanks for starting it!

PPS- I'm like a pack rat with pics and stuff.....here's the super shallow MB Vivid

 

[RunningwithScissors]

Hi everyone!
It is important to put this in context.
The vast majority of diamonds that are polished are not fancy colored.
So there's a much smaller pool of cutters.
I agree with Kenny's overall point about the motivation - in any for-profit business, is to make the largest possible profit.
But the smaller market means there's also different potential for buyers.
I mean not that many .10ct diamonds sell for $36k.
My point is that you can use less than traditional methods in the design of cut with FCDs. The best cutters have been able to balance the profit motive while producing a beautifully crafted product.
It's just way different than cutting Round Brilliant Diamonds.

My outlook on beauty in diamonds was heavily influenced by colored diamonds when I first started posting here. Veterans will remember wars where I was the "defender of wonk"
In the ensuing years, I have broadened that perspective.
That includes us becoming a Crafted by Infinity dealer way back when.
But honestly- back in the day, I really didn't think the small difference from really well cut to Super Ideal was worth the difference in price. So we didn't last more than a year or two as a dealer.
Oddly enough, Lab Diamonds have gotten me much more into the "super ideal" sort of look - and science. I can really appreciate the difference now that the financial aspect is pretty much removed.
Comparing a 2carat G/VS1 Earth diamond, super ideal for $36k to Kenny's red is apples and elephants.
Without a doubt, a red diamond has gone up drastically in asking price while the colorless one might be the same or less.




SO- to answer your main, and very good question:
FCD's are judged by different factors than RBC colorless diamonds.
I love the fact that overall beauty is a determining factor.
I remember a case from many years ago where we had a client looking for a 2ct Fancy Vivid Yellow.
There were two candidates.
One was Internally Flawless, No Fl, and the other was VS1 - Medium Blue.
The Medium Blue stone was like a storybook Canary.
BRIGHT yellow.
Oh- and the cut?
54.9% depth. MEnaing considerably more shallow than widely "recommended" numbers.
When I held the two stones next to each other the IF looked pale.
And much smaller.
Somehow, this shallow, fluorescent diamond rocked the world of the more traditionally cut IF.
AND_ the MB stone was about 30% more expensive. In general, Medium or Strong Blue Fluorescence decimates the market price of Yellow diamonds
He went for the more beautiful stone.
FCDs are judged for beauty- the rarity makes a difference here too.
The people who love Super Ideal will point out specific areas of "sparkle" that are important to them. Fire, Scintillation for example.

If my client back then wanted a colorless 2ct Cushion, there'd have been many more candidates.

nice discussion- thanks for starting it!

PPS- I'm like a pack rat with pics and stuff.....here's the super shallow MB Vivid

Oh wow that's a gorgeous diamond!

 

[Karl_K]

pinks and yellows

https://rapaport.com/news/rio-tinto-to-hold-tender-of-87-fancy-colored-diamonds/

www.pricescope.com

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

Hi everyone!
It is important to put this in context.
The vast majority of diamonds that are polished are not fancy colored.
So there's a much smaller pool of cutters.
I agree with Kenny's overall point about the motivation - in any for-profit business, is to make the largest possible profit.
But the smaller market means there's also different potential for buyers.
I mean not that many .10ct diamonds sell for $36k.
My point is that you can use less than traditional methods in the design of cut with FCDs. The best cutters have been able to balance the profit motive while producing a beautifully crafted product.
It's just way different than cutting Round Brilliant Diamonds.

My outlook on beauty in diamonds was heavily influenced by colored diamonds when I first started posting here. Veterans will remember wars where I was the "defender of wonk"
In the ensuing years, I have broadened that perspective.
That includes us becoming a Crafted by Infinity dealer way back when.
But honestly- back in the day, I really didn't think the small difference from really well cut to Super Ideal was worth the difference in price. So we didn't last more than a year or two as a dealer.
Oddly enough, Lab Diamonds have gotten me much more into the "super ideal" sort of look - and science. I can really appreciate the difference now that the financial aspect is pretty much removed.
Comparing a 2carat G/VS1 Earth diamond, super ideal for $36k to Kenny's red is apples and elephants.
Without a doubt, a red diamond has gone up drastically in asking price while the colorless one might be the same or less.




SO- to answer your main, and very good question:
FCD's are judged by different factors than RBC colorless diamonds.
I love the fact that overall beauty is a determining factor.
I remember a case from many years ago where we had a client looking for a 2ct Fancy Vivid Yellow.
There were two candidates.
One was Internally Flawless, No Fl, and the other was VS1 - Medium Blue.
The Medium Blue stone was like a storybook Canary.
BRIGHT yellow.
Oh- and the cut?
54.9% depth. MEnaing considerably more shallow than widely "recommended" numbers.
When I held the two stones next to each other the IF looked pale.
And much smaller.
Somehow, this shallow, fluorescent diamond rocked the world of the more traditionally cut IF.
AND_ the MB stone was about 30% more expensive. In general, Medium or Strong Blue Fluorescence decimates the market price of Yellow diamonds
He went for the more beautiful stone.
FCDs are judged for beauty- the rarity makes a difference here too.
The people who love Super Ideal will point out specific areas of "sparkle" that are important to them. Fire, Scintillation for example.

If my client back then wanted a colorless 2ct Cushion, there'd have been many more candidates.

nice discussion- thanks for starting it!

PPS- I'm like a pack rat with pics and stuff.....here's the super shallow MB Vivid

Defender of Wonk! Best title ever. You are a knight defending wonky cuts. Made my day!